maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 13, 2015 22:00:57 GMT
So as you all may have heard, there's an upcoming Sansa chapter in TWOW that is supposed to be "controversial" to some parts of the fandom but is apparently something that is predictable if you go back and look at the foreshadowing. I read an interesting thread on westeros.org about it - check it out here if you like. Some of the theories I've been seeing: - Sansa will kill LF
- Sansa will kill/participate in killing Sweetrobin
- Sansa will experience some kind of sexual awakening, possibly involving Sandor (maybe she will talk about him to Myranda Royce?)
I wouldn't mind (at all) if she killed LF, I think it'd be horrible if she killed Sweetrobin and I don't think G.R.R.M. would do that because it's so OOC, and I find the last one to be quite plausible and not just because of my shipper bias. Sansa has been thinking about Sandor all the time at the Vale and even had a sex dream about him lol - it wouldn't be surprising if she were to reveal her thoughts about him to Myranda, who says that she gets all the girls that have a slumber party with her to spill their dirty secrets  |
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 16, 2015 1:52:29 GMT
I don't want to get my hopes up, especially since I've spent that last year or so thinking that spoiler meant something really gross for Sansa at Littlefinger's hand (or finger <shudder>), but I think it could be quite controversial for those who are anti-shipping if Sansa does confirm her feelings for Sandor. What form will that take? Well, I could imagine the Myranda Royce slumber party would be EXTREMELY revealing, one way or another. And c'mon, he cannot give us that detail about the "pillow tax" and have Randy Randa yakking about killing her husband with sex and not have more come of it. Can he?
ETA: The whole Sansa/Sandor "romance," if we can call it that, is extremely subtle. I adore their storyline, but honestly, until I came to tumblr and started chatting with people like eyesofmist, I doubted if I was right about it being romantic. I am firmly convinced that it's there, that Martin has been laying the groundwork, but for people who are not reading Sansa's chapters as closely, such a relationship could come as a surprise, could be "controversial" since many do think the Hound was wanting to rape Sansa, and that his confession to Arya was regret over not raping her. I don't know. I could be hoping foolishly and blindly, but I do hope.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 16, 2015 4:10:58 GMT
I don't know either,it can be anything, but I wonder what would be more controversial for most readers because that may be the answer. It is true that many readers think SanSan is gross and they used to close threads on Westeros.org saying that they contained fanfiction because they speculated with the idea of Sansa and Sandor together. Many people think he is a horrible child-killer and that he definitely intended to rape Sansa.
I also went to Westeros.org,LJ and then tumlbr to see if I was the only crazy reader who thought there was some sort of romance between them because that was something I felt more than really found definite support for.
After sharing thoughts with others,I found out that I wasn't the only one who saw this and there were reasons to believe this,but I still have problems with Sandor and what he did the BoBW night, I wondered if he ever raped women during war campaigns or what other horrible things he did. If raping Sasa crossed his mind or not, etc.
So if the romance is made clear at last,it will definitely be controversial for many readers.
However,I fear it might be related to Robin and his potential death by poisoning,or something like this. I don't think she will have sex with Petyr,but who knows? Anything is possible with Martin. I still think Sandor will become her man,so I'm not sure and I am really wary thinking about this chapter. If it is only one, I don't think it is a relatioship with Petyr, it would take more than one chapter,it can't be a romance with Sandor in fool bloom for the same reason although there may be some hints at that. I fear for Robin and I would hate her to be involved in that.
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maidenpools
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hyped for a re-read!!
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 16, 2015 5:01:41 GMT
Yes I'm very worried about her potential involvement in the poisoning of Sweetrobin. I just read a post about this on tumblr the other day: So it's quite possible that might be it, and even if this isn't the "controversial" thing, it still might happen. Sansa won't have meant for it to happen, of course, as she thinks it's the only way to get Sweetrobin down the mountain. But if he ends up dying, I'm sure it will weight heavily on her conscience. She has tried very hard to care for him. One thing we know for sure is that George has been playing with Sansa's "repressed memory" issues and that will probably have implications for her her overall storyline as well as SanSan. It's that subtlety that makes me think something SanSan-related (probably what Sansa might say as part of Randa's "pillow tax") could be what generates controversy, given that as the people who originally made the comment about the chapter being controversial said, the controversial thing seemed surprising to them at first, but made sense when they went back through the books and found that it was subtly foreshadowed. IMO, only something SanSan-related could have been subtle foreshadowing. It's clear to everyone, after all, that Sweetrobin is being poisoned. |
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 16, 2015 11:35:51 GMT
I didn't know they said that it was something subly foreshadowed in previous books. That's really good information, maidenpools. Thanks for that.  On Westeros.org they have been treating Sandor and SanSan threads really badly for years. I had to suffer this treatment myself a couple of years ago,maybe three, not personally but as a visitor and contributor on one of those threads. They were so successful that they had started to overshadow their famous R&L threads. What they didn't want was people speculating there could be a romance between Sansa and Sandor because talking about them separately or if it was Sansa,speculating with other pairings for her was OK on Westeros.org. They used to say SanSan was fanfiction whereas the fans said it wasn't,that it was based on the text. They had this idea that Tumblr was rubbish and just a place for silly fangirls to squee and share fanfiction and pictures. It was worse with Linda,Elio's girlfriend and co-owner of the forums. The reason I won't buy the World of Ice and Fire is them, I can't stand Linda,not that I like Elio very much either. I mean,this has nothing to do with them as people but their behaviour was disrespectful,distasteful and downright wrong. Linda used to attack certain Tumblr and LJ users who supported SanSan and also the SanSan fans in general. You can ask Headtrip-Honey about this,for instance. She runs a Tumblr blog and a LJ community dedicated to Sandor.The problem was the tone of Linda's attacks. Calling them disgusting would be appropriate as she used nasty vocabulary and a level of aggressivity I don't consider even normal. Well, the target of her attacks were always women (as far as I know,though I am not sure of this)and she kept denying SanSan was based on the text. She insisted it was all made up and that it was fanfiction. The worst thing is not that she thought it was fanfiction but how she attacked the fans and how much she did to silence them. Ran didn't go as far as her or use nasty vocabulary that I know of but he let it happen. He let the moderators on Westeros close thread after thread and even prohibited Sandor-related threads for long periods of time,it must have been his choice too. As I said, what they wanted to stop was speculation that these two were some sort of "romantic" couple,that was what they didn't want. Therefore,if he said that the chapter could be controversial to some sectors of the fandom, it would make a lot of sense for it to be SanSan confirmation. For Linda it would be more than controversial,it would put her in a very bad position cause she was disrespectul and so wrong. What makes me doubt this is that these two people are close to Martin,and it's hard for me to believe they never asked him if there was some truth in SanSan,because they were putting themselves in ridicule by saying it was fanfiction and treating fans like that. George doesn't give away information about the plot but he has given some hints when asked and they are in good terms with him,so why didn't they know? Well,the fact is that they didn't know and rejected the idea. Many readers on Westeros.org and everywhere have the same opinion and are very opinionated and outspoken,so I can very well imagine all these people being really gobsmacked when they read something that is not so subtle about Sansa and Sandor's romance. Linda will be aghast,I'm sure and she won't be the only one. By the way,could you tell us where to read what they said exactly,about foreshadowing and so on,because due to that, I would say you are right and the controversial chapter must be SanSan related. Robin's poisoning has been hinted at in only one book,not several,and the only potentially "controversial" thing that permeates several books is SanSan. By the way, as of lately, several SanSan threads have appeared there again and have been tolerated,which seems another clue this is the right interpretation for Elio's words and the controversial chapter is SanSan related. |
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 16, 2015 14:12:15 GMT
I did not know all this! And I was thinking about buying A World of Ice and Fire...I have been in combative fandoms but that sounds terrible.  I'm so sorry you had to deal with all that. It makes me glad that I only joined the fandom on tumblr. Well, I looked back at the video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_68S55PkAtQ&feature=youtu.be&t=42m13s) I heard that comment in and they didn't say that it occurred over several books, but they did say "it surprised us a little bit, but maybe in retrospect it shouldn't have." So make of that what you will. I think it could be SanSan or something else, but probably not Sweetrobin getting poisoned because as we discussed, that is quite obvious and not surprising. |
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 16, 2015 15:33:52 GMT
Not to be repetitive, but I am so firmly convinced that Sansan is a real thing in the novels (AND I have hopes for a happy ending--throw tomatoes if you'd like! I still have hope!). However, I really, really doubted it, even though I FELT it was there, until I started rereading. Now, it's clear as glass. However, the Sansan could be a big surprise for those people who have theorized that Sansa will marry Harry, take back the North, marry Aegon and sit on the Iron Throne, meet Dany and become Hand to the Dragon Queen, become Queen Regent and marry a loyal Northman while Sandor is her noble, chaste sworn shield (PSHHHT! Ungelded stallion kicking in his stall is all I have to say to that).
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maidenpools
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hyped for a re-read!!
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 16, 2015 16:25:06 GMT
Yes, I felt the same as you. I sort of sensed it the first time around and because of that, I actually went back to re-read their scenes together several times even though I was only on my first read-through, because I was so fascinated by the huge amount of development both characters underwent (particularly Sandor, as he is a minor character) and how their arcs seemed to be linked - and how Sandor had major interactions with both Stark sisters. To me, it is nearly inevitable that Sandor and Sansa's arcs will intertwine once again. I think a happy ending is possible, but at the very least, they will see each other again and their feelings will be addressed. There'd be no reason to keep bringing them up even when the characters are separated otherwise. Another reason this seems an almost certain narrative inevitability is Sansa's place as the metatheatrical center of the series, as described in this excellent post: Sandor is an important part of the metatheater in which Sansa situates herself - he is key to her narrative. They will meet again. |
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 16, 2015 16:49:26 GMT
Well, I think it doesn't happen any more and you may post there without dealing with that repressive atmosphere they had there. I couln't believe at first because they talked about everything there,from rape to torture,they shipped Sansa with anyone but Sandor seemed taboo for them whereas there were many readers who supported the idea. As we are on Tumblr the atmosphere is friendly and we don't have to deal with hateres but you would't believe how many people hate Sansa and Cat over there in the fandom in general. I don't mind the readers telling me I am wrong,not even if they are bad-mannered,what I dislike is the moderators telling you you can't say this or that because George doesn't approve of fanfiction and all you do is speculate on things you have seen in the texts,you and may other readers. It's a pity because I loved the boards there and I enjoyed posting and reading there. I could have stayed but I hate it when they tell me what I can or can't speak about, especially when the only problem is that I believe SanSan is canon,it is in the text. It isn't spelled out loud but George himself said it was sublte and he was surprised how many readers pick up it was there. Here you can read a post by Alecia,a girl that used to post in those threads and it may give an idea what the problem was. It gave the impression that the forums had been a place mainly for fanboys but the series made the books more popular and many people read them,including a lot of women who also liked to visit the forums and post there. Women are interested in all sort of things and one of these things is the importance of romance in the series. Fanboys tend to say there isn't romance in this series and it is all about politics and aliances between powerful families,that love is an unrealistic cocept when associated to this series. This is a view as valid as any other but the real problem is that they didn't respect the view, as valid as theirs,that love does have an important role in ASoIaF,a series where a war started because prince Raegar had a forbidden love affair with Lyana Stark. At least,this was the reason for Robert Baratheon to start a war,though there were other reasons,like Aerys's cruelty and insanity. Well,they called our theories shipping when we said there were certain romantic pairings in the series. It was used to insult and I disagree because shipping is not what we did,we only appreciated something Martin put in his novels,like adventure,war,politics and many other things we also appreciated. Have a look at Alecia's post,becuse she explained it all better than I could and she had already been there long before I arrived, like Brashcandy,Starbird,Joanna Lannister and many other people around there who posted really good stuff. joannalannister.tumblr.com/post/18533672842/fangirls-westeros-org |
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 16, 2015 16:57:05 GMT
All of this makes me even more hopeful that the controversial chapter is related to Sansa and Sandor's relationship. If the people who run westeros. org have been that against Sansa and Sandor in the past, then I suppose it could be controversial! At least, it seems that Sansan had been controversial on the board before. I really have not spent much time on westeros.org, tbh. I have seen a lot of support for Tyrion/Sansa or Harry/Sansa though when I have perused the boards. People do seem very disturbed by the idea of Sandor and Sansa (which just makes me scratch my head, because what books are they reading? Honestly?).
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 16, 2015 17:01:32 GMT
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 16, 2015 17:23:52 GMT
I just read that post, and to be honest, it rather makes me gleeful. If things were that bad with people wishing rape on other characters and calling them whores, well, I don't think Petyr seducing Sansa would be controversial at all. It would seem the majority of participants on that board are eagerly anticipating it (I realize I am generalizing greatly based upon that post). Same thing with the death of Sweetrobin. Sansa might have something to do with his death, but I have a hunch, just a hunch backed up with no firm support, that Sweetrobin may be with us for a while. He reminds me of the sickly boy kings who lived and lived and lived, beyond all expectation (something like Octavian/Caesar Augustus, perhaps. And Sweetrobin does have the "shaking sickness" just like Julius Caesar).
Even people who like Sansa seem to be anticipating rape for her, but how much more controversial would it be for the perfect little lady to take control over her own desires, sleep with the man she wants to sleep with and not care one bit about being a "player." I said to you in a different message that Sansa is not playing the game of thrones, she's going to play the game of life, that Chess game with Death that we all lose, but we can delay the losing a while by loving and living.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 16, 2015 18:56:54 GMT
If you read any of Linda's post you would find them surreal to say the least,you wouldn't believe your eyes. I had never found such disgusting posts full of gross vocabulary in my life,I promise. So,I guess it's better for you to ignore them and never read one. I feel ashamed to see that another woman like us has so much hate in her against other women and experesses herself like a "lady of the night" in the filthiest tavern of Westeros. Notice that I have avoided her way of speaking, she would put all the sailors in Braavos to shame.
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maidenpools
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hyped for a re-read!!
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 16, 2015 19:26:23 GMT
I agree, sillierthings, that makes a lot of sense!
I hope Sweetrobin lives. It would make me terribly sad if he died, sad for both his short-lived, painful existence, and for Sansa.
I read the post you linked, eyesofmist, and that does clear up a lot. Seems like SanSan WOULD be quite controversial there, and goodness, after reading more about this Linda person, I'm glad I've never had to deal with her in fandom.
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Post by bgona on Feb 24, 2015 9:21:31 GMT
Maybe the controversial part is Sansa warging. There is so much people against it.
Sansa killing won´t be controversial, only a proof of how much LF has corrupted her.
Ah! There is this will theory that sweetsleep will cure SweetRobin (funny all the sweet that both are) as the treatment for seizures are also based at a certain type of "poisons".
I was at W.org that period of time. They closed the thread arguing that a person that was warned wrote fanfic. If that was true: you ban that person, and delete his/her posts. But you do not close the thread and prohibit to talk about SanSan.
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I'm so sorry you had to deal with all that. It makes me glad that I only joined the fandom on tumblr. 