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Post by katie on Mar 2, 2015 1:34:51 GMT
I posted this on Tumblr a little while back but it didn't get much traction, so I'll re-post it here, heehee...
So, one of the reasons I think Sansa will be key to "healing" Westeros is because she embodies all 4 of the natural elements:
EARTH = Her Stark heritage, and how they worship the old gods through deeply-rooted weirwood trees
FIRE = Females with red hair are described as being “kissed by fire” (she’s also got the “hots” for a man who was burned, heheh)
WATER = Her Tully heritage, and how they rule the Riverlands
AIR = Her nickname, “little bird” (and other assorted aviary imagery in her storyline)
Sansa is also closely associated with The Mother (as opposed to The Maiden, which most people assume), who may or may not be an interpretation of Mother Nature...?
Thoughts??
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Mar 2, 2015 15:17:36 GMT
While I might not think that Sansa is connected to all these things explicitly, there's an important truth to what you say. I think of all the Stark siblings, Sansa is the most flexible and open in her cultural beliefs. She believes strongly in both the Old Gods and the Faith of the Seven in a way that I don't think any of her other siblings do. She is interested in and sees the value in Southron ways even as she preserves her love of Winterfell in her heart. I think Sansa's acquired political savvy in combination with her deep empathy and ability to connect to and comfort others (think of her treatment of the women she comforted during the Battle of Blackwater and of Sweetrobin, for example) could lead to her being able to rebuild Winterfell and breathe life into the Northern lands desolated by war. She could serve the function of Mother after she has grown out of her role as Maiden - she could become a cultivator and steward of the land and its peoples, leading to its rebirth. This would also be in line with all the Persephone imagery surrounding Sansa.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 2, 2015 15:45:11 GMT
I loved this theory when you posted before, but I had not had time to think through the connections and was a little afraid I was being repetitive with some of my ideas. I think maidenpools brings up a good point in regards to the fact that Sansa is flexible in her beliefs, which supports the idea of her being a kind of all encompassing earth mother/Mother nature figure. At the moment, Sansa is a maiden, literally, but I'd say ever since the 2nd book, she has been associated with the Mother more and more. The Blackwater Battle was very significant for a number of reasons, but symbolically, it was during this battle that Cersei decided to play the Maiden, wearing white, abdicating her responsiblities, while Sansa rose up to be the Mother and bring comfort to the frightened lords, ladies and children in Maegor's Holdfast.
Then, you have Sandor waiting for her in her chambers. She sings the Mother's hymn and extends mercy to him, instinctively giving him the comfort he needs at that point. The fact that there is a symbolic bedding in their interactions only intensifies the idea that she becomes a "Mother" during this "bedding" with Sandor. Then, there are these Persephone images associated with Sansa--a fertility goddess, but she rejects Petyr's Hades, but she has already accepted Sandor who at this point is frequently associated with The Stranger--Westeros's on version of Hades.
In addition, if we see Sandor as being associated with the Green Man fertility figure (which I think he is), Mother Nature IS the Green Man's mate, the feminine version of the Green Man/Green Knight. It makes her pairing with Sandor even stronger, and makes their eventual union (I hope), truly significant as a representation of life returning to the land.
This is why I don't think Sansa needs politics or magic. She has a kind of magic already, a magic that has been building since the very first book--true love, divine marriage. It's a fairy tale trope for a reason. Think of Sleeping Beauty, the entire land frozen in slumber until true love's kiss awakens here. Or think of Rapunzel, locked away from love and life in her tower until her Prince finds her. They are separated by the evil witch and the Prince wanders blind and lost, Rapunzel trapped in the wasteland until he stumbles upon her and their children, and then there is restoration of sight and his kingdom. Snow White is dead until true love's kiss resurrects her. There are others, but this idea of true love bringing back life to the person and the land, this is fairy tale stuff! Love is a kind of magic, and Sansa wields that just as well as Bran wargs or Arya water dances.
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Post by katie on Mar 2, 2015 16:06:34 GMT
Thanks for your thoughts, ladies, good stuff!
Yes, isn't interesting how Sansa prays to The Mother specifically to "gentle the rage" inside Sandor and yet she takes on that very role herself later that evening?
The subject of her inter-faith upbringing is a great point and very interesting, and you're right, I think that will play a significant role later on. I love how, even though Sansa prefers the Seven because of all the pomp and ceremony, she finds sanctuary in the godswood. She clearly sees the value in both faiths; she has prayed to them both, and both, it seems, are listening.
It also brings up the point of the significance of Sandor currently being in the service of the Seven. And while I by no means think Sandor will be "born-again" like, say, Lancel, I feel like Sandor would be more predisposed to the old gods; the fact that they're rooted in nature, I think, would appeal to him more than the "flashiness" of the Seven. At any rate, though, like I said, I wonder what impact of having him being placed in the service of a Seven elder will have in the future....
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Mar 2, 2015 16:19:39 GMT
Yes, I'm interested to see where Sandor's involvement with the Faith will take him as well. I think it will have a lasting effect on him in a different way than it has on Lancel, as you say.
The thing about Sansa's political savvy is that it is linked to her natural empathetic abilities. As the scales have fallen from her eyes, both through experience and with Sandor's help, she's been able to connect that empathy with her instinct once again (even in the absence of Lady), and her intuition leads her to correctly assess the nature of others, more often than not, as she has developed. This is why I think that thus far, when Sansa has distrusted someone or shown someone mercy, she has normally been right. I think her romance with Sandor will also have an important place in the plot, but her love for him is just a part of her larger empathetic, intuitive, instinctual capacity which I personally think has a role to play in both the political and magical portions of the plot. Otherwise, her development might be rather static - I'd like to see her play an important role in multiple narrative settings and given how important she's been so far, I don't see how it could be otherwise (unless, god forbid, GRRM kills her off prematurely - which I don't think will happen). We'll see.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 2, 2015 16:19:59 GMT
It cannot be just coincidence that Sandor ends up in service of the Seven when we know he is in love with one of the most religious p.o.v. characters in the whole series. Sansa prays to the Seven to gentle Sandor, and where does he end up? Almost literally in the arms of the Seven, healed by the Elder Brother, confessing to Meribald--who loves the Smith, the builder, the creator. Sandor has been the Warrior. He has been the Stranger. He is now lame and he has "died." He's not really fit for either of those roles anymore.
Now shall he be the Father or the Smith? He could be both, since Meribald tells us they are all different faces of the same god. Between them, Sansa and Sandor have been associated pretty explicitly with most of the aspects of the seven. Sansa has been Maiden and Mother. Sandor has been Warrior, Stranger, Father--to Arya and Joffrey. You could even argue that he has been the Smith since Meribald tells us the Smith is the builder and doesn't always have to be associated with the forge (doesn't he call the Smith, the Cobbler?). The only one not accounted for is The Crone, and that by necessity would have to come later in the Sansa's story.
So, what is the purpose of this? Why would Martin associate them with the different aspects of the gods? Religion plays a very important role in Sansa's narrative, but to what purpose?
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Mar 2, 2015 16:47:20 GMT
I really don't know as of yet. Your idea of the divine marriage (I loved your meta on that!) could be one reason, as well as a general way that GRRM might want to show how the seven aspects of the one god might be embodied in two people. For someone who is agnostic/atheist (in his own words), GRRM writes sensitively about characters with religious inclinations, something I deeply appreciate. I'm curious how their faiths, particularly Sansa's beliefs, will be proved, perhaps to some degree, correct. Something I thought I'd share - some nice meta on Sansa's belief in both faiths, which I read here: |
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Post by katie on Mar 2, 2015 18:19:28 GMT
I can see both Sansa and Sandor incorporating aspects of The Crone, as they are both becoming "wiser" in their respective situations, and the things they are learning they can impart to each other as well. And they can also share aspects of The Smith by helping to rebuild Winterfell/the North/Westeros in general. ;-)
The thing that fascinates me about the religions in ASOIAF is that none of them seem to be "wrong" necessarily. Everyone thinks that their religion is the "true" one, and yet we have seen numerous examples of all the religions seemingly "working". Is GRRM trying to say that ALL the religions and their respective gods are real? Or is he suggesting that *intent* is the real culprit behind these alleged "miracles"?
When I was little (I was raised Catholic; I'm not religious now, but I am into metaphysics, so if I had to choose an ASOIAF religion, I'd probably go with the old gods, LOL), I used to believe that EVERY religion was legitimate; basically, whatever your chosen religion said would happen to you when you died, that is exactly what WOULD happen. So, if you were Christian, you would be with Jesus; if you were an atheist, you would just, like, dissolve into nothingness, etc. I still kind of believe that, to be honest, LOL, and that's what I mean above about GRRM perhaps trying to illustrate that all the gods are legitimate and it's all just a matter of choice and intention. It's fascinating to me, and I can't wait to see how it plays out in the next books...
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Mar 2, 2015 19:30:28 GMT
That's an interesting perspective. I am a practicing Catholic but I've always looked at religion as just an instrument to express spirituality - that there are many ways to go about it, many of which are probably valid to some extent if there is indeed a higher power. There are things I agree with in my religion, and things I disagree with (I disagree with the church's stance on many issues), but it's ultimately just one form of spiritual expression and I don't consider it the only valid one.
Whatever truth there is to the various faiths in the series is probably something in between all of them. I'm very interested to see what happens.
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