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Post by eyesofmist on Nov 28, 2015 18:24:30 GMT
I haven't been on line for some time, boring story, noting serious, but I have been quite streesed and with several issues in RL that made it difficult for me to enjoy the famdon, Tumblr, the boards. I haven't even read a book in several months. I really want to come back though, now that things are getting back to normal. How are you all, by the way? I hope you're fine. Well, I'm sure you have seen this beautiful picture by Bubug and I'd like to know what you think about it and especially the longsword's position. There's no doubt the picture is beautiful,it's so good I was in awe when I saw it although Bubug's art is always gorgeous. Several things attracted my attention first, Sandor's position,leaning his head towards Sansa but without ever trying to touch her lips with his. In fact it seems like a sin to tarnish that angelic girl in his arms with anything remotely sexual, because she looks spot on,she really looks twelve, and he around 25,exactly the ages they are in the books. This means nothing for Tyrion or Littlefinger,but it means a lot to Sandor,who is a knight at heart, despite what he always says. another thing that amazed me was her hands,they look like birds,so helpless and vulnerable. The last thing was the longsword. I loved it,all his armour but especially the longsword and I liked how it took so much protagonism in the picture. I'd like to know your opinion, because some users said it would be better if it appeared at his hip, which is true from a realistic point of view, for practical reasons,but I thought it worked wonderfully well in the composition and it would be a pity if she changed it. I told her my opinion about but I'd like to know how you see it. She has already decided to leave it where it is, by the way. This is what I said about the picture: And then I added this when She answered to my comment: Here's the link to what everyone said: bubug.deviantart.com/art/UnKiss-573603689?offset=50#comments
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Post by sillierthings on Nov 29, 2015 4:17:15 GMT
Oh, this picture made my heart flutter! I had a physical reaction to this beautiful work of art and literally said, "GUH!" aloud when I saw it because it is utterly perfect. This is it. This is what happened the night of the Blackwater. This is what they looked like. This is it.
Your interpretation of the placement of the sword is likewise perfect and a beautiful symbol of their relationship now and of what may be later. It cuts through them both, joining them. Whether that is an accurate representation of how someone would wear the sword is irrelevant. It joins them visually and symbolically.
Such arguments remind me of the ones about how Sandor was able to get on the horse in front of Sansa during the bread riots or whether burn scars would crack and ooze the way Sansa first saw them. It doesn't matter if it's accurate...the meaning is what is important. Sandor was in front of her because GRRM wanted to Sansa to cling to him. His wounds are raw on the outside because they are still so very raw on the inside.
To return to the main point, I don't think I've ever seen such a beautiful and for me, accurate representation of these characters and that scene. It is perfection.
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Post by katie on Dec 2, 2015 4:43:03 GMT
It's so funny because, the day this was posted on Tumblr, that very morning I had woken up thinking about this scene -- specifically, how I would film it if I got the opportunity to do so. Then I logged onto Tumblr and saw this and... yep, that's it. All of it. Sansa surrendering to the kiss that she thinks is coming, Sandor wanting so bad to actually kiss her but mistaking her closing her eyes for a rejection, the desperation in his grip on her... SIGH. They're also (gasp!) canon-age, which is something you rarely see in SanSan art. I hadn't noticed the sword before, but I know bubug is kinda famous for little easter eggs like this, LOL. Incidentally, this makes me feel like swearing off putting pen to paper ever again because I'll never be able to match this as long as I live ( try as I might, LOL).
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 3, 2015 19:45:43 GMT
No, no, don't stop painting,dear! Bubug is so talented that she leaves us speechless (for a while, hehe, because after a few seconds we have a lot of things to say about her beautiful art)but this doesn't mean there aren't other painters that are alreading doing a good job. Your pictures are really good and getting better each time,which is wonderful. Sansan art pieces are always a gift for all the fans. We want more and more! When I see a new one, it brightens my day, it really does and I'm not exagerating. So don't stop drawing, please!
I also wonder how you would film this scene.On the show it was quite disappointing althouth George was the writer. There probably wasn't much he could do because there was no build-up for their relationship in the show, I know, but it was disappointing anyway.
It must be a difficult scene because the girl is underage (even in the show)and the man is an adult (though young), it's also very violent but she doesn't perceive it as dangerous as it seems and this is difficult to convey on screen as it depends on her perception and her feelings. If it was a real nasty scene it would be easier but it must be unnerving,violent and sexually charged without making him seem a paedophile or a murderer. It must remain ambivalent and people should be able to see, like Sansa,that what he did was wrong (the dagger,pushing her onto the bed and so on)but his initial intentions weren't bad and he didn't really mean to harm her although he was so broken and nearly deranged.
It must be really difficult to convey all these things on screen when you can't write, like Martin,what Sansa's impressions are.
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Post by katie on Dec 3, 2015 23:03:04 GMT
Oh I'll still do it, just cuz I can't help myself, but thanks for the words of encouragement because, to be honest, I don't feel like anyone really cares when I post stuff. I've seen some truly sloppy and unimpressive stuff get hundreds of notes, and meanwhile something I work on for weeks can barely crack 20, LOL. I dunno, Tumblr is weird I guess...
Yeah, there really wasn't any other way for him to write that scene when you really think about it. If he had kept in all the violent aspects, it would have looked like it came out of nowhere and made Sandor look especially (and randomly) vicious. But I also think he wanted to tone it down as a way to convey his true intention with the scene in the books -- that it wasn't supposed to be this super traumatic moment; that there was a very important layer of longing and connection beneath the angsty surface. Unfortunately, too many readers can't (or won't) look past the surface, so GRRM had to spoon-feed the show-watchers this watered down version.
With the right actors, I definitely think it can be pulled off. Sansa is most definitely frightened in this scene -- she doesn't know what's going to happen to her, there is a huge battle raging just outside, the outcome of which she doesn't know yet, she's been drinking, Cersei has been filling her head with all sorts of terrifying scenarios, Sandor is completely unhinged and, despite their connection, she's knows what he is capable of... So yeah, she had every reason to be scared. But the thing is, I don't think she ever felt like she was in a sexually precarious position. There was never any indication, to me, when reading that she ever for a second thought that he might rape her. The scene IS erotically-charged, and yet nothing erotic or sexual actually happens! Which is the brilliance of GRRM's writing... That would be difficult to convey on-screen, but I definitely think that the emotions and the connection between them can certainly be conveyed on-screen. If I were directing, I would probably tell the actors to play it as if they are already a couple -- that Sansa's reaction to him is much like someone witnessing someone they love completely fall apart before their very eyes. And Sandor just does not know how to communicate what he is going through, which makes him even more frustrated than he already is, and thus he lashes out. It's a struggle for understanding, which culminates in the cupping of his cheek.
Now, the big question, though -- to include or not to include the UnKiss??? Now THAT could get tricky if both actors are canon-age...
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 4, 2015 0:12:55 GMT
The unkiss... I think this should appear later,when she fantasizes about it, perhaps when she is lying in bed at night and thinking, or perhaps it souldn't be seen but only mentioned by her somehow.It never happened,after all, so I don't think it should appear in the actual scene. If they had really kissed the scene would have worked in a different way, perhaps it wouldn't have made sense for her to stay in KL and not to leave with him if they had broken the dam and kissed.The connection was shown by her cupping his cheek and his tears,but if there had been a kiss, she would have left with him, I think. If they had kissed and he'd left her there, it would have been very strange.
It's better this way. I also agree that she never felt he could hava raped her and that she was right. He wanted her,badly,in all senses, body and soul,but he would never have molested her and let alone rape her.
As for how people react to drawings,posts and many other things,it's a mystery to me sometimes too,because there are things that couldn't have taken much thought or work and get a great response while there are others,which are far more interesting and don't get so much attention. Of course there are things that are great, like Bubug's pictures and they are received the way they deserve,with enthusiasm. But some reactions are surprising one way or another.
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Post by katie on Dec 4, 2015 7:07:53 GMT
Well, either way, whether it appears later or in the scene itself, it would have to be shot, and that could prove problematic if the actors are the actual ages that Sandor and Sansa are supposed to be. (Like, imagine in Sia's " Elastic Heart" video if Shia LaBeouf kissed Maddie Ziegler; they're the same ages in that video as Sandor and Sansa were during the BoBW.) Yes. I don't understand where people are coming from when they accuse Sandor of being "sexually aggressive" with her. When?? Because he mentioned her boobs once?? Because he made some vague sexual metaphors that went over her head?? He never touched her in a sexual manner; he never tried to get "fresh" with her. And most importantly -- and the part that too many people seem to forget -- SHE DIDN'T THINK HE WAS A THREAT. She comes to realize fairly quickly that he's all talk. She's more frightened FOR him than OF him. I'm glad you said that, because now I know it's not just me who sees it! LOL
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 4, 2015 8:05:38 GMT
You are right about the unkiss,it must be shot while the Blackwater scene is shot. It doesn't matter when you show it because if it is shot at all it must be shot during the scene and this is problematic due to their ages. I guess it may be done if it is very subtle and not sexualised. I mean,if they just touch each other's lips,you don't have to show much as it is dark in the room after all. They shot Littlefinger kissing Sansa and nothing happened,it seems. The difference is that Sandor souldn't appear dirty or pervy whereas Littlefinger is both things,so it doesn't matter if he appears like that in the scene. With Sandor, the director should manage to convey something "clean",because that's the way Sansa pictures it. And if they want to show how she imagined it at first it could be very subtle but if they choose to show it as she imagined it later, when she was in the Eyrie ,it couldn't be so innocent,so to speak,because it sounds passionate the way she describes it,you know,that cruel mouth and so on. She sounds mature for her age in that description,like a grown woman being kissed fiercely and passionately and later regretting that her lover left her leaving her nothing but a bloody cloak and the memory of that kiss.It doesn't go with her actual age when she last saw him or with the way he really behaved, this memory seems to evolve as she evolves and becomes more passionate as she grows older. Poor Sandor! He would be shocked if he knew of her fantasies about him,LOL.Her fantasies are quite sexual while his words about her while he is with Arya show him so besotted,he seems such a romantic. Some say that he won't want her when they meet again because he only loves her idealised image and not the real woman with her passion and also her flaws,but I disagree,I think they are well matched,as both are equally passionate and quite sexual in the right way,nothing nasty or dirty between them as I see it,just natural. Those who say he won't like her because she won't be pure and angelic when she matures have this problematic vision that divides women in madonnas and whores without realising how wrong and also dangerous this idea is. Women souldn't be categorized like that or in any other way but it is comfortable and convenient for some,especially some men,to label all women. This is just for sex,that is wife material, and so on. This sucks, Sansa is a young woman with all her facets and this includes a strong sexual drive that matches Sandor's,which is not a bad thing but rather the opposite if they ever become a couple. I think he wants her the right way and the only problem are the circumstances,their ages,social status and stage in the world. This may not be so important in a world which is collapsing,I mean, a potential Armageddon is coming an nothing will stay as it is,so what people used to be before everything crashed down may be irrelevant and what will matter is who and what they become in the new order that comes later. When I read the books I realised he was into her quite soon. At first it seemed just concern for her well being and the will to protect her,a very strong emotional bond where they worriend about each other and cared for each other (she felt fear for him,as you said,she wasn't really afraid of him). When I said "just" I didn't mean this is not important, far from it,because it's probably more important than mere physical attraction,what I mean is that I didn't detect anything sexual at first,what I noticed was far more beautiful,two people turning to each other and feeling a connection,a desire to know about the other and getting to know them. Perhaps I didn't realise he was attracted to her because of her age. I couldn't imagine him feeling sexually attracted to her because although others were he doesn't seem that type, he is a knight at heart after all. In fact,he is never sexually agressive with her,I agree,the Blackwater scene in her room is sexually charged but because of the imagery used there not because of what he really says or does,as I explained in this post.
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 4, 2015 8:20:45 GMT
What caught me by surprise was her reaction to him when he was gone. I realised she was attracted to him when she mentioned the unkiss for the first time and had to go back and re-read the scene,because I didn't remember they had kissed.
And she says she kissed him,which is relevant,just as relevant as Martin's choice to describe her clinging to him when he rescued her from the mob although it is difficult to imagine why she was sitting behind him on the horse.It's her choice, her initiative.
Later she says he kissed her but the first time she mentions the unkiss she says she kissed the Hound,not the other way around and something that seems shocking enough in itself (the Hound, really? Not some pretty boy but the Hound) becomes more shocking because SHE kissed him.
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Post by katie on Dec 4, 2015 16:05:35 GMT
Will write more later, but to address this ^^ post, YES, the first time Sansa mentions the UnKiss, she seems rather... *proud* of it, no?? She's basically thinking to herself, "oh if ONLY these dumb bitches knew that *I* had kissed a REAL MAN..." Sansa clearly gets off on the idea that she has this little "secret"; it's the height of chivalric romance to be involved in a clandestine tryst with a daring knight. And the fact that she has cast Sandor Clegane, OF ALL FREAKING PEOPLE, in this role, speaks volumes for itself.
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Post by katie on Dec 4, 2015 20:04:18 GMT
Unfortunately, though, the LF/Sansa scene was NOT shot to look "pervy". It was framed by LF implying to Sansa that he helped kill Joffrey to avenge her mother, and she smiles at this... Both she AND the viewer are meant to look at LF as a "hero" in this scenario. That was my immediate impression the first time I watched the scene. D&D were very careful to trick the audience into believing that LF was not only sincere but actually a viable romantic option for Sansa. And it looks like they're only going to make it worse, considering they saw fit to include this kiss in the S6 teaser that was released yesterday... If I were adapting the entire story, I probably would show an "implied" kiss in a flashback or dream sequence. Like, we would hover on the two of them and then they would lean in toward each other, then we would cut away right before their lips touched. Then I would shoot increasingly more "sophisticated" versions of the kiss and the erotic dream, to convey how the memory and her feelings for Sandor were evolving and becoming more "mature". OMG can you imagine finding out that she invented a secret kiss between them when ALL THIS TIME he assumed she didn't WANT him to kiss her at all??? Like, he already feels awful enough for what he did to her that night.... But if he found out that it was all just a horrible misunderstanding?? ANGST FOR DAYS!!! Lucky for him, Sansa has more or less forgiven him anyway, LOL. Whaaaat?? What an odd thing to say!! And what a horrible misread of their relationship! Everyone else "loves" Sansa because of her "idealized" image as the beautiful, tragic princess. Sandor is the only one who knows who she TRULY is. It wasn't her "innocence" that attracted him -- it was her innocence that compelled him to HELP her. Because he, of all people, knew better that her sort of innocence and naiveté would come back to bite her in the ass in a place like KL (just like it did him so many years ago). Like, he didn't tell her the story of his burns just cuz he wanted to get it off his chest -- he told her that story for HER! And only THEN, when it was done, did he realize how fucking cathartic it was, to FINALLY say it all out loud. And then she actually felt SYMPATHY with him and AGREED with him that Gregor was 100% in the wrong... which is the EXACT sort of validation he wanted but NEVER got from his own fucking family!!! Is it any wonder he immediately became enamored with her? Imagine going through your whole life with that sort of loneliness and isolation, feeling like nobody cares and that you don't matter as a person, and then along comes someone -- a beautiful highborn girl, no less -- and she not only gets it but she expresses genuine compassion for you. Holy shit, OF COURSE she is the first person he turns to after he abandons the battle in his most desperate moment! Anyway, getting off-track, LOL... My point being, I don't understand the mindset you quoted, because when they reunite, BOTH of them are going to be way closer the versions of themselves that they had encouraged each other to be! For all of Sandor's grumbling about Sansa's "courtesies", it was actually something he APPRECIATED about her, and we know this because he freaking says so when he's talking about her with the Mountain's Men at the inn. But while everyone else is trying to get a piece of her because she's pretty or has a claim to Winterfell or because she has a way of inspiring a sense of "honor" in so many people, Sandor still knows her better than ANY of them (and vice versa). And Sandor is the one that Sansa is thinking/fantasizing/dreaming about. #IMPORTANT Exactly. When all is said and done, if she decides that Sandor is the one she wants to be with, there's nothing that is gonna stop her from making that happen. And Sandor already "fits" in with the culture of the North so well (his looks, his non-knightness, etc).
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 5, 2015 0:28:57 GMT
I keep nodding in agreement with everytjing you said here. You are so right when you say he appreciates her courtesis despite all his protests and how mean he was to her sometimes, and I'd add that she feels the same because she complains about his anger and bad temper but also admires his ferocity. She even wishes Dontos had some of his fierce spirit. I think she also values that he is young and strong because she says something about Dontos being older than Florian, who was also homely but younger, as if hinting at Sandor as someone young but homely too.
I agree the interpretation I mentioned is all wrong but you'd be surprised how many people say that on Westeros.org. There are readers with crazy ideas over there, many more than one would expect.
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Post by katie on Dec 5, 2015 3:30:38 GMT
Also, Sandor isn't attracted to Sansa BECAUSE she is young.... No, that is something a pedophile would do, and as we keep having to point out, HE IS NOT A PEDOPHILE. If he was, his journey with Arya would have gone A LOT differently. So no, Sandor was not attracted to Sansa because of her youth. He was attracted to her for HER and she just HAPPENED to be young, and don't for a second think that he wasn't highly conscious of (and SELF-conscious about) her age. Which is exactly why he had to stop himself when he was commenting on her maturing body on the Serpentine. HE KNOWS SHE IS JUST A CHILD AND THAT IT WOULD BE WRONG TO TOUCH OR KISS HER AND SO HE FREAKING DOESN'T. EVER. "You're taller too, almost..." NO, NOT "TALL" ENOUGH YET, SANDOR, GET A GRIP. LOL!
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 5, 2015 9:16:50 GMT
Yes, yes, yes to that, LOL. He isn't a paedophile and I like this sentence very much because this is what I've always thought : " she happens to be young". That summarizes everything about his feelings for her, it's just that, she liked her and fell for her really hard, and she felt the same. They were in the wrong place, on opposite sides, at different status and stages in life and they were the wrong ages but deep down they were what the other "had always wanted".
They were made for each other; so, falling in love was inevitable although she didn't realise how she felt at first and he felt uncomfortable about it and restrained himself as those extracts you quoted prove. It was useless, because he was drawn to her like a moth to the flame and she missed him when he was gone.He just fell in love with her for the person she was but ,unfortunately, she was too young and far above him in the "medieval" society they lived in.
I think one can find the right person for them under the worst circumstances and fell in love despite everything. He never seemed a paedophile and neither did Littlefinger or Tyrion. They all feel attracted to her for the woman she was becoming. The diference is how they behaved and what they liked in her, because for Sandor it was love and desired the whole pack, body and soul, and he wanted to know the real Sansa and not some trophy or some surrogate delusional first love. That's why those who say ( and they insist, I assure you) that he is a paedophile or that he has her on a pedestal and just loves her purity and innocence are completely mistaken.
He loves her at 12 and will love her until she is eighty if given the chance, and what makes this so beautiful is that he is the only man who really respects her as a person. Not even her own father, who waited too long to break her betrothal to a little monster and never explained to her why this had to be broken and she had to leave KL whereas he gave explanations to Arya, a mere slip of a child.
And what about Rob, who didn't want to exchange Jaime for his sisters and later disinherited Sansa due to a forced marriage to Tyrion? By contrast, Sandor talked to her, explained things to her and didn't treat her like an idiot. He respected her and shared his views on life and his tragic past with her, he was also the one who never dismissed her love of songs and her beliefs as trivial, he was the one who wanted her song when Tyrion and Littefiger wanted to cut that part in her that represents her essence, her values, her roots and her freedom. They wanted to change her, they wanted a pretty doll for their pleasure and purposes and tried to groom her or at least take from her what she loved and they weren't interested in. But Sandor, as you said, liked the real her, even the courtesies he mocked when they met at KL. And he wants her song, which in a story called " A Song of Ice and Fire" is no trivial thing. In fact it means everything.
This is my oppinion but I have found people who don't see like this, or refuse to see it although this is the story George is really telling. If you tell them this they'll dismiss your reading on the matter because you are a sansan "shipper", as they put it, and the use this term as something pejorative. They also look down on Tumblr users for some reason. I know this sounds crazy but I used to spend a lot of time there and it's true, I'm not kidding.
I don't even consider myself a shipper because I never fantasize about romantic pairings that that are not in the authors' actual story-telling. This "romace" is there, on the pages, and I happen to like it, I never made up anything, George put it there for us.
If it is so subtle and not obvious and clearly stated only proves it will be important when it blooms full force because writers don't bother to build up a storyline ( a romance, in this case) over 5 books for no reason, this is obvious. The dream of spring will be theirs, I'm sure, that's why she keeps his cloak under her summer silks in her cedar (hope) chest.
This is so personal, keeping that cloak in contact with her own clothes! And she doen't care it is bloody and torn, as a symbol of acceptance on her part. She accepts all of him including his flaws or his past as a killer if she keeps his soiled cloak under her silks, hidden from eveyone, like her feelings for him. And what about keeping something that belongs to a man in her CHEST? What do we keep in our chests? Our hearts. This is matter of words and symbology. Girls used things in a cedar chest for their future marriage. Moreover, the chest is the part of the body where our heart is.
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Post by sillierthings on Dec 5, 2015 17:02:40 GMT
Just jumping in to say, don't stop drawing Kate! I love your interpretations of Sansa and Sandor, and my "cheeky" birthday drawing was top-notch! As eyesofmist says, each piece of fan art is a gift, especially to those of us who don't draw. Everyone has their own style and can capture the emotion of a moment or the personality of the character that may not be captured in a more "perfect" rendering. I've seen absolutely beautiful work without any spark or soul, and I've seen sketches on post-it notes that capture the passion and emotion of a book scene.
The very definition of soul mates!
I'll start by saying that while I don't really want to go into what is or isn't paedophilia, but the fact that Tyrion could have the following conversation makes me not give him a complete pass on this one:
And after she says yes, that she is frightened and rejects his offer to be the "Knight of Flowers," he gets bitter and makes her crawl into the bed to do their duty and won't let her even cover herself with the blanket. It's a small detail perhaps, but think about that...she IS a child and he KNOWS she's scared. Can you imagine? She's not even allowed the comfort of covering up a little. It's cruel and it's an ugly, ugly scene to me. I still have trouble understanding people who can read that and think that they have some sort of romantic potential.
Tyrion and Littlefinger both want Sansa frightened and easy to control, a doll to act out their fantasies with, but Sandor is usually the angriest with Sansa when he is perceiving that she is not aware of the danger around her telling lies, but he does love her courtesy, and I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the observation that Sansa's complaints about Sandor's savagery are comparable to his complaints about her chirping courtesies. They may not like to deal with it on the surface, but in fact, both of them are drawn to each other because of these traits. Sansa wants someone ferocious (as long as he doesn't hurt her with it). Sandor wants a polite lady (as long as she's sincere).
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