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Post by sillierthings on Aug 29, 2015 3:55:05 GMT
In the same way a lot of people think of Sandor as a coarse, old chicken-eatin' brute (even book readers), I think the perception of Gregor Clegane has been influenced a lot by the show.
I was rereading some of Arya's Harrenhal scenes and the fight scene at the Inn with Sandor and Gregor's men. The thing that comes across as one of Gregor's distinguishing characteristics is his silences. I know Martin has said Gregor is dim and we know he is brutal, but the fact that he can be so silent before commiting the most sadistic, horrific actions makes him even more terrifying in a way.
Sandor tells Sansa that Gregor never said a word to him when he caught Sandor playing with the toy knight. He just picked him up and held him to the fire.
Then, you have that scene in the inn that Arya hears Chiswyck tell about:
And in the fight with Oberyn, Gregor only speaks twice. Once to tell Oberyn he's just "some dead man" and when he states that he did rape Elia and kill her children.
And then you have poor, garrulous Sandor who vomits up his deepest secrets, his family history and his views on religion whenever Sansa comes around. Who won't shut up about Sansa's pretty little song to Arya. He is the very opposite of his brother--as if we needed any more evidence to know that!
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Post by katie on Aug 29, 2015 4:03:11 GMT
I've seen it suggested that Gregor's rages and headaches (that were referenced to in a Cersei chapter) were aurally-triggered -- e.g. Gregor killing a man just for snoring -- and that Sandor likely had to "adjust" to this himself. That he probably taught himself to be as quiet as possible around Gregor so as to not raise his ire. If true, then is it any wonder that, when Sandor is finally around people that will listen to him, he basically develops diarrhea of the mouth?? ;-P
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 29, 2015 12:15:31 GMT
Many people think Gregor is stupid just because people tend to believe giants aren't intelligent, that they are retarded, which isn't necessarily the case. It depends on why he is so tall, if there is a condition or illness behind his excessive height. If Martin hadn't said he is dim there wouldn't be any reasons to believe he is. He leads men and also, he doesn't act stupid. For instance, he was smarter than Oberyn, keeping quiet and biding his time when they fought.
He seems brutal and evil, extremely cruel and incapable of empathy, like a psycopath, which he probably is. Believing him stupid and insane makes it too simple, he doesn't seem any more stupid than characters like Victarion. The guy is pure evil and feels no remorse, that's what he is like in the books. Having some amount of intelligence makes him even more terrifying.
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Post by katie on Aug 29, 2015 17:27:38 GMT
Yes good point -- people in Westeros write off Sandor as a mindless, blindly loyal thug when he is in fact very intelligent, well-spoken, and honorable; whereas they write off Gregor as being a mindless, half-retarded killing machine who just does what he is told when in fact he does have a wherewithal and awareness of what he is doing and simply lacks any sense of honor or remorse. So, both brothers are misjudged, but in different ways.
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 30, 2015 14:55:53 GMT
That's exactly it. I think I've been seeing a lot of Clegane-bowl type of posts and thinking of how he was portrayed on the show, it makes it seem like Gregor is just an unthinking monster. He's worse than that, though. He is a human being who CHOOSES to do evil AND he revels in it.
We know that he committed horrific crimes (the princess and her children, his father, his sister, and Sandor), but it's through the eyes of Gregor's men that we see how there is more to his crimes than just brutish violence. As with the rape of the innkeeper's daughter, it's not enough that he brutalizes her. He pays the father for her and then decides she wasn't worth that much and forces the innkeep to make change. There is a psychological sadism in his actions that make Sandor's fear of his brother make more sense. Sandor is tough and he's not afraid to take on opponents, take on whole rioting crowds. His fear of Gregor goes deeper than he's just big and brutal. So is Sandor.
It's not just that Gregor is big and strong and violent, it's that he messes with people's heads/emotions. Think of how Gregor's men call Sandor a "pup" and a "puppy." (Which as an aside, I've read fanfiction where Sandor refers to his children as pups, and given that Gregor's men referred to him as a pup, I don't know that he would do that)
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 30, 2015 19:28:59 GMT
The three of us agree that Gregor isn't retarded,the way he behaves shows that he is clever,perhaps not intelligent but quite clever.Using fancy words and boasting how intelligent you are doesn't make your smarter but often the opposite. Oberyn was thought to be clever but made a fatal mistake,not Gregor, he doesn't make mistake and gets away with all the horrible crimes he commits. If he was stupid Tywin wouldn't have trusted him with any missions. He's big but not exactly brutish,not animalistic. His rage is cold and controlled and he know very well what he is doing,so he is evil, pure evil,not a minless brute,but an evil psycopath. He doesn't waste his time gabbling but is silent and terrifying so underestimating him is a very big mistake,as Oberyn's death shows.
I agree that his men give a clear idea what he is like,that he is blood-curdling. What others say about him,even his own men,make this very clear. So,Sandor has very good reasons to be afraid, as he grew up with a psycho. What is amazing is that he is still sane,broken and traumatized but sane and a decent human being,despite the nightmare his life has been from the start.
Something that surprised me about Sandor,when I could read his worlds for the first time was that he was intelligent, highly intelligent, I'd say. Being big,heavily-muscled and killing for his bosses (lords) is a good description for thug but he wasn't just your typical thug working for the Padrino Tywin Lannister. No, Sandor has his own ideas about everything and can understand very well what's going on at court and around him. He is witty,sarcastic, funny and honourable. I'd say he's healthy, what I mean is that his desires and wants are healthy in a world where most are perverts to some extent. He is attracted to a girl but is ashamed of it ( “You look almost a woman . . . face, teats, and you’re taller too, almost . . . ah, you’re still a stupid little bird, aren’t you?")due to her age (and status,I guess)and isn't mysogynistic like Tyrion,Littlefinger and many others,who consider women as pawns to play their games or obtain what he want. Sandor is much better than many give him credit for,readers included.
Ah,and I hate it when they make Sandor call his children pups,that's completely out of character for him. When they call him dog or pup they don't do it kindly,they do that deameaning him as a human being. He values himself so little that until Sansa appers in his life he doesn't even feel offended by people calling him dog,but I don't think he would let anyone call a child of his pup.
When Brienne and Jaime met they started calling each other by names like wench and kingslayer,never by their given names. It's the same with Sandor and Sansa,and I think that when they get closer they'll call each other Sandor and Sansa,like Brienne called each other by their given names when they discovered they respected and cared about each other.
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Post by katie on Aug 30, 2015 20:08:56 GMT
Yes, good point, and Jaime/Brienne is already such a great parallel with Sandor and Sansa that it only stands to reason that the latter couple will eventually start making a point of addressing each other by their real names too!
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Post by katie on Aug 30, 2015 20:15:23 GMT
As for Sandor calling his kids "pups", I don't totally agree that that would be out of character for him? He may not be "the Hound" anymore, but he's still a Clegane, represented by the 3 dogs who died in the yellow of autumn grass, which he seems pretty proud of -- so even though he will no longer be a "dog" in the sense of a Lannister lackey, that moniker will take on a different meaning, one that Sandor will take back for himself. Even Elder Bro thinks dogs should get more credit: "The riverlands are full of such scavengers. I will not call them wolves. Wolves are nobler than that . . . and so are dogs, I think."
When he's called "the puppy" by Gregor's men, it was obviously supposed to be mean, but Sandor didn't seem to react to it. I got the impression that he didn't really care.
And any children he has with Sansa would indeed be "pups" -- progeny of a dog and a wolf. Just like how "little bird" started off as a mocking nickname, it eventually evolved into a term of endearment, and I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that Sandor will still consider himself a "dog" in the future... Just not Joffrey's dog. "My own dog now." ;-)
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 30, 2015 22:00:58 GMT
Well, I don't know, one thing is having a sigil, an animal linked to your house,and another one being called yourself a wolf or a dog. Also, wolf sounds different, like lion or tiger,it has positive connotations,but not "dog",which is always used to demean a person. As I see it, Sandor was so used to being treated like an animal that he decided to make it a strenght to adopt the persona of a mean dog,the Hound. He was so used to abuse that he didn't even get annoyed when he was treated in an abusive way. However, even "a dog gets tired of being kicked". As I see it,Sansa made him see that he deserved better,that he shouldn't let peope call him "dog".More often than not,Sansa's comments are spot on,she is right in many things and he has to learn a thing or two from her,one of which is self-respect.
This is probably a personal view,but I don't like it when they call Sandor pup or dog,that's looking down on him and there is no way you can make it sound better when you use those words to refer to a man. Perhaps it depends on a language consideration,for me, calling a baby "pup" doesn't feel nice and much less an grown-up man,it sound patronizing and demeaning to me. I love dogs but if someone called me puppy I would dislike it very much.
I wouldn't like Sandor calling his kids pups,really,and I'd love him to call the little bird Sansa. Little bird is OK as an endearment,but I don't like the idea of him calling her little bird all the time. And I can't imagine Sansa calling Sandor Hound or dog, or her children pups. I don't think Ned or Cat called their children pups either,although they were Starks.
Of course these are just personal impressions and are based on nothing but feels.
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Post by katie on Aug 31, 2015 0:53:44 GMT
Yes, even a dog gets tired of being kicked indeed, but he still acknowledges that he's a dog... Just one that won't tolerate abuse anymore. Sandor is like a junkyard pitbull who was once used for dogfighting but then got rescued and taken in by a loving family. Still a dog, but no longer a "mean-tempered" one who "bites any hand that tries to pet him." ;-)
Fair enough, I mean, I didn't like it either (and even Polliver was like "bro, NO"), but I think the "puppy" remarks were meant to denigrate Sandor and imply his inferiority to Gregor; it was the intent more than the name itself meant to do harm.
This may be a weird analogy, LOL, but in the last season of "RuPaul's Drag Race", one of the contestants was a drag queen whose stage name was Trixie Mattel. Very over-the-top campy and funny. Later, he revealed that "Trixie" was the nickname his father gave him when he was a boy, to mock him for being so effeminate. So, he decided to turn the tables and take back that name for himself and gain some empowerment from it by using it as his (very successful) drag persona. I thought that was so awesome, and while I think Sandor will never go by the name "the Hound" again, I think he will still consider himself a dog -- like the heroic dogs on his sigil.
I will concede, though, that Sandor may very well not like thinking of himself as a dog in relation to Sansa as a wolf, since dogs are inherently inferior to wolves. He has enough insecurities, so he may not wanna highlight that one as well! LOL
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 31, 2015 2:05:32 GMT
I can see it both ways, and tbh, it didn't bother me much before when I saw it in fanfiction. However, lately I've been thinking about how important it is for Sandor's arc that he regains his sense of humanity. His family sigil may be three dogs, but HE is descended from the loyal MAN who heroically sacrificed his leg to save his lord. So, yes he's the dog and Sansa's the wolf and that symbolism is important, but I just don't like the idea of him continuing to think of himself or his children as dogs.
As eyesofmist pointed out above, Sansa calls Sandor out on the fact that he lets people call him dog. His response is to tell her the tale of his grandfather and the dogs, but it really is the grandfather who is the hero of that tale. Again, you all have discussed this, but Sandor takes the insult and turns it into a point of pride--he is a dog, better a loyal dog than a lying, faithless human--but it's still a defense mechanism. He's not going to be complete until he can see himself as fully human. The Hound is dead after all.
And I'm not trying to be a spoil sport. I mean, I could totally see Sandor referring to his child as a pup and watching Sansa get tetchy because HOW DARE HE! HE is no DOG, and HER CHILD is CERTAINLY NOT!!
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 31, 2015 2:25:30 GMT
And calling his children pups? He may decide to call himself a dog, although I don't like it as it comes from trauma, from being mistreated and looked down on by the Lannisters. Those liege lords who won't let him forget his place. They made Sandor's grandfather a "noble" but never allowed them to eat at the hight table and referred to both Sandor and Gregor as dogs and used them for their dirty work.
The kennelmaster's action was heroic and so were his dogs' but Sandor is a man, not a dog, and when he heals I don't think he should accept anyone calling him dog any more. He isn't healed yet and calls himself other things, like butcher, as a sign of self-deprecation. Jaime laughed at people for calling him kingslayer but wanted Brienne to call him Jaime and told others to call her Brienne. I think this is an identity theme, like Arya's no one or Sansa as Alayne. Now the Hound is dead and in his speech EB called him Sandor and used the word "man", as a sign that he isn't a dog, but a man. The word dog makes me think of abuse, as Ramsay's treatment of Theon shows. Theon wants to die as Theon Greyjoy and I hope Sandor can live as Sandor. He should have dogs and call them pups, but forget about being called a dog.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 31, 2015 2:35:31 GMT
I agree that letting people call him dog and making a strength of what was meant as an insult is a defense mechanism, like Tyrion telling Jon to make his status as a bastard his strength, like Tyrion does. It's the same for Sandor and he must get over this inferiority complex. His grandfather was a hero and this action made him a nobleman. Sandor has reasons to be proud but should identify with his grandfather, not with the loyal animals.
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Post by katie on Aug 31, 2015 2:44:21 GMT
I dunno, I guess maybe because I am a dog person I just want Sandor to bring some kind of dignity to being a dog. Cuz dogs are so great! LOL
But you're right that this story doesn't seem to have a very high opinion of dogs in general. Wolves, yes. But their lowly descendants, not so much. Geez, what gives, GRRM?? ;-P
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 31, 2015 2:48:16 GMT
Yes, that's what's odd about that tale. Sandor is clearly proud of the grandfather, who is very brave and loyal to sacrifice himself like that, but he chooses to identify with the dogs to make it his armor--just like the Hound's helmet is him literally putting on the Hound's armor. Sansa sees this and comments upon it--"you don't let anyone call you a knight." He's better than a dog, and as cute or funny it may be to think of him and Sansa having "puppies" together (and yes, GRRM puts it in our heads with Sansa's dreams of puppies in her lap), in actual fact, I don't think Sandor or Sansa would call their children pups--not when Sandor has lived with being called a dog for most of his life. Just my opinion, though, and I can see where other people are coming from.
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