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Post by katie on Aug 17, 2015 14:50:52 GMT
(Figured I'd try to jumpstart another discussion around here, heehee...)
So, thoughts on why Sandor said and did absolutely nothing while Tyrion slapped Joffrey around in AGOT? (a) He's Joff's sworn shield, and (b) he hates Tyrion with a passion, so why wouldn't this have garnered no other reaction from him than a terse warning that Joffrey would remember it followed by a laugh? Is there some rule that Sandor is not allowed to interfere in family squabbles, even if the person he's sworn to protect is getting smacked around? Or is this meant to be an early indication for the reader that Sandor isn't as loyal to Joffrey as people seem to assume he is? Thoughts??
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 17, 2015 17:00:28 GMT
I think this is D&D's choice, I guess. I can't imagine book Sandor reacting that way. Until he met Sansa and started thinking things over I don't think he questioned any of his masters' bahaviour however bad it was. I may be wrong but I see this as another bad choice in the TV 'adaptation'. Was Sandor loyal to Joff? Well, he had no choice or he never knew he had one as he was brought up depending on the Lannisters for everything, including his own survival. He owed fealty to his liege lords and that was that. Feudalism was like that and this is what Sandor's relation with the Lannisters resembles.
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Post by katie on Aug 17, 2015 18:26:45 GMT
Oh no, I'm going purely by the book here (which did, oddly enough, play out nearly word-for-word on the show):
And that's it. No attempt to intercede or tell Tyrion to stop or anything. And considering how much we know Sandor hates Tyrion, you'd think he'd look for any excuse to drop-kick him across the yard, LOL. But he actually seems amused by it. Maybe he, like everyone else, just likes seeing Joffrey being put in his place every now and again? (Something he himself is not really able to do...)
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 17, 2015 19:24:15 GMT
Yeah, you're right! He did nothing about it! I had forgotten that passage. My only excuse is that they've made up so much in the show that I get things mixed up, lol. I guess he only does what he has to do and that doesn't include interfering with what one Lannister does to another. I don' t think Sandor cared for any Lannister, he just did his job. He was kinder to Tommen but he probably didn't like Joff and knew he was a little shit from an early age. Sandor seems a good judge of character and he dislikes Tyrion. The werewolves also disliked him when he was at Winterfell. Why do you think this is so? Does it mean he is not a good guy after all or does it mean anything else, or perhaps nothing? Children and animals are thought to be good judges of character, at least in stories. In real life this is false and many bad people love and are loved by their pets and trusted by people. But why does George show how the Hound and the direwolves dislike Tyrion?
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Post by katie on Aug 17, 2015 19:46:06 GMT
Perhaps it was merely supposed to be symbolic of Wolves vs Lions, AKA Starks vs Lannisters? This was at the very beginning of AGoT, if I recall, before the shit really hit the fan between these two families, so maybe it was just meant as simple foreshadowing? (Like the dead direwolf impaled by the stag's antlers)
I'm also put in mind of how House Clegane was founded -- when 3 dogs (not wolves) killed a female lion. Sandor's whole house exists because of the death of a lion. That's fascinating to me. So perhaps Sandor is just predisposed not to like the Lannisters, LOL (though that doesn't explain Gregor.... but then few things explain Gregor) Isn't it ironic, then, that the current Lord of House Clegane (for all intents and purposes) is now the champion of the foremost female lion of House Lannister?
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 17, 2015 20:01:10 GMT
That makes sense. I mean the Stark symbol, the direwolves disliking the lion, Tyrion. And Sandor is meant to change sides and be linked to the Starks, it makes sense for him to show some sign of what he will do in the future. I have often wondered why the direwolves growled at Tyrion but this is not said about the other Lannisters. Anyway, I think he is a Targaryen with his white-blond hair and lifelong fascination with dragons. That scene, with the dirwolves growling makes me wonder why because this is usually seen in stories as a sign that the animals have spotted an evil character. On the other hand, Sandor likes animals and they like him.
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Post by katie on Aug 17, 2015 20:58:50 GMT
It's interesting because the direwolves don't actually spend that much time with the Lannisters, and the ones that do get bit (Tyrion and Joffrey). The only two direwolves that leave Winterfell with the royal procession are Lady and Nymeria, both of whom don't make it past the Riverlands. Isn't that interesting? Cersei had previously expressed major dismay at bringing ANY direwolves to King's Landing, and lo and behold, none of them did. I often wonder about that.... about George's decision to not only deliberately keep the direwolves out of King's Landing but to remove both female Starks from their wolves.
I dunno if I am 100% sold on the Tyrion Is a Targ theory, but not for the reasons most people have for being against it, LOL. I'm not against it per se, but since we already have R+L=J, it just feels a little cliché to have all these secret Targs running around. That and all the constant remarks by people about Tyrion being most like Tywin, moreso than either Jaime or Cersei. Unless that's meant to be some kind of dramatic irony. ;-)
I agree, though there's not a whole lot of evidence for that, other than Meribald's Dog, LOL. And Sandor does say that he likes dogs more than people, so we can only assume they like him back. ;-) I do recall that Lady did growl at Sandor once...
Okay, maybe not exactly a "growl", just a "warning", LOL, but it's interesting that she "moved between them". And Sandor doesn't seem particularly intimidated:
While everyone else is ready to pounce (including Barristan and Renly), Sandor is making jokes. ;-)
Makes one wonder, though, why Lady didn't "rumble a warning" at Joffrey, the TRUE villain! Then again, maybe Lady is merely reflecting her mistress's personality at the time -- trying to be as well-behaved as possible for Joffrey but being cautious with the Hound.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 17, 2015 22:20:03 GMT
That's good, Lady showing the same feelings as Sansa. So Joff was bitten as well? I don't remember that, but it really is interesting. My belief that Tyrion is a Targaryen comes more as a feeling than anything. His whitish hair, his eyes of different colours, how he is fascinanted by dragons. Even his use of fire (green fire in his case), how he's not afraid of fire. He's a little person but larger than life anyway. He stands "tall as a king in Winterfell" when Joff meets him and the Lannisters are neither kings nor all that great as men. The Targaryens are, for the good and for the bad, they tend to be extraordinary, like Tyrion.
As for Jon, well, he may have Targaryen blood but he is a Stark. He is not Ned's son but he is Lyanna's son and a Stark at heart. Tyrion makes more sense as a Targaryen than him by character and also because he is weird, different, and most Targaryens are.
As for having three Targaryens, it may make sense to have so many if they are meant to ride the three dragons. One woman and two men. It's the right number. With Targaryens it's usually two women and a man, but this time we have Dany, so it will be one woman and two men as the dragon riders.
of course I'm not sure or anything but it makes sense to me from the narrative point of view.
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Post by katie on Aug 17, 2015 23:20:48 GMT
And I like that, when Lady "grumbled" at Sandor, Sansa's immediate instinct was to crouch down and reign her in. Almost like when, moments later, Sansa corrects Joffrey that it was Ser Ilyn who frightened her, not the Hound. ;-)
Yes, by Nymeria down by the ruby ford. 'Tis the reason both Sansa and Arya lost their direwolves. :-(
True, but perhaps all those clues linking Tyrion and dragons are merely meant to foreshadow him being a dragon-rider; he doesn't necessarily have to be a Targaryen for that to happen, does he? I think the fact that he could ride a dragon and NOT be a Targ is what would make him extraordinary. ;-)
I mean, I couldn't care less either way, LOL, just playing Devil's Advocate.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 18, 2015 0:04:52 GMT
Yes, I remember when Joff was bitten by the river but I thought you meant at Winterfell. Tyrion did nothing to make the direwolves dislike him or feel threatened by him whereas Nymeria bit Joff to defend Arya. What I mean is that the animals felt there was something wrong with Tyrion but not with Joff or Sandor. Lady just warned Sandor and Nymeria only attacked Joff to defend Arya. Tyrion did nothing to deserve the animals anoimosity but he got it anyway. It has always attracted my attention but what Lady and Nymeria did felt normal to me. I still find the scene where Tyrion is bitten strange, as though it means something. By then, I sympathised with him and he treated Bran very well, that's why I thought it was so strange. The direwolves identify danger before the Stark kids do and they are right, as we saw with Ghost and Greywind. So, are they right to see Tyrion as a threat for the Starks?
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 18, 2015 0:59:49 GMT
Okay, so consider this. When Tyrion returns to Winterfell and the three dire wolves, Summer, Shaggydog, and Grey Wind, corner him and try to attack, right? Is this meant to parallel the Clegane dogs attacking the lion in the autumn grass? Also, note that "the helm turned his laugh into a hollow rumble" and Lady, just a few chapters later "rumbles" a warning at Sandor when she senses Sansa is distressed. Dire wolves as dogs, the Dog paralleled to the dire wolf?
On the one hand, I don't think Sandor particularly cared about Joffrey, and I doubt he got involved in Lannister squabbling, in general. However, the threat is unmistakable when he finds "Clegane looming overhead like a cliff." He laughs, but Sandor often laughs when something isn't particularly funny or when he is upset. In fact, I'm inclined to say a laughing Hound is an angry or upset Hound.
At any rate, it's no secret that I don't like Tyrion (though he's a good character to read about), and I think we are meant to see something in the fact that the wolves threaten Tyrion. I sometimes wonder if Sandor's dislike of Tyrion really is just animal level instinct. Not that I haven't read good interpretations of why Sandor might hate Tyrion, but on a symbolic level, it's the instinctual hatred of a dog and a cat/lion.
I would not be surprised is Tyrion was a secret Targaryean. In Jon's chapter in AGoT, where he gets drunk at the feast, he has a conversation with Benjen, his uncle, and then he has a conversation with Tyrion...maybe an uncle, if the secret Targ theory is true. And then we end the chapter with this line:
That first bolded line is an interesting bit of chiasmus, the words mirroring each other. Jon and Tyrion conversing, a bastard with a bastard. It may not mean anything, but like eyesofmist said, it makes sense narratively if it is true.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 18, 2015 12:04:53 GMT
This quote is the one I mentioned before but I was using my mobile and couldn't find them. I agree completely that Tyrion standing tall as a king means something and I think it means he has royal blood,Targaryen blood,he may be destined to become a king himself,like his ancestors,like his father. The first bolded like is very telling and you explained why perfectly. George is telling the reader, very subltly that we are in front of another bastard and not in the figurative sense but in the literal sense as well. Tyrion is a bastard himself and it is a great irony that he is the one among Tywin's children that is more like him,because he didn't father him. If this is true,Tyrion's quest towards Dany and the dragons appears in a different light.I thought it was petty and and treacherous of him,as a Lannister,to seek the Targaryens to invade Westeros but perhaps he is just fulfilling his fate,like in a Greek tragedy,he is urged by destiny to do what a Targaryen must do. He even killed Tywin and in a strange way, he didn't become a kinslayer (kinslayers are doomed in this universe but he seems to be protected by the gods, destiny or whatever it is),on the contrarty, he avenged his own father,whom Jaime had killed. This feels like a Greek tragedy.
Tywin's son,Jaime, killed Tyrion's father,Aerys and Jaime himself made it possible for Tyrion to kill Tywin by setting him free and saving his life but this is no soap opera,those apparently random facts are all linked as if set in a chain designed by fate. Jaime killed Aerys to stop him because he was about to burn the city using greenfire and years later Tyrion (Aery's son)defended that same city under siege from another army (Stannis's) using his father's greenfire. So, it makes sense for him to find Dany,it's written on the stars even if he doesn't know why. I also think that you do have to be a Targaryen to ride a dragon because nobody else aparpt from the Targs ever managed to do so, as far as we know.
Jon, Dany and Tyrion have something else in common, their births. their mothers died after giving them birth,the died in childbirth,the three of them. This wasn't uncommon in the past but in ASoIaF,I don't remember any other women said to have died this way,as common as it was in past days. There's something else, rape. Aerys raped his wife, Dany's mother and he may have raped Joanna too,thus fathering Tyrion. Raeghar was believed to have raped Lyanna although he probably didn't and they loved each other. Jon,Tyrion and Dany are all natural leaders,the three of them,as if their royal blood had something to do with this (which doesn't mean I believe myself there's nothing specail in royalty,but this is a magical universe,not real life).They have too many things in common for this to be casual. Something else,the three of them lost their fathers when they were baby's and not by natural causes,they were killed. One man and two women usually were the riders of the drangons, in this case we have one woman, Dany, and two men but it still makes sense. She is the centre, the only one known to be a Targaryn from the start, so it makes sense for the other two,the secret Targs, to be men and for her to stay the central rider,so to speak.
Of course I may be completely wrong,but it makes sense to me,at least.It's consistent with the narrative,I think.
...yet not all bastards need be dwarfs. And a few words later it is said that "Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king", as if he needn't be dwarf either. Of course he is physically small but may be great as a man,as if his condition as a dwarf had a symbolic meaning and wasn't just something physicall but meant something. Perhaps he can become great,he is not what he seems.
And what about Sandor wanting to dip him in fire. I can't remember if he said greenfire or any kind of fire instead of killing him. He wants him burned and not just killed. Too much hatred,because we know Sandor can't imagine anything worse than being burned as a man who doesn't fear death but abhors fire himself.Dipping a Targaryen in fire seems oddly appropriate for an enemy to do,especially if this Targeryen is Aerys's son,the son of a man who liked to burn people alive and wanted to burn his own city.
Those three direwolves trying to attack a "lion",Tyrion,indeed resembles the three dogs defending their lord from a lioness.Very clever of you, sillier-things. I still believe Tyrion is not a lion,not a Lannister,but he still may be a threat for the direwolves' master,a Stark. Perhaps it doesn't matter what kind of "animal" the threat comes from (eitheir a lion or a dragon),what matters is how the direwolves defend their master and how the Clegane dog does the same,how similar they are,how loyal they are. In this scene, was there a threat for a Stark? Who was that Stark? Perhaps Bran? Rickon? I think Bran is the most important Stark for the big plot. Again I'm not sure or anything,but it makes sense to me,from a narrative point of view, a sort of different king Arthur,despite the appearences and how different their roles in the Resurrection of the land may be.
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 18, 2015 13:06:55 GMT
Tyrion may be a Targ but he's still a lion because of hi mother who was Tywin's close cousin. And you mention Jon, Dany, and Tyrion as the 3 heads of the dragon. I wonder if there might be a confrontation between the 3 Starks left who have pov: Arya, Bran, and Sansa. I'm currently disregarding Rickon and his "shaggy dog tale"
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 18, 2015 13:35:22 GMT
That's true, he is a lion anyway. Then the parallelism works perfectly,lol. I love this. Of course I'm not sure Tyrion is a Targ,but I have the impression that he is. The story works fine for me if he is. And you know that I don't like Tyrion at all,I'm like you in that respect.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 19, 2015 14:54:29 GMT
By the way, Katie pointed out first that Tyrion is a lion attacked by three dogs (the direwolves).Sometimes I mix up what both of you say after reading your posts. My mistake Katie. Good topic, by the way.
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