|
|
Post by sillierthings on Dec 17, 2015 1:31:14 GMT
To derail the conversation for a moment, Brienne's story reminds me of the medieval tale of the Loathly Lady: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loathly_ladyObviously, Brienne's looks actually get worse after she has part of her face bitten off, but she does become more beautiful to Jaime as he comes to love her. And in one version of the tale: "The lady sadly understood that Diarmuid’s love for her had died. She couldn't live in his world any more than he could live in hers." I could see Brienne and Jaime parting in such a fashion -- him saving her or vice -versa, but ultimately not able to be together. (On another note, I'm kind of liking the idea of Brienne and Hyle getting together). |
|
|
|
Post by eyesofmist on Dec 26, 2015 10:50:24 GMT
I've read the tale of sir Gawain and lady Ragnel. He was handsome and she was hideous and he had to marry her but didn't want to hurt her feelings.So he treated her right and every day she seemed less ugly in his eyes, until one day he came to her and she looked beautiful. She offered him to choose when she would be a beauty, at night or during the day, and he chose the day so that nobody would despise her for her ugliness any more. His selfless choice broke the spell and she recovered her beauty for ever.
George is playing with old tales once again and here we have an imperfect arrogant knight and a girl who won't turn into a beauty for all to see but whose beauty he learnt to see whereas she learnt to find the good in him that no one could see, not even Jaime himself.
|
|
|
|
Post by eyesofmist on Dec 26, 2015 13:11:32 GMT
I also like the idea of Brienne and Hyle together, I always have had that impession too, although I don't know what this feeling is based upon. I never ship for the sake of it but I also had the feeling these two fit together. Perhaps there was something to it in the text. And you know that I think Jaime will have a tragic ending and their "love" or whatever it is won't bloom. I think their relatioship is beautiful, as beautiful,deep and meaningful as Sandor and Sansa's, probably, but more complicated,less clear. What I mean is that SanSan is the romance of the series, I see it as a classical love story with all the components of a classical romance. Jaime and Brienne have a mixture of "bromance" (although I know she is a girl, but she behaves like one of the boys when with him),genuinely caring for one another, reading each other like an opnen book, respect and also physical attraction but I don't see their relationship as a romance, not completely. There's tragedy written all over Jaime and he can't belong to Brienne because he belongs to another (Cersei)and will never be free from her until they die. They came together into the world and will leave it together.He has also taken vowns, whereas Sandor refused to do so.
I also think that love is more than what Jaime and Brienne have, as beautiful as it is.Romantic love is not only the sum of affection plus physical attraction,there's more to it although a couple could work with this mixuture alone. Love is what Sandor and Sansa have,there's magic in it,and sometimes a simple glance can be the spark for a great love. Love is madness and the unexplainable, very often it seems unattainable and incomprehensible but despite this, it's there and it's not just reasonable warmth and good sex. There may be even great love without sex or love without so much affection. At least this is what I think ,though I may be wrong. With Jaime and Brienne I see something but I wouldn't call it romantic love. What Jaime had for Cersei was romantic love,though twisted and toxic. What he feels for Brienne is something else,although it could develp into a successful relationship. They aren't like Lancelot and Guinevere in my view,that's how I see it. Perhaps they are like Arthur and Guinevere but not like Lancelot and Guinevere,there is something missing.
Maybe this is only the ideal image of romantic love I have on my mind, like many people,but for some unique and unrepeatable moments it did exist and I felt it. If it doesn't come to terms with reality it is sentenced to die,but for some time it's magic. I don't think Jaime and Brienne ever had that but I think Sandor and Sansa will and that perhaps they already glimpsed what it feels like,when she cupped his cheek and felt his tears, for instance. Love is not always fun,but it's incredibly powerful.
|
|
|
|
Post by sillierthings on Dec 26, 2015 16:23:50 GMT
I feel like Hyle started out as a jerk, but he's a product of his time and his society. He's a practical man, and as he and Brienne travel together, you can see that he's come to respect her. If Brienne and Hyle were to marry, I think it could be a successful match. It would not be a love match, but there could be mutual respect. I don't know if I "ship" it, but he did seriously offer to marry her, no false declarations of love. It's a practical match, and without Brienne marrying and having children, what happens to her father's line? It's gone. In this story, that's a bad thing. I'm not saying Brienne has to marry, that it's her job to marry, but it's not a bad offer if she were inclined to do so. As you say above, eyesofmist, Jaime "can't belong to Brienne because he belongs to another."
Brienne is in an untenable position right now. She really cannot be a knight, though she is the most pure of all the knights. I put a lot of trust in Elder Brother's assessment of Brienne and her situation. He's certainly been right about Sandor, so I have to believe we are meant to trust his advice to her. She's had her adventure and proven herself as a knight, but she has a home. She has a father. One thing that comes out again and again in this novel: family must come first. A wolf without a pack doesn't survive. This is not to say that the characters cannot make their own families or packs, but Brienne has a father who loves her very much, a father who appears to have let her be herself as much as she could be in such a society. She loves him --there is no rancor in her thoughts when she mentions her father. She's going to have to go home and deal with that situation.
Does Brienne want to marry and be a mother? Yes, I think she probably would on one level. There's no shame in that (though many would say this is degrading her character to want her to "just" be a mother). She admired Catelyn greatly and pledged herself to her. Unlike in the show, Brienne is very motherly and kind to Pod. We could say that Brienne searching for Sansa is a knightly quest, and there is no doubt about that, but it was a quest put to her by a mother. Brienne has this aspect as well. I don't think that she's going to be happy just as a knight -- though she is not truly that either--a woman cannot be a knight. She's a woman caught between worlds, and she'll need to make her choice to find peace.
|
|
|
|
Post by eyesofmist on Dec 26, 2015 16:42:08 GMT
And in medieval legends knights always set off, like Brienne on a journey, on a quest, but there was always a destination for that journey and many even came back home after completing their jouney and fufilling their mission. So it makes sense for Brienne to find her place in the world in the end,unless she ascends to heaven, like ser Galahad, because he was too pure for this world. But perhaps she is less pure and more human than Galahad who was not affected by the temptations of the fless. After all she was very attracted to Renly and then Jaime, she feels attracted to men and would make a good parent because she has a lot of love to give and is very kind. It would be nice if she could have her family.
|
|
|
|
Post by sillierthings on Dec 26, 2015 20:34:28 GMT
Agreed. She does have a lot of love. She's as loving and romantic as Sansa but because of her looks, her story has played out very differently.
I think I wonder if I am drawn to Hyle for Brienne because There's something similar in the way he gets to know Brienne and the way Jaime does . Traveling on the road together, they initially hold each other in contempt but they eventually start to get along with Hyle even commenting on Brienne's lips and their kissability.
Ser Hyle pulled off his boots to warm his feet by the fire. When Brienne sat down next to him, he nodded at the far end of the room. "There are bloodstains on the floor over there where Dog is sniffing. They've been scrubbed, but the blood soaked deep into the wood, and there's no getting it out."
"This is the inn where Sandor Clegane killed three of his brother's men," she reminded him.
"'Tis that," Hunt agreed, "but who is to say that they were the first to die here . . . or that they'll be the last."
"Are you afraid of a few children?"
"Four would be a few. Ten would be a surfeit. This is a cacophony. Children should be wrapped in swaddling clothes and hung upon the wall until the girls grow breasts and the boys are old enough to shave."
"I feel sorry for them. All of them have lost their mothers and fathers. Some have seen them slain."
Hunt rolled his eyes. "I forgot that I was talking to a woman. Your heart is as mushy as our septon's porridge. Can it be? Somewhere inside our swordswench is a mother just squirming to give birth. What you really want is a sweet pink babe to suckle at your teat." Ser Hyle grinned. "You need a man for that, I hear. A husband, preferably. Why not me?"
"If you still hope to win your wager - "
"What I want to win is you, Lord Selwyn's only living child. I've known men to wed lackwits and suckling babes for prizes a tenth the size of Tarth. I am not Renly Baratheon, I confess it, but I have the virtue of being still amongst the living. Some would say that is my only virtue. Marriage would serve the both of us. Lands for me, and a castle full of these for you." He waved his hand at the children. "I am capable, I assure you. I've sired at least one bastard that I know of. Have no fear, I shan't inflict her upon you. The last time I went to see her, her mother doused me with a kettle of soup."
A flush crept up her neck. "My father's only four-and-fifty. Not too old to wed again and get a son by his new wife."
"That's a risk . . . if your father weds again and if his bride proves fertile and if the babe's a boy. I've made worse wagers."
"And lost them. Play your game with someone else, ser."
"So speaks a maid who has never played the game with anyone. Once you do you'll take a different view. In the dark you'd be as beautiful as any other woman. Your lips were made for kissing."
"They are lips," said Brienne. "All lips are the same."
"And all lips are made for kissing," Hunt agreed pleasantly. "Leave your chamber door unbarred tonight, and I will steal into your bed and prove the truth of what I say."
"If you do, you'll be a eunuch when you leave." Brienne got up and walked away from him."
All that being said, if Brienne does not want him, she should not marry him, but there's something in their banter that makes me think it could work.
|
|
|
|
Post by katie on Dec 26, 2015 20:36:25 GMT
I agree about Brienne and Hyle, I hope they end up together. Hyle seems genuinely remorseful for having been a dick before and seems very sincere about wanting to make it up to her and help out. He certainly doesn't have to; he's under no obligation. It'll be interesting to see how Jaime reacts to him (and vice-versa) once they all come together in TWOW, which seems likely to happen given where we left off with them. But yeah, Jaime is not going to survive this series, and his fate is too intertwined with Cersei for anything with Brienne to really come to fruition anyway. I think the tragedy of his story is finding someone who is basically the anti-Cersei, forging a deep connection with her, but not being able to explore it further because he's in too deep with Cersei. Of course, there are those who believe that Brienne won't survive the books either. I hope that's not true...  |
|
|
|
Post by eyesofmist on Dec 26, 2015 23:12:29 GMT
So do I, I hope she survives and and the only reason for her to die that I can think of is that she is so much like ser Galahad,the purest of knights,who went directly to heaven because he was like an angel of purity. but Bri is earthy, she likes handsome men and is very affenctionate, so I see her having her own family with Hyle,perhaps. Or he may fall for her but she is unable to trust him any more,like the heiress in that Olivia de Havilland old movie,where the plain girl has a suitor at last but leaves him when she discovers he was after her money. And the tragedy is that in the beginning it was true that he only wanted her money but he ended up falling in love with her. She was too proud to accept him,even after discovering he loved her truly.
Well, this is fanfiction, I know,but I want her to survive and I hope she will. In fact I'm convinced Jaime won't survive and have accpeted this will happen but I still want Brienne to survive.
And it's true that she's loyal to a lady, not a lord,she promised her to find her daughters and bring them to safety. All this makes me think that she could have her own family one day. Perhaps she will be like Dunk,her ancestor. Dunk became a KG but he managed to have descendants because Brienne came to exist. I don't know but I would like her to find happiness.
|
|
