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Post by sillierthings on Feb 13, 2015 4:14:43 GMT
While Sandor does have a sexual appreciation of Sansa, that is not the main focus of his desire. He wants her love. He wants her to love HIM, to look at HIM. He won't turn off the lights, hand her a glass of wine and promise to be the Knight of Flowers in the dark, like Tyrion suggests. Sandor wants love and he wants it to be sincere. I wonder what made him think he deserved her love? Do you think he DOES think he deserved it or had a chance? We see things from Sansa's perspective, so we see the little things that give away Sandor's affections. What do you think Sansa does that might make him think she could WANT to look at him and go with him? Because I don't think Sandor's stupid. I don't think he'd just force himself on her the way he does in the Blackwater scene if he didn't think there was some remote chance she was into him as well--and not just for protection. What do you think? Am I being too romantic ?
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maidenpools
Junior Member
hyped for a re-read!!
Posts: 50
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 13, 2015 15:08:56 GMT
You're not being too romantic at all! I think a big part of Sandor's connection to and desire for Sansa is based on his impression of her as a bastion of goodness in the fog of deception that is King's Landing and the world in general. As I discussed in my meta, when Sansa comforts him after he tells her about what Gregor did to him, it's the first time anyone has reached out to him that way, and it's particularly unusual to him that it would be Sansa who does it, as he connects her with the hypocrisy and superficiality of the system of chivalry (the system that hurt him but which a part of him still desperately wants to uphold). That moment is when she becomes special to him, though he's still unable to trust her because he can't believe that anyone could truly be that empathetic - at the time, he dismisses her empathy as her just repeating all the "pretty words" she's been told to say, but by the end of the pivotal Blackwater scene, he's finally aware that her empathy was totally real, and something he doesn't think he deserves. I would argue that he does not think of her sexually until about a half a year after the "he was no true knight" scene, after she has flowered and is considered a young woman by Westerosi standards (even though Sandor is aware that she is still not mature enough for anything sexual and he says so himself). It's interesting to note that he calls her "child" once or twice prior to her flowering, at which point he begins to refer to her as "girl" (as well as "little bird" - but never by her name).
All that aside, I believe that special connection she made with him lead him to believe, if only subconsciously, that she had it in her heart to love him because of the empathy she showed him and because a part of him believes that he has the capacity to be the true knight she longs for. Unfortunately, she is not old enough to truly reciprocate his feelings and is frightened and confused by his treatment of her, and his own self-loathing and PTSD distorts his chivalrous intentions. I feel like post-Quiet Isle Sandor will be well on his way to dealing with these issues, and meanwhile, Sansa is slowly experiencing a sexual awakening to which he is explicitly linked.
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Post by katemarzullo on Feb 22, 2015 7:33:06 GMT
I dunno if it was so much that he thought he deserved her love/affection or even thought he had a shot with her... I think he just knew that this was a girl who was compassionate to a fault, and since she had unfailingly shown him kindness on multiple occasions, he felt (rightfully so) that they had some sort of "bond", that she was someone he could confide in and know that it would be safe between the two of them. Also, there's the "throwaway" line: "Take a good long stare. You know you want to. I've watched you turning away all the way down the kingsroad." He caught her stealing glances at him during their journey to King's Landing - an expression of curiosity, which he clearly felt obliged to explore further by approaching her during their stay near the Trident. The fact that she STILL offered him that compassion when he was at his very lowest moment - pointing a knife to her throat while pinning her to her bed and demanding a song - was just TOO much.
Maidenpools's pointing out that Sandor refers to her as "child" pre-flowering reminded me of how ACoK-Sansa III opens with Sandor in her her room as she is dressing to answer Joffrey's summons. I always wonder, how long was he in there? We know she sleeps either naked or in a thin shift; was he actually the one who woke her up? Was he standing there the whole time she was getting dressed? Even if he was, though, I feel like he still considered her a child at this point (which she was) and would not have found anything particularly inappropriate in seeing her in a state of undress, (He'd already seen her in that aforementioned thin shift.) And as I mentioned on the Tumblrs the other day, he has no noted interactions with her between their encounter on the roof of Maegor's (pre-menstrual) and the BoBW (full bloom). He was almost certainly aware that she had flowered at this point, and as sillier-things so marvelously pointed out, the BoBW scene did have the super-charged sensuality of a dog pursuing a she-wolf in heat, heehee.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 22, 2015 10:19:44 GMT
I think the fact that he was attracted to her dawned on him when she bumped into him on the Serpentine steps. He seems in a good mood,coming back from his day off and as he says, drunk as a dog. Perhaps he exagerated and he wasn't all that drunk but he was reeling,that is described in the scene. I guess that his body reacted before his mind did in this scene, he arrives and unexpectedly, suddenly he feels the impact of a nice female body flush against his. Just imangine,he is quite drunk and he isn't wearing his armour because he is not on duty. George lets us know he must be wearing no armour in this simple way. We know that Sansa is already as tall as Lysa who is an adult woman and men have started to notice her womanly form and look at her in a different way. Not Sandor,as far as we know,she has never mentioned that he ever said anything or looked at her in that way. Whe she caromed into him, the impression of feeling a female body against his caused a reaction in his body before he even knew who de the female was. And then he noticed it was Sansa and,honest as he always is,he expressed his surprise at noticing how she had changed, that she was so tall now,that her face looked different too,that she already had breasts. I think he found himself checking her out and he was stunned at how much she had changed,at feeling something as a result, and at his own instinctual reaction to her in that moment. Immediately,he checked himself and said that she was still a silly little bird, a child, and took her to her room safely. I think he reacted on an instinctive level and he even used some sexual innuendo (sing me a song has a double meaning, because he does want her to sing in a literal way,but he wants more from her and problaby he has just realised this is so. There was already a connection between them and she cared for her,and she cared for him too because she reacted to his terrible story in a very sympathetic way.)before he could regain his composure and take her to her room safely. I don't think there is nothing dirty in his reaction as some readers seem to think, I think he behaved quite gentlemanly although he was really drunk. He just had a reaction he couldn't avoid but then he acted the right way. If we compare him to Littlefinger,who leers at her in a way that makes her feel uncomfortable,or Tyrion, who gropes her when it's obvious she feels disgusted by his sight naked and she is there because they forced her to marry him,Sandor's behaviour seems really gentlemanly. Anyway, I think this is when he becomes aware that she's turning into a woman and that he finds her attractive as a woman, despite himself. After I read Dunk and Egg novellas, I realised what he probably means here. Tall enough for what? Tall enough for him. This is what Dunk thinks about Talselle too tall. She says that people think she is too tall and he thinks that she isn't and that she is the right height for him,then he feels embarrased because he is so young and quite shy. So I think Sandor is thinking in a very similar way because he is as tall as Dunk, perhaps he is even thinking that she is tall enough to kiss. I think it is a nice detail that me mentions her face before he mentions her breasts. This is no dirty guy who looks at women's teats before/instead of looking at their faces. Sandor looks at her face first and then notices her womanly body, and that she almost looks at a woman, and then that she is almost tall enough... for him (to kiss her?). I love this scene,it is so suggestive but in such an elegant way! In fact, I love every single scene with these two, they are great together. As for the BoBW scene in her bedroom, perhaps you have already seen it, but I have written a post explaining why that scene seems so sexy when there is no mention of sex in it and it seems erotic in some strange way despite being so dangerous and violent: eyesofmist.tumblr.com/post/107330341484/why-does-the-bobw-scene-feel-eroticThere is a deliberat choice of words that offers another reading on a different level,that is why it feels so erotic, that is what I try to show in that meta.
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Post by katie on Feb 22, 2015 19:16:08 GMT
I hadn't caught the "you're taller too, almost..." but yeah, good point! It's that "almost" that's the giveaway. And then the ellipses followed by "ah, you're still a stupid little bird" -- what was going through his mind during the ellipses? Talking himself out of finding her sexually attractive/compatible mayhaps? It would seem so! He certainly seems more uninhibited with the sexual innuendo when he's in his cups, but to his credit, he still exhibits a degree of self-control.
And yes, I think it says A LOT that Sandor is the only man who doesn't make Sansa feel uncomfortable. Of course, he's also the only man who doesn't grope her or leer at her lasciviously. He touches her a lot, yes, but never in any inappropriate ways or places. Even when he has her pinned on the bed, there's no indication of any sexual touching or contact or whatnot, when he is most certainly in the position to do so.
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