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Post by sillierthings on Dec 13, 2015 5:22:29 GMT
I don't know if this properly fits under plot, but it has to do with certain plot points and parallels GRRM draws between characters. To be honest, I don't know quite what I want to say about the following passages, but I noticed some connections and I was hoping you all would be able to discuss (or tell me I'm reaching too far or whether this is all meandering nonsense).
In rereading Storm of Swords, I came upon this passage from the Tyrion chapter detailing the fight between Oberyn and Gregor Clegane:
This gave me pause because, of course, this his exactly how Sansa describes Tyrion turned Sandor in her dream (only then, he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be). Is it significant beyond the fact that it reminds us that both brothers loom larger than other men? It does create a parallel between the Sandor/Sansa relationship and that of Cersei/Gregor. As Ser Robert Strong, or even here, Gregor becomes the chivalric knight for Cersei or rather they become a terrible parody of the chivalric romance. Jaime abandons Cersei to her fate, and its Ser Robert Strong who literally picks her up and protects her after her walk of shame. Qyburn calls him Cersei's champion.
Whether or not Sandor has made a vow (which is doubtful), he is living with the brothers who do take vows of silence, living in a monastery and serving the gods.
Later in ADWD, we also have
This pretty much describes Sandor at this point as well: not speaking, hiding his face, and GRRM has cast doubts about whether he is alive or not (he totally is...but still).
Is any of this significant? Or is it just one of those "grace notes" -- showing us different versions of the giant knight and his lady? I feel like it suggests that Sandor and Gregor will meet again. Not for "Clegane-bowl," not for Sandor to get his vengeance, but given that Sansa is due to slay a giant, I think it would be VERY fitting if she kills Gregor for Sandor. I know I've said that before, but more and more it makes sense to me. Tyrion is a "giant" of a Lannister, but I think his story with Sansa is done for the most part. For all that I hate Tyrion for what he did to Sansa, she's kind of over it and him. She's not holding on to any hatred for him. She feels kind of bad for him. She doesn't want to be married to him but she doesn't like the idea of him being murdered for something he didn't do. All told, as long as she doesn't have to be around him or feel responsible for his death, Sansa doesn't think much about Tyrion.
Petyr, with is stone giant sigil, COULD be the giant she slays, but Lady Stoneheart is out there for a reason. There is unresolved business between Petyr and Cat. If Sansa killed Petyr, I wouldn't be disappointed exactly, but....
What giant does that leave? Gregor Clegane's wight. Ser Robert Strong. The headless giant. (As an aside, The Hound himself is a kind of body-less giant at the moment. Ser Robert has no head, and the Hound persona is being passed along via the helmet.)
For all that I love me some metaphor with Tyrion the giant and Petyr the giant, I'm wondering if it's a red herring? I mean Gregor is an actual-factual giant. We are told again and again how large he is. Cerise has this dreamy description of him when he picks her up after the walk of shame:
Also, to go back to A Storm of Swords, the "David and Goliath" imagery is very clear. The smaller man, armed with a spear -- not really the best weapon to use here, much like David and his sling against Goliath. Contrary to expectations though, Oberyn and David bring down the giant.
Oberyn, like David, lifts the sword to chop of the giant's head, presumably. However, this giant is not quite dead and Oberyn's cause is not quite as just perhaps -- the gods' will is at play here, but that's something to discuss on a different thread, maybe.
The point is, Gregor is a giant. A literal giant. Cersei is still hellbent on finding Sansa and having her killed. At the moment, the Mad Mouse knows exactly who she is and ready to sell her out. I think Cersei will find out where Sansa is. I think she will send her giant champion to get Sansa. I think the giant's brother will be involved, AND in a nice bit of inversion, the maiden will save her knight by killing the the monster instead of him saving her. After all, Sansa is an experience monster killer -- she's the one who dealt a death blow to the Hound (as one of you wrote about so eloquently).
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Post by katie on Dec 13, 2015 6:08:06 GMT
And let's not forget Oswell Kettleblack. He delivered Petyr and Sansa to Gulltown. His sons are in kind of in a pickle in KL right now, and he might be willing to offer some valuable info to the Crown in order to save them...
As I've said numerous times before, if "Cleganebowl" DOES happen in the books, it's not gonna be the vengeful Battle Royale the fanboys are anticipating -- more likely it will involve Sandor not even realizing that Ser Robert is/was Gregor, and it will be his desire to protect Sansa that will be the impetus. But yeah, the prophecy clearly states that SANSA will slay the giant. Perhaps Sandor does attempt to come to her rescue, but let's face it, he is NOT in fighting shape, so it's likely his attempts to save Sansa won't go so well, and Sansa has to step in and take care of bidness herself.
OR the prophecy simply referred to Sweetrobin's stupid doll. Ugh.
(As an aside, as much as I hate using the show as a litmus test, it might be worth noting that, in Season 5, LF straight-up tells Cersei exactly where Sansa is... And Cersei is pretty anxious to get at her. Since the show omitted the Kettleblacks, and since we all know they are pro-Cleganebowl, this might be the show's way of delivering that valuable information to Cersei, as opposed to finding out via Oswell Kettleblack... just something to consider...)
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 13, 2015 12:20:57 GMT
So they took the fair maid to Gulltown,hey-ho, hey-ho. It does make a lot of sense, yes!
I have given up on the show for good,I don't even see the trailers, but even those two producers obsession with Cleganebowl and violence (and also disgusting sex and shock value),this interpretation of yours works well, it does make sense. I understand that you,Kate, keep watching the show because of your work in the media and because you are a writer and director. As this show is so mediatic it's convenient for you to see it even if it is to critisize its MANY flaws.
I used to think that twists in the show indicated what was going to happen in the books. For instance the show made me think that SanSan would never happen because they would have cast someone younger or at least younger-looking as Sandor. I know that their relationship isn't about looks but you know how media works. These two don't fit together. As Sillier-Things says there's much more chemistry between Rory and Maisie on screen. The show only mingled with what I had read and distorted it, so that some times I doubted I had understood the books at all. No way I'm going to make this happen any more,especially now that it's clear they are not respecting the source material.
But let's go back to to the topic. I love it, I love how you connected these two brothers in your post. Cersei,like Jaine looks regal and beautiful but is not a true lady,and her chapion is not a true knight whereas Sansa is indeed a true lady and her "champion" was never knighted but is the truest knight in the series (with Brienne's permision). The parallelism and the contrast is there,yes.
Now that Gregor is no longer in this world I don't even think Robert Strong is evil. He is like the monster of Frankestein,whose brain had belonged to a criminal but wasn't evil himself. Gregor no longer exists,only this monster that picks up his lady with the same care Sandor picked up Sansa and carried her in his arms. RS strong does the same, he is the perfect champion carrying his lady in his arms to safety separating her from the same people who tried to savage and rape Sansa. The parallelism is there,I think. Two ladies, two saviours,that's what I see.
The way ser Robert treats the queen is endearing in a sinister sort of way and it feels "lovely" and haunting in it's gothic style. She is beautiful but evil and he is undead, freakishly strong and loyal,like a twisted version of "his former brother" Sandor. They are a perversion of chivalry,there we have the perfect deconstruction and I really love it. But there won't be Cleanebowl in the sense that Gregor Clegane no longer exists and this Farnkenstein monster is already doomed. Killing him will be an act of mercy instead of revenge. This goes perfectly well with one of the main themes of the novels:Mercy.
So it would be beautiful if Sandor killed his brother in an act of mercy or if Sansa or Sandor himself did that in an act of love to save the the other. But as regards the plot itself I wonder when would this happen, because Cersei's children are supposed to die before her and she is to be killed by the Valonquar with his own hands. Does this mean she won't die when ser Robert is killed?
There's another thing, what about Sandor? Don't you think he'll face his phobia again, perhaps killing a dragon as some have suggested?
Why did he tell Sansa some thought his burns were caused by a dragon when they had died out before he was even born if this wasn't a foreshadowing for future events? Any thoughts?
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Post by sillierthings on Dec 13, 2015 14:19:06 GMT
That does seem like it could be foreshadowing. However, I'm not aware of any other dragon references in connection to Sandor. We know Rh'llor is not done with him for some reason and that he's been burned twice. Third time is the charm, I imagine. It would make sense for him to face fire again if we go by that rule of 3. I just don't see enough evidence in the text to make me believe he will face a dragon instead of fire in some other form. Doesn't mean it won't happen, but I'd like to see more textual support.
You could also look at that bitterness over people thinking it's dragon fire as a sign that true pain and horror doesn't have to come from a supernatural source. The greatest evil for Sandor was in his own home, and people are fools if they don't believe that...hence his need to tell Sansa, to warn her.
Still, yeah, I'd love to see Sandor be a great dragonslayer provided that he survives and stays with Sansa and makes lots of babies. Neither the dragons nor the wights will survive the end of the story, I don't think, so that means someone has to kill them if they don't kill each other first.
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 13, 2015 18:27:39 GMT
It's very strange for anyone to think a young man's burns could have been caused by a dragon when no one has ever seen a dragon in so many years, it's ridiculous,in my view. When I read it, it surpised me and thought,"what the fuck,this is so stupid." Why would people think he was burned by an extinguished animal? This is too much,so this must mean something. This could be that Sandor is going to fight a dragon or pehaps George is indicating the readers that dragons are coming back to the world,Dany's dragons. I think Sandor has to face fire again otherwise he'll always feel suspended back in time and being the prisoner of two actions: his torture at his brother's hands and much later his desertion in KL. He felt defeated and helpless in both cases and he needs to get over this to go on with his life, or rather to have a life for the first time. Narratively speaking I think he needs this, not to redeem himself but to get over what happened to him.
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Post by sillierthings on Dec 13, 2015 20:18:28 GMT
I keep coming back to the Red Cross Knight from Spenser's the Faerie Queen, who slays a dragon. Do you see anything that GRRM might be playing with or reinventing based upon this summary? www2.ivcc.edu/rambo/lit2001_Faerie_Queene.htm |
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 13, 2015 21:12:13 GMT
Wow! This is fantastic. I didn't know this story because as you can imagine there are many works in the Anglo-Saxon tradition that I don't know. But I love it, it's the kind of story that I love. George is a well-read man and must have read this story.
There are so many things in common with ASoIaF that can't be ignored. In my view, Red Cross is undoubtedly Sandor and Una is Sansa,although her parents can no longer be saved.
Red Cross is tempted by Archimago with that sexy dream where Una tries to seduce him but he doesn't give in to temptation. Sandor was attracted to Sansa but he never made any sexual advances on her. However,when he got to know that she had married Tyrion he fell into absolute despair. When Red Cross was trapped by Despair Una saved him, in ASoIaF the situation may be similar because Sandor was losing his soul when Sansa turned up in his life and she became a reson for the Beast,the dog, to regain his humanity. She even asked him why he let people call him "Dog".
Red Cross has to fight in several duels,and Sandor fought his brother Gregor and later Beric Dondarrion. Those fights resembled duels. There probably will be a third one.
Knights in medieval stories usually set off on a journey,and that's what Sandor did although his companion was Arya instead of Sansa. These knights are usually wounded and have to spend some time in a holy place,like Red Cross and also Sandor did (the QI).
There's also the witch and the giant Orgoglio,who have some sort of twisted affair where she becomes his mistress. They remind me of Cersei and Gregor. When the witch is stripped of her clothes everybody can see what age has done to her body. This is like Cersei's walk of shame to some extent.
Sandor means "protector of men",so it would make sensa for him to become some sort of Saint George,the dragon slayer. He is wounded,he stays in a holy place, he loves a lady but he doesn't have sex with her,he is burnt by Gregor but he says to Sansa some believe his burns were caused by a dragon. God, this is incredible! Red Cross lies under trees that can speak and Sandor lies next to a tree that can see. Red Cross fights a dragon and is first burned by dragon breath and then wounded by it,but he recovers at the foot of a blessed three. Hell, the Hound died by the Trident but Sandor was saved at the foot of a Heart Tree. Like Red Cross he had once felt guilty and desperate but he was reminded of his good deeds by Charity and Mercy, my god.
Sandor is too much like Red Cross for these to be coincidences.
We also have King Arthur,a hero for Una like the hero Sansa asked for when her father was beheaded. She wished a hero would behead Janos Slynt and that hero was Jon,the boy who is a prince but doesn't know, exactly like king Arthur,LOL.
King Arthur is obsessed with the Faerie Queen and Jon has Melissandre,who may become his obsession. Jon would be the hero of ASoIaF is this story is as similar as the Faerie Queen as it seems.
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 13, 2015 21:32:54 GMT
Ah,and all those guys trying to rape Una,poor girl, just what they do to Sansa. But Una manages to remain a maiden until she becomes Red Cross's betrothed.Sandor has to become Sansa's betrothed, he must. And finally Red Cross has to fulfil his six-year pledge before coming back to his lady. Knights in medievel stories are sinners and they usually set off on a pilgrimage that separates them from their lady,they suffer, they are wounded but they survive and come back purified,worthy of their fair lady.
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Post by sillierthings on Dec 13, 2015 21:51:31 GMT
Yes! I'm so glad you saw the connections because sometimes I doubt myself. However, The Faerie Queen is pretty standard reading for any English major at a university. I'd be surprised if GRRM had not read it.
I read the first 4 books, and I always loved the Red Cross Knight and Una the best. I wrote a short thesis on the 4th book of the Faerie Queen and the use of the "male gaze."
Also, did you notice the names of the 3 brothers? Sansfoy, Sansloy, and Sansjoy? To be without faith, loyalty or joy?
The giant, Duessa - Gregor and Cersei --that's what I was thinking, too. Gregor and Cersei, the inverted chivalric romance, the mirror of Sansa and Sandor -- mirroring and taking on false identities is a very common trope in the Faerie Queen.
And look how important the virtue of Mercy is in this tale:
"Charity, another character residing in the House of Holiness, educates Red Cross on practicing love instead of hate, while Mercy instructs the knight on forms of charity. Contemplation leads the knight to the top of a high mountain and informs Red Cross that he will one day enter the New Jerusalem as St. George, the patron saint of England. Refreshed and restored, Red Cross once again rejoins Una on their journey to her native land."
After his restoration on the Quiet Isle, will Sandor join Sansa to return to her native land, Winterfell?
And Jon as Arthur -- yes, this is good. The Red Cross Knight is A hero in the tale, but not THE Hero. Just like Sandor in comparison to Jon.
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 13, 2015 21:51:56 GMT
One fool asked if it was dragonbreath. This is what doesn't make sense because there is no one fool enough to think he was burned by a dragon. If anyone said that now we would believe he had taken drugs or something. But you have found the explanation to this. I noticied the piece that didn't seem to find its place and you have found out why. This piece belongs to another story,to something that will happen.Sandor is a sinner,like Red Cross and he has his quest,like him,and he is in love with a lady that he can't dream of having. I think Sandor will become a dragon slayer,or at least,this is very likely.
Sansa may save him from the giant,like Una saved red Cross from Orgoglio the giant but Sandor may also become a dragon slayer,like Red Cross.
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 13, 2015 22:16:44 GMT
Hey,another one. King Arthur had this unhealthy relationship with Morgana the Fay. Hell,they are like Jon and Melissander. If Jon is like King Arthur,tragedy will taint his story as much as glory and Jon is a tragic figure. I think this is clear by now, it probably was from the beginning,with that future of renounce and glory in the Night's Watch,he is the great hero that doesn't belong to this world completely.
What about Archimago wearing a helmet and people thinking he is Red Cross? Like Rorge and Lem,or later Brienne wearing the Hound's helm. They even think they killed Red Cross but they killed another. This is what happened to Sandor,LOL. He is thought to be dead,but he is alive and resting in a holy place like Red Cross,having received mercy and charity at last.
Oh,the dagger. Red Cross raises his dagger very much like Sandor did in his moment of deepest despair. He put it on Sansa's throat but perhaps he thought he should take her life and then his,for whatever was going to happen was nightmarish. He was absolutely hopeless and desperate. Ah,but she sang a song of mercy, Mother of Mercy,that's what she sang, helping him out of his cave of despair and thus saving both of their lives.
Sansa can always read Sandor's intentions,except when there's sexual innuendo which is beyond her age and in that moment she feared for her life,but never for her maidenhood.
As always,she was right. He could have killed her and then taken his own life,trapped in his cave of dark despair,thinking that was an act of mercy. We can't forget that he thinks killing is the sweetest thing there is; as you always say, he has a suicide wish and he sometimes kills with tenderness,the way he killed that soldier who was suffering.
She probably saved both of their lives that night. I still think there are sexual undertones in that scene,but it contains several layers,that's what makes it so haunting and confusing.There are several layers her, and one of them is probably Sandor's death wish and how he could have thought of killing her in an act of mercy given that he couldn't take her with him.His motivation wasn't hurting her,but saving her from a fate that was worse than death,and he knows very well life is sometimes worse than death.
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Post by sillierthings on Dec 13, 2015 22:22:08 GMT
Yes...yes. This fits. It makes sense to make a man burned by fire to face the dragon. Narratively, this makes sense. Seeing the connection to the Red Cross Knight makes it even clearer to me. Sandor is on the Quiet Isle, purifying himself for a final battle against evil so that he can win his fair maid. Btw, the Red Cross Knight's story is a variant on the story of St. George and the Dragon. In a version of that, the Una character is named Sabra. Not that it's sooo close to Sansa, but it's not so far off  . |
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 13, 2015 22:24:37 GMT
My god, it is very close to Sansa,very close indeed!
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 13, 2015 23:28:05 GMT
As I don't know the story like you do,I've read this other review on it,and the more I read it,the more obvious the connections seem. www.sparknotes.com/poetry/fqueen/section1.rhtml Everything is fascinating,starting with the quest the christian knight has to start in order to become pure and a good christian. George chooses to introduce a "knight" who is not such and who claims he doesn't believe in gods but finds shelter for the first time in his life thanks to holy men on the QI. As this story is supposed an allegory of conquering true faith, it isn't strange that the knight's ladylove is called Una,which means "Truth". And what is Sandor's obsession? Truth.The man who abhors lies and false pretenses loves a girl who tells him his monstruous brother was not a true knight. Truth is as important for Sandor as it is for the FQ's characters,although in a different way. The faith is also becoming very important in ASoIaF,morroring this struggles between the Catholic church and the Anglican church the FQ's story symbolizes. There's another thing Sandor hates,and this is greed, wealth and arrogant pomp,much like the first protestants hated the same traits in the church or Rome.I don't mean Sandor represents protestatism or anything,but his story is based on the FQ,no doubt. It won't be the only story is based on,of course, but it is a very important source of inspiration for Sandor's journey and also Sansa's. Sandor also wears a white cloak,like the RCross knight,and there isn't a red cross painted on it,but how often is it stained with blood? Red on white? Sandor and Sansa embody a sort a version of the Red Knight's story where the pagan elements (the sacred tree,the old faith, or even Sandor's despair and lack of faith)mingle with the religious one's in a fascinating way. We also have the faith of the seven which resembles the Catholic church as opposed to the High Sparrow,who resembles the protestants. What does the god of fire represent, I wonder? What is clear is that tolerance is George's message because he presents fanatism as something horrible (burning people alive like Melissandre does with Stannis's consent. She reminds me of the Inquisition although in her case,it's tainted with witchcraft). All these historic and medieval themes and references that can be observed are really fascinating. This proves again that originality is overrated and every story has been told before. The magic is in how you tell the story and the message you deliver,and also the themes you bring up for readers to consider. |
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 14, 2015 0:50:55 GMT
I looked for the meaning of the name George and see what I found, that it means "husband,farmer",that it's related to the renewal and to the god of crops and harvest. If Sandor is the dragon slayer and thus another Sait George,he is meant to bring renewal and fertility to the barren land after the long winter that's coming.
I once told sillier-things that I saw another myth in Sandor and Gregor,cainismo, as we call it in Spanish referring to Cain,brotherly hatred. It's very powerful two. I said that Sandor is the victim,like Abel,but he is the one who bears the mark and is shunned for it. As if he was paying for his brother's sins. Cain,the bearer of the mark,was spared by god who forbid anyone who foud him to take his life and he was doomed to roam the earth without being killed. He was a farmer too,and although he was a killer he founded the first city and took a wife and had a son. He was the first man to be born out of Paradise.
Sandor is treated like a criminal,chased and also expelled by the villag people after helping them after he leaves KL,much like Cain, and taken for a monster (Saltpans)when the real Cain,the real monster is Gregor,who doesn't bear any marks.
The name Sandor,Alexander means protector of people.
It seems George chose Sandor's name very carefully and nothing seems casual.
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