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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 22, 2015 15:15:20 GMT
 This picture shows a scene from the show,which I dislike and don't watch any more,but it reminded me that what was was terribly wrong with the White Walkers was their inability to beget children in a normal way,so they stole human babies and also turned dead people into White Walkers. Isn't this what happened to Wymar Royce in the prologue? It's not clear how one turns into a WW but theirs seems to be a race which can't survive by itself because it can't produce offspring by themselves. But are they the only case? There are hardly any baby's in ASoIaF. Dany can't have her baby and is supposed to be barren now, Cersei had three children fathered by her brother and the prophecy announces that she will lose the three of them,as if it was some sort of punishment for their parents' unnattural love. Lisa wanted a baby more than anything and her husband was unable to give her one. When she eventually had a baby she raised him in an unnatural way. Cat lost her babies too,one way or another,she saw her firstborn die in front of her. Cersei tried to kill all of Robert's children and Stannis had her heir burned alive,his only children now would be the horrible shadowbabies Melissandre brought to the world in a ghastly travesty of childbirth. Ramsay will never let Fat Walda's baby survive,and so on. It seems only Gilly's baby and Dalla's baby have survived so far.But Gilly's baby was also begotten in an unnatural way and only Sam made it possible for this baby not to be given to the White Walkers. Dalla died in childbirth,like Tyrion's mother,Dany's one and also Jon's. I guess something grand awaits this baby because he came into the world like the three head's of the dragon. Jon thinks this baby is very important,when in fact, he should be just another baby,but there aren't many in this story, are there? It's as if humanity was going barren,like the White Walkers. We also have Jon,who swore he would never father children and Dany,who can't have children any more. Perhaps Tyrion can, we have no indication that he can't. Anyway,I think this is just another symbol that winter is coming,that the land is going barren. On the onther hand we have a young girl who loves songs and stories from a past that was less bleak and whose dream is not becoming a queen,as some think,but having love and children in her life. We also have a man who hesitated before accepting his post as a KG,a high honour,because he still haboured the unlikely hope to have a wife,a family. Then this man travesls the Riverlands with a little girl,Arya,and people believe he is her father. As for Sansa,she is some sort of mother for Sweet Robin. Sandor and Sansa are attracted to each other but the song she sings to him before he leaves is a hymn to the Mother,she also prays to the Mother to protect him in battle.And Sandor looks a bit like Sansa's father, she even takes him for her father when he backs into him on their journey to KL. She also dreams she one day will have a girl who looks like Arya, the same girl people took for Sandor's more than once. My point is that there are no couple's in this story,none that have survived so far, and that without them the land will indeed be barren. Others loved but lost, but perhaps it will be different for Sandor and Sansa. And this wouldn't be a Rom Com occurrnece, it would be very important because it would be a symbol of renewal in an otherwise wasted land. I know I may be wrong,of course,but I think there are reasons to believe Sansa will hava a baby and I think Sandor will father this baby. Many may think Sansa is wrong,but perhaps hope is what the world needs. Utopia is impossible to achieve,but humanity will only improve trying to achieve unattainable ideals. The struggle for a better world is endless but we can't stop just because we think perfection is impossible. I guess this is what Sansa represents: innocence,youth,hope. A world without that is just barren land. Despite this,most dismiss her songs and her hopes,only Sandor wants her songs. He offered him a mother's song instead of a love song before he left,but both of them were bleeding when their "shared" that bed. That was a scene full of symbolism,as if a marriage and childbirth were being foreshadowed there. I think a sacred marriage was held there in some way,sealed by blood magic and green fire,but also accepted by the gods. That's why she sang a mother's song to him. |
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 23, 2015 17:55:35 GMT
My favorite topic!
You know I agree with you, and I think GRRM is following a very long tradition of wasteland/resurrection myths. And I agree with you that the lack of live or "naturally" born children is a problem. I have A LOT more I want to say about this, but I don't have time to post at the moment. But we've said it before, you don't have a character have her first period in such a dramatic way, have her associated with the Mother goddess and other mother imagery AND pair her sexual awakening with a man who is continually thrown in a fatherly role and associated with such symbolism without there being a baby at some point!
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Post by katie on Aug 23, 2015 20:40:31 GMT
I've been recovering at my mom's all week, and since she's in the middle of ASOS, I have been casually rereading the Sandor/Arya chapters, and it truly is remarkable all the baby/father references in those chapters, moreso than I had initially picked up on. (Plus Sandor's obsession with poop, but that's another topic altogether, heehee...)
We've talked before about the nature of motherhood in this series and how we have yet to encounter a POV of a birth of a child -- the closest being Dany before the death of her unborn child. The story definitely seems due for a healthy, happy birth, and I can't think of a better candidate than Sansa. The only question is the circumstances in which that child is conceived, and of course we all have our hope for that... But again, I think even the circumstances need to be "better" than those that have come before; even Dany's child, though she was happy about it, was conceived via forced marriage/rape. Sansa needs to be the one to break that cycle by not only taking a man SHE desires to bed but to also conceive a child with him under healthy, happy, and CONSENSUAL circumstances. That man being anyone other than Sandor would be, at this point, a huge cop-out and the biggest trolling in the history of literature. (Don't be a troll, George!!!)
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 24, 2015 2:33:46 GMT
Then you've been ill, Katie? I didn't know. I hope you get better soon.
We have talked about this before, as sillier-things said but when I saw that picture with the WW and the baby, I connected our thoughts about Sandor and Sansa with the WW's innability to produce offspring, to have babies, to be parents. And not only the WW, because inability to have live babies seems to be a recurrent theme in the story. And the ones who were born were conceiceived in ways that defy the laws of gods and men.
Therefore, when we connect Sansa's innocence and capacity to love with all those other tragic loses it becomes more meaningful for her to have a baby conceived with love and legitimate in the eyes of the gods, so to speak. The theme of a newborn baby as a sign of salvation isn't new. Even baby Jesus was conceived to mark the end of a world without hope.
I don't think this baby will save the world but that its birth will be a sign of healing and the coming of a new beginning.
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 24, 2015 3:57:06 GMT
Since reading "Armageddon Rag," (Spoilers Ahead):
where the song of Armageddon literally changed to the "Resurrection Rag" when Sander "Sandy" Blair makes a decision NOT to kill to save the world, I am more certain than ever that Martin is writing a variation of the barren land/resurrection myth. Sandy is not hailed as a hero. No one really knows that this relatively unknown, relatively insignificant man puts an end to the blood magic that would have brought Armageddon.
You mention the birth of Jesus, which is the same idea. Yeats certainly thought so, and if you read "The Second Coming" (which Martin references continually throughout "Armageddon Rag"), you see that he thought a significant birth heralded the dawn of a new age. You also have T.S. Eliot, author of "The Wasteland," writing the poem "Journey of the Magi" which had the following verses:
The Journey Of The Magi
'A cold coming we had of it,
Just the worst time of the year
For a journey, and such a long journey:
The ways deep and the weather sharp,
The very dead of winter.'
And the camels galled, sorefooted, refractory,
Lying down in the melting snow.
There were times we regretted
The summer palaces on slopes, the terraces,
And the silken girls bringing sherbet.
Then the camel men cursing and grumbling
and running away, and wanting their liquor and women,
And the night-fires going out, and the lack of shelters,
And the cities hostile and the towns unfriendly
And the villages dirty and charging high prices:
A hard time we had of it.
At the end we preferred to travel all night,
Sleeping in snatches,
With the voices singing in our ears, saying
That this was all folly.
Then at dawn we came down to a temperate valley,
Wet, below the snow line, smelling of vegetation;
With a running stream and a water-mill beating the darkness,
And three trees on the low sky,
And an old white horse galloped away in the meadow.
Then we came to a tavern with vine-leaves over the lintel,
Six hands at an open door dicing for pieces of silver,
And feet kicking the empty wine-skins.
But there was no information, and so we continued
And arriving at evening, not a moment too soon
Finding the place; it was (you might say) satisfactory.
All this was a long time ago, I remember,
And I would do it again, but set down
This set down
This: were we led all that way for
Birth or Death? There was a Birth, certainly
We had evidence and no doubt. I had seen birth and death,
But had thought they were different; this Birth was
Hard and bitter agony for us, like Death, our death.
We returned to our places, these Kingdoms,
But no longer at ease here, in the old dispensation,
With an alien people clutching their gods.
I should be glad of another death.
I don't know if I'm reaching, but it's the same theme. I love that line: I had seen birth and death, but had thought they were different. It reminds me of Sansa discovering that the magic comes with a whole lot of "mess." I reminds me of Martin promising a bittersweet ending. Am I reaching? I may be reaching, but it seems the same.
So, when Sansa and Sandor have a child (and I think they MUST), it is the dawn of a new age, but it doesn't necessarily mean the child (or the parents) is a hero or a savior in a grand sense of the word. The child is like the first spring leaf on a tree that has weathered the winter--important because its the first and symbolic of more life to come. If Sansa and Sandor have a child, it would be akin to Sandy Blair choosing to refrain from killing--one small action born of mercy (and maybe love) which makes all the difference.
I hate the show so much, but isn't it amazing that they have this image of the white walker with a child. You have the unnatural, incestuous Craster providing children for the Walkers who can only grow their numbers or "procreate" through death. It seems to me that this MUST be a major theme if even the show has picked up on it (no matter how terribly they actually deal with the theme).
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 24, 2015 3:58:44 GMT
And Katie, I hope you are recovering well! I've missed seeing your posts  . |
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Post by katie on Aug 24, 2015 4:11:41 GMT
And all the negative nellies keep asking what Sansa's actual "purpose" in this story will be -- the fact that she's a major POV character who hasn't really "contributed" to the larger narrative yet. Well, maybe this will be it. Maybe it's her love and her birthing a healthy baby under healthy loving circumstances that will be her most valuable contribution to the story. I mean, I of course think she has already provided much of these things, but I think the reason that GRRM has put her through the things she has gone through and still allowed her to maintain (a) her hopefulness and (b) her virginity HAVE to amount to something in the end. He's "saving" her for something special, and in the meantime she is learning that the songs are real BUT there is a whole lot of pain and suffering in the songs too. She forgot about the part, LOL, and was merely always focusing on the "romance" and "happy endings". She'll get there eventually ;-)
(And thanks for the well wishes! eyesofmist, I had my appendix out a few days ago; no fun at all, but it's not half as bad as the pain that little bugger was causing!!)
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 24, 2015 4:31:59 GMT
You know, I haven't read those poets but I have read others, and other stories including that of Mary giving birth to baby Jesus and it does make sense, doesn't it?A pure maiden, good at heart, full or mercy who intercedes for everybody, even her enemies. She must be the right person to have a baby after so much pain. We have seen too many mothers suffer the unimaginable in this story, Gilly being the last one, because her baby was stolen from her to offer safety to Mance's baby. This is absolutely horrible, because no baby should be sacrified to ensure the safety of another.
When baby Jesus was born, his parents had to run away from their home to protect him as Herodes had ordered to kill all the newborn babes and thus prevent the prophesized coming of a new king. Gilly and Sam are running away and the baby they have with them is Dalla's son, a prince. In a way, Sam is like Joseph, protecting a baby that isn't his and Gilly is a different kind of Mary. Melisandre would have burned this baby, so the story mirrors Mary and Josephs exodus to protect Jesus.
As for Sansa, she is a pure msiden like Mary, so her having a baby with Sandor mirrors this story too, in a way. And Joseph was just a carpenter who worked with his hands. Sandor isn't highborn, or a knight. He also built a palisade to protect a village, working with his hands. It won't be anything grand. I think it will seem ordinary, but they will be that little family with a newbornbaby. Dany saw a comet in the sky, it wasn't like the star the Wise Kings saw but there are themes that are recurrent and they signal resurrection after all the destruction.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 24, 2015 5:34:19 GMT
Your references to Yeats and Eliot support your belief, which I agree with, that Sandor and Sansa will have a child and they are not in this story for the sake of power struggles, revenge or anything related to politics and mundane affairs. As we saw when reading AR, hope is in common people, like Sandy, not in the poweful, the wealthy or the military forces, hope is where Sansa thinks it is, in compassion and love.
There are fantasy elements in the story and many other things to attract the readers but Sandor and Sansa or Sam and Gilly ony make sense because there are themes that transcend the political intrigues, the dragons and so on that are there not to move the plot forward or for the sake of entertainment, but because the conform the real core of this story, what really matters after all. A bittersweet ending implies hope, so evil won't conquer all. Love won't be able to end wars for ever or do away with greed and hunger for power either, so a bittersweet ending is the best you can hope for in any case.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 24, 2015 6:04:54 GMT
Also The idea of Death and Birth, linked together, the poet saying he thought they were different. This maked me think of Blackwater and Sandor covered in blood, bleeding himself, like an angel of death that has taken many lives. And he lies in that bed with a girl who is also bleeding as a sign of life. They're life and death together and he threatens her with a dagger. LIFE and DEATH, they seem.
They also remind me of the quest for the Holy Grail, a receptacle of blood, like Sansa's womb. We even have our Galahad looking for Sansa in the person of the purest of knights, Brienne. We also have the great knight who is a sinner, like Lancelot in the person of Jaime also looking for her. Evil knights also look for her, Shadrick perhaps?
And Sandor? He is a sinner too but is trying to atone for his sins at the QI. He'll be the one to succed in this quest for Sansa, he has to.
He himself died and found his rebirth thanks to EB. It only makes sense for him to beget a new life after taking many others. The gods have shown him mercy, as Sansa prayed.
There's a lot of blood in clildbirth, and also in deah by the sword. That bed they shared means they'll have sex one day and have a child.
Elder brother exists just for him, to mirror the elder brother who killed his innocence and hope, Gregor. Sandor's role must be important when George added this EB and QI in the story.
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