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Post by katie on Dec 5, 2015 1:37:16 GMT
So, Steven Attewell, the guy that runs the racefortheironthrone account on Tumblr, just posted something very interesting on Twitter:
At first I was like... Well that would definitely explain his complete and utter meltdown during the battle, and also his isolated brooding on Maegor's rooftop the night before!
But on the other hand... He entered Lannister service when he was 12, and he was that age at the time of Robert's Rebellion. Even if he was just a squire at the time, he would have seen some action, no? He says in the book that he killed his first man at 12, so maybe it was during RR. And who the hell knows what else he may have experienced or seen during that time. So, the BoBW might have been his first battle as an ADULT.
BUT THEN AGAIN, the Lannisters laid low for the most part during Robert's Rebellion, only entering for the Sack of King's Landing. It's not unreasonable to imagine Sandor might have been there for that at least. I doubt he was already Cersei's sworn shield at that point.
Anyway, thoughts??
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 5, 2015 10:18:11 GMT
I find it difficult to believe it was his first battle. He seems battle-hardened and didn't melt down boarding burning ships or surrounded by a mob who slaughtered other KG's before his eyes. Greenfire making him relive an old trauma and the deepest disappointment broke him. He was a child of 6 or 7 being burned again in his mind (PTDS) and he had realised he couldn't fight for the Lannisters any more.
I don't know the group or the man you mentioned. Are they show followers or book readers? It doesn't matter much anyway. George doesn't suggest this is Sandor's first battle and I think his brooding is caused by his trauma and his demons, not by his fear of death. He proves later that he can lead sorties and his men respect him, he seems used to this but he can never get used to fire due to his past. It's not battle or death he fears but fire. On Maegor roof he says only cowards fight with fire. His phobia breaks him, not the thought of death.
I also think his feelings for Sansa make him vulnerable for the first time in many years because life now has gained a value it lacked for him before. Now he has a reson to look forward to a new day: his budding love for her. He was like a bear hibernating until she turned up in his life and his frozen heart thawed because of her. I'm sure he has no hope to deserve her love but he wants to see her again anyway and death seems a threat now whereas he probably didn't think much of it before Sansa.
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Post by sillierthings on Dec 5, 2015 15:58:29 GMT
I also think his feelings for Sansa make him vulnerable for the first time in many years because life now has gained a value it lacked for him before. Now he has a reson to look forward to a new day: his budding love for her. He was like a bear hibernating until she turned up in his life and his frozen heart thawed because of her. I'm sure he has no hope to deserve her love but he wants to see her again anyway and death seems a threat now whereas he probably didn't think much of it before Sansa. I agree that it's his feelings for Sansa that makes him more vulnerable. He may have broken anyway under the wildfire, but I do like the idea that death starts to seem more frightening because of his feelings for her. I wonder too if it's the idea that he is the only one left who will protect her? If he dies, she's truly alone. I liken it, somewhat, to the feeling you have as a parent. You start to take care of yourself more because someone else is depending on you. Not that Sandor's feelings are paternal for Sansa, but it translates somewhat to his behavior with Arya. The village people goad him about losing his belly for fighting. He refuses to get involved at the Twins until Arya runs into the fray (heh...Frey...anyway). He wouldn't even fight with the ferryman. He's avoiding fighting in part to take care of Arya (and by extension, have the chance to help Sansa). However, as soon as he learns that Sansa was married to Tyrion and ran away from KL, he starts the fight with his brother's men which is basically suicidal. To get back to the original post, I don't think BW was his first battle, but like you all said before, it is the first battle he goes into with something to lose, as tentative and strange as the "relationship" he has with Sansa is. |
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 5, 2015 17:07:03 GMT
What you said about being more careful with your life when you become a parent is so true.He probably wanted to protect her and was afraid of what would happen to her without him. It makes sense.
When the BWB captured him ,after that man found him passsed out in the open and dead drunk, he was behaving in a self destructive way, Arya gave him purpose and hope to join Rob and be able to take part in Sansa's rescue. He even thought of becoming a lordling, he who boasted his spite towards knights and lords. But when he heard she had married the imp he turned suicidal, yes, nothing matered one bit. He probably asked the gift of mercy from Arya because he had given up, he didn't want to fight for his life as he had lost all hope.
Before Sanda he had lived for revenge, after her she became his reason to live. I think his behavior speaks louder than words.
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Post by katie on Dec 6, 2015 5:22:58 GMT
Someone said that Sandor mentioned that he fought in the Greyjoy Rebellion, but I don't remember that at all, do you?
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 6, 2015 12:11:10 GMT
I'm like you. Everyone assumes he fought in that war and also that he was a Lannister squire when KL was sacked and that's why he killed her first man at twelve ( Gregor was 16 by then). Nobody in the story that I can remember says Sandor fought in those battles but it is assumed because he served the Lannisters in those days and he didn't have a nice face and agreeable character to be a page at the Rock, so they trained him to fight, that's why he became the Hound.
It really doesn't go with the storyline that Sandor or Jaime didn't have experience at war. I know Sandor is younger but he was old enough to fight in a world in which they sent child squires to fight.
He also sounds like a world weary war veteran, not like someone who's all posture for tourneys. If he broke down during Blackwater and if he was all brooding and angsty was because of his personal problems, the most important of which was having lost his excuse to be a thug for people he despised. I think Sansa made him reconsider the foundations of his pretended worldview. He had already betrayed his own "principles" (or lackthereof) by lying for her, covering her attemp to take his prince's life before his eyes or fighting a mob alone to get to her and save her.
He is not an inexperienced man who loses courage in his first real battle. I think he is a man who has discovered he doesn't want to be kicked or treated like a dog anymore and that he wants to live, really live to protect this girl he's fallen for if he can be nothing else for her. Dying to defend the people who treat him like an animal and mistreat the girl he loves makes no sense any more.
All these things make him a deserter, but not cowardice, becaue later he wants to join Rob and fight. He learnt as a kid to fight for his masters out of loyalty alone but they mistreated Sansa before his eyes and that was the end of it, now he is his own "dog", as he puts it although I'd prefer to say he's a man at last, and he needs a purpose, a fair reason to fight. He won't stay on the quite isle, he'll fight again but he'll do it for the right reasons this time and he'll do it for himself and what matters to him.
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