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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 7, 2015 16:28:16 GMT
When asked what Sandor Clegane would look like without the scars,George said he'd look average. There's also an anedote about a figurine they made and when they showed some sketches showing him what it would look like, George asked them to make them less mean-looking and more handsome,LOL. Sandor is not supposed to be ugly but disfigured and George makes it clear when asked. He is said to have liked Rory to play Sandor and Rory isn't ugly either. He wasn't thinking of someone especially ugly,but someone intimidationg due to his size, his horrible scars and perhaps above all, his bitter character so prone to anger. George doesn't use many words to describe his features and it's never said they are ugly. I doesn't matter because Sansa's attention is first drawn to his drunken sullen eyes. His anger is what sacares her the most, more than all the rest. And then his disfigurement steals the show and we forget what he looked like in the first place focusing on those gruesome scars. His anger and his scars make it difficult to look at him,not his actual features. Viserys and Benjen are also described as gaunt and none of them is considered ugly,many tall men have a heavy brow and this doesn't necessarily make them ugly. The last thing is the large hooked nose,which is not pretty,but is no enough to make him ugly, or is it? I guess it depends on the viewer. Have a look at this pictures of Alfonso Bassave, a Spanish actor, for instance,because he does have a hooked nose: You may think he is ugly because of his nose, but even without looking at his body, which is realy strapping,I'd say he is very attractive. In fact, I think that nose makes him more attractive. Ruggedly handsome men can be very attractive in my view. I don't think George tried very hard to make Sandor look unattractive if all the fangirling is a proof, LOL. His scars are repulsive but not the rest of him. In fact he looks like the Kettleblacks and all the girls found them attractive. This is quite telling. When I said this actor was handsome while watching a TV show my husband said he was ugly, with a good body but ugly. The hell he is ugly. But men can's see why men with rugged features may be attractive, they only see pretty boys like Brad Pitt as handsome, LOL.
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Post by katie on Dec 7, 2015 19:26:28 GMT
DUDE. GRRM's description of Sandor is much pretty My Type to a T!!! And ummmm so is this Spanish actor. HELLO! I LOVE big, hooked noses, LOL! And heavy brows. And cheekbones. And dark eyes and hair. YES.
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 8, 2015 10:11:28 GMT
Then you agree with me, LOL. The funny thing is that my husband has a heavy brow, black hair, dark brown eyes and a big nose himself (not hooked but straight in his case), so he couldn't see his own appeal because he thinks his type of features is not attractive, LOL.
Sandor is pyisically the typical alpha male type with very obviously masculine features and physique, from his deep voice and tall muscular body to his harsh angular features. These are the traits high ammounts of testosterone are said to accentuate. So it is no wonder Sansa is affected by his appeal because most women are drawn to this kind of physical types. If he wasn't disfigured or acted so mean women would like him as much as they like the Kettleblacks. This contrast was chosen on purpose by George, the girly girl and the manly guy taking to each other, George likes this kind of couples where contrast is highlighted (Dany&Drogo or Daario, Jaime&Brienne, even Asha&Quarl the Maid). However, deep down they have more things in common than one would expect and this is why they fall for each other. They are also attracted to what is different in the other person. For instance, Sandor is attracted to Sansa's courtesy despite his own deliberate rudeness and she is attracted to his ferocity although she is supposed to prefer nice galant men.
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Post by sillierthings on Dec 8, 2015 23:30:57 GMT
Sandor is pyisically the typical alpha male type with very obviously masculine features and physique, from his deep voice and tall muscular body to his harsh angular features. These are the traits high ammounts of testosterone are said to accentuate. So it is no wonder Sansa is affected by his appeal because most women are drawn to this kind of physical types. He is the manliest of manly men in love with the girlies of girly girls! But seriously, you know my opinion on this. Sandor is not ugly! You mention the Kettleblacks, and their appearance in the story convinced me that GRRM did not intend Sandor to be monstrous aside from his burns and his anger issues. They are tall, black haired knights...one even has scars on his face, and that's the one Cersei convinces to seduce Margaery, even going so far as to comment that women like scars! (though maybe ones not so extreme as Sandor's). The Kettleblack's are popular with the ladies, and even better, when Sansa hears the washer-women comparing them to the Hound, she's offended on his behalf...because there is no comparison . As for his gaunt features and big nose, that doesn't mean ugly! His cheekbones and brows are sharp, then. I take it to be a sign he's under a lot of stress, maybe exerting himself too much physically and it's showing on his face. For all that people like to see him as an alcoholic, I don't think so. He drowns his pain when he can, but he's also made a point of saying that he gets drunk on his night off. I don't imagine he's drinking every night then. To be muscled like a bull, he's working out, training and staying strong. He's not wasted away or gone to fat like Robert. Imagine what is body is supposed to be like! Sigh... As for the nose, I like the nose on the actor pictured above! Again, hooked doesn't have to mean hideous.
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 9, 2015 1:08:25 GMT
I suggested in another post that his gaunt face could also be seen as a sign of his inner suffering and Katie agreed but I've just finished Jon's chapter in AGOT and Benjen is described as gaunt and sharp-featured, with bue-grey eyes. His face's description is very similar to Sandor'sj,both sharing the words sharp, gaunt and grey.
I think these similarities may be read in different ways but one of them is to show that he looks like a Northerner and he shares physical traits with the Starks,linking him to them as regards looks. In the North there aren't knights, which is convenient for someone who has a code of honour but despises knighthood.
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 9, 2015 1:19:52 GMT
I also noticed Benjen’s description here:
Benjen is sharp-featured and gaunt and has blue-GREY eyes. This reminds me of Sandor Clegane,who is said to be gaunt and have sharp cheekbones.
Sandor looks like a man of the North, not unlike Benjen, to the extent that both of them are described as gaunt. Gaunt features are not very common in a man “muscled like a bull”, like Sandor Clegane, but he is described like that. He has grey eyes like the Starks for some reason. I think the North is his destiny even if he has no Northern blood, though both things may be true in his case.
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Post by katie on Dec 9, 2015 3:31:48 GMT
Yeah, it cannot be a coincidence that he shares so many traits with the Northerners, including looks and personal ideologies. Not to mention Sansa's dream of having a daughter who looks like Arya -- the only way that would be possible is if she procreated with someone who has the Northern Look, and Arya is the only trueborn Stark with a Northern look... like Sandor, AKA the man whose son/daughter she was frequently mistaken for.
I often wonder about Sandor's brief time in Winterfell at the beginning of AGoT. I feel like he must have felt right at home, you know?
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 9, 2015 19:36:40 GMT
I agree that it can't be a coincidence that Sandor has the Northerners' looks but I didn't remember to what extent his description matches Benjen Stark's. If I had any doubts Martin made him look like a Stark on purpose,it would have to disappear after comparing these two extracts. When you add all the other circumstances you metioned there can't be any doubts this serves a purpose and it isn't a coincidence.
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Post by katie on Dec 9, 2015 20:49:01 GMT
It's especially odd considering Sandor is from the Westerlands, where people are generally fair-complexioned, yes? Also, we never really get a good physical description of Gregor outside of his physique. Like, we don't even know what color hair he has, so we have no basis of comparison. Both brothers are massive in size, but do they actually LOOK like each other?? Now, I'm not suggesting that Sandor and Gregor aren't really brothers or anything, LOL, but it has to be acknowledged that Sandor's looks are highly unusual for the region where he grew up.
But then, we don't really know much of anything about Sandor's family outside of Gregor. Maybe their mother was from the North...
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 9, 2015 21:35:06 GMT
Perhaps, some people have suggested that possibility. Some say the Clegane could be Dunk's descendants too because Bran saw a young girl (old Nan)kissing a young knight as tall as a Hodor (perhaps Dunk?).The child should have stayed in Winterfell then but I don't know.
I don't think it matters much anyway, what matters is that George decided to link this Westerner to the North in several aspects,starting by his looks and his not being a knight. What matter is George's intention, why he decided to make Sandor look like a Northerner when it's quite unlikely for a Westerner to look like that. Martin can explain his looks by means of his ancestors or anything else but what is interesting is why, what are Martin's plans for him. Perhaps to make it possible for Sansa to have a daughter who will look like Arya. Unless you think Sansa will marry Jon, which doesn't make sense in my view,Sandor is meant to father a daughter like the girl everyone took for his while they were travelling across the Riverlands.
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Post by katie on Dec 9, 2015 22:16:53 GMT
Oh I definitely believe that Sandor is descended from Dunk and Rohanne. (Could be why Sandor has a thing for redheads, heehee...) Rohanne married Gerold Lannister and became Lady of Casterly Rock, and she disappeared "under mysterious circumstances" shortly after the birth of her youngest child. Her eldest son was Tytos Lannister, who was rescued from the lioness by his kennelmaster, Grandpa Clegane. Could Rohanne's disappearance have had something to do with an affair or an illegitimate pregnancy? And perhaps that bastard child remained at the Rock and grew up to be kennelmaster? And unwittingly saved his own half-brother from a lioness?
Now, Brienne is most definitely descended from Dunk too; GRRM made that rather clear, LOL. I don't know if the knight that Bran saw kissing Young Nan was Dunk, but it's certainly plausible, because we do know he ends up at Winterfell at some point (the next D&E story will be "The She-Wolves of Winterfell"). Perhaps Dunk was leaving bastards alllll up and down Westeros!! LOL
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the SansaxJon shippers latch on to Sansa's dream as "evidence" for their ship, but you kind of HAVE to grasp at straws to make that ship legit anyway. It bears mentioning that Sansa has that dream in the same book where Arya is mistaken for Sandor's son/daughter...
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 10, 2015 0:00:24 GMT
I think that narratively speaking Sasa x Jon doesn't work. George has used hints, clues and literary techniques that indicate something will happen between Sansa and Sandor and I don't think all of them are red herrings but rather the opposite. There are too many and a writer doesn't waste so much buildup for nothing. I'm also sure Brienn is Dunk's descendant, I agree with you. With Sandor there are loads of parellelisms but I don't think it really matters if Dunk is Sandor's ancestor, what matters is that they are connected by many references. When I read D&E novellas it became so obvious that I couldn't believe it. In spirit they are very similar,that gentle or not ungentle in Sandor's case, nature and idealism is present in both non-knights,KG´s, tall as castle wall's men. Sandor is Dunk gone all wrong due to what Gregor did to him and the life he led. He is there as an example of how someone with good qualities and intentions can become a killer and nearly a monster.Meribalds speech explains this very well, that anyone can become a killer and some even monsters under extreme circumstances.
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Post by katie on Dec 10, 2015 5:20:45 GMT
And that ties back in with our earlier private discussion about Sandor being more than just a murdering asshole. GRRM stopped in the middle of AFFC just to write an ENTIRE FREAKING EULOGY for Sandor, spoken by Elder Brother to Brienne, and Meribald's Broken Men speech definitely applies to him as well. If Sandor was just meant to be some irredeemable douche bag, why would George have wasted so much page time on him??
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Post by eakowot on Aug 4, 2019 16:26:18 GMT
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Post by eyaloquxjusi on Aug 4, 2019 18:57:30 GMT
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