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Post by sillierthings on Dec 29, 2015 3:24:10 GMT
Does Sandor Clegane secretly like Sansa's courtesies?
There was a post on tumblr recently (and I think we all commented upon it) which debated this. I know many think that what Sandor wants most from Sansa is honesty and truth. I know many think he despises her courtesies. I'm not really sold on that.
I think he does hate empty words and the hypocrisy of court, but on the other hand, he's the little boy who wanted to be a knight. He wants to believe in chivalry and the Romance and the courtly behaviors so bad but he can't because people like his brother are knights. However, when Sansa tells him that Gregor is no "true knight," right there in their first real conversation, that's it. She's not a hypocrite. She sees the truth about Gregor, sympathizes with him, SANDOR, and from that point forward, he acts like the most knightly knight you can imagine, all the while spewing vitriol about how stupid knights are, how stupid Sansa is...he doth protest too much. At least I think so.
Besides, while drunk, lost in his thoughts and grieving about losing Sansa, he unironically admires how courteous she was while other men comment (lewdly) about her beauty. That song, that song that he cannot shut up about...that wasn't meaningless to him. He wanted that song to be real so bad that he made up a romantic tale that he repeats to Arya of all people to try to make it true.
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Post by katie on Dec 29, 2015 5:29:12 GMT
YES. I think it's entirely possible to both love and hate the same quality in a person... because it's a part of who they are. To use perhaps a flimsy example, when I was in college, I met a man whom I would soon fall in love with (and vice-versa, though we were never officially "together"), despite the fact that we were both completely opposite of our respective "types". He was a lot older and had kids, and also very simple and conservative, so he was seeking a more motherly type. Well, early-20s me was anything but simple, conservative, or motherly, LOL. I dyed my hair, wore crazy clothes, had my nose pierced, etc. He hated it, but he still loved it... He straight up told me that if we went out together as a couple, he'd make me take out my nose ring, but he didn't WANT to have to do that, because it was a part of me. At the end of the day, he didn't want to change me, and that was more important. And I see the same thing happening here with Sandor wrt to Sansa's courtesies. It does annoy him, on principle, but because it's HER, it's different. He loves Sansa, and Sansa is a "proper little lady", and so he loves that too, because it's who she is.
But lest we forget that Sandor knows the other side of Sansa too. He's seen her without her courtesies, he knows who she really is. Above all, he knows what she has been through and has had to endure, and she remains kind and courteous through it all. "Not like her bloody sister"... ;-)
Oh yes, I think Sandor was pointing out more than just an aesthetic difference between Sansa and Arya -- I think he was commenting on the fact that Sansa has handled her trauma in a so much healthier and productive way than Arya... or, indeed, than Sandor himself.
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Post by sillierthings on Dec 29, 2015 6:07:45 GMT
I don't think your example is flimsy at all (and I think it's rather beautiful to have had such a romance). He sounds like a good man to not try to keep you and change you. The only thing is, do you think Sandor really wants Sansa to change if he wanted to be with her? There's a difference between the bland courtesies Sansa repeats to mollify Cersei and Joffrey and her attempts at engaging The Hound politely. Her gentle words to the Hound are the equivalent of her trying to pet the nasty dog (such a good metaphor). He wants that pet SO BAD, but he doesn't trust there is not a kick behind it.
But does Sandor like her songs, her polite words? I think he does. He hates himself that he does, perhaps, because that's a sign of the weak Sandor and not the powerful Hound.
Not to beat a dead horse (but of course, I AM), but her gentle words/songs/courtesies are to him what his ferocity is to her. She has her own wolfishness and she thrills to his power, even as the proper lady in her is rather horrified by it all. In the same way, I suspect he's rolling his eyes and HATING the hypocrisy of the courtly manners, but the knight in him is eating it up with a spoon.
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Post by katie on Dec 29, 2015 7:02:07 GMT
Yes! I agree with all this. I think Sandor can sniff out the difference between fake courtesies and genuine compassion. He initially thought that Sansa fell into the former category (and he wasn't wrong), but he learned soon enough -- like, that very same night! -- that she was sincere as well. It's not ALL empty courtesies. And after that first one-on-one, she never tried to placate him again. She let her courtesy armor down around him, and yet she was STILL gentle and kind. I think that is what he meant by "a proper little lady". It's what she was trained to be, but it's also the person she is inside too. He realizes there's no real malice in her when she tries to be courteous, unlike the people the Sandor is around on a daily basis, who smile in your face while scheming to stab you in the back. But with Sansa, she's just a NICE PERSON. And I think at a certain point it bothered him to see her have to use her natural kindness as a weapon just to survive in KL. As much as he tried to instill in her his own cynicism, I think it would have really upset him to see her turn as sour as he is. Because, as I have stated before, I think part of his motivation behind giving her such a hard time about her love of stories and songs was a CHALLENGE -- he wanted her to step up to him and convince him that it was REAL, because he wanted to believe again. "Prove me wrong", is the subtext behind all his teasing and mocking of her love for songs.
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 29, 2015 8:38:05 GMT
I agree with everything you've said. For me,it's obvious that he likes her despite all his mocking and teasing,he likes that courtesy he is supposed to despise. I noticed this quite early but took me longer to notice that for her it was the same because she wanted to pet the mean dog, and she did, several times.
The first time she thouched his shoulder, that was a brave thing to do considering who and what he was: mean, nasty, dangerous, a killer (a child killer to make it worse)an "enemy" for the Starks as he served the Lannisters,Joff's dog... What or who could be worse than him? At that point he seemed the worst possible escort although he proved to be the best. And she was damn brave to pet such a mean nasty-tempered guard dog. Why did she want to pet the mean dog, what would you pet a mean dog? Beacause she inspired tender feelings in her for some reason, she empathised with his pain and knew somehow that deep inside he was not ungentle. Sandor is good deep inside but he is also fierce,and she ends up missing his ferocity and his brutal honesty that she thought she hated. At some point she will realise she likes his ferocity,that sometimes this is a desirable quality,that he is a fighter and that fierce nature made a survivor of him,that same fierce nature that saved them from a raging mob.
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