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Post by katie on Mar 4, 2015 5:33:05 GMT
(NOTE: The subject of this thread is meant to be sung to the tune of Paula Cole's "Where Have All The Cowboys Gone"...)
So, I’ve been wondering…. where are all the other Cleganes??
There’s Sandor and Gregor, and we know of their parents, a sister, and a grandfather who are all dead… and that’s it. The ASOIAF Wiki has House Clegane listed as "extinct". Really?? There are no aunts, uncles, cousins, etc., walking around? Sandor and Gregor were really only ones left??
We know Gregor was married a couple times, but he doesn’t seem to have any children (not counting the many rape-babies I’m sure he’s responsible for). And since both Sandor and Gregor spent virtually no known time at Clegane Keep through the course of ASOIAF, who WAS there while they were gone, and what happened to them??
Anyway, my point being, in a story with piles upon piles of immediate and extended family members, even for minor* houses, it seems weird that House Clegane was so sparsely populated... unless Gregor killed them all.
(*minor as in featuring characters not as important to the story)
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Mar 4, 2015 5:38:00 GMT
I think it's because Sandor's house was so new - it was his grandfather who founded it. Only the eldest son inherits the title and lands (relatives get nothing), so Sandor's father inherited that, making Sandor's immediate family the only Cleganes in existence.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 4, 2015 6:06:43 GMT
Going by what maidenpools said, since common people generally do not have last names, perhaps only Grandfather Clegane, his son, Gregor, Sandor and their sister WERE the only Cleganes. If Grandpa Clegane chose his own name and only had the one son, maybe there really are no others.
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Post by katie on Mar 4, 2015 16:06:13 GMT
Okay, that makes sense. Just seems odd to me that that family would be so small!
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Mar 4, 2015 17:30:44 GMT
I know, right? I'm uncertain as to whether Sandor's family had a last name before (because smallfolk usually don't have family names - Davos, for example, chose "Seaworth" as his family name himself) or if his grandfather simply chose "Clegane," but in any case, the only members of house Clegane proper would be those directly descended from grandaddy Clegane. Sometimes, once a family branches out enough, you can get deputy houses like the Karstarks, which branched off from the Starks. But because we only have one line of descent so far because Sandor's dad probably didn't have a brother, the house will live and die with Sandor and Gregor unless they have children, as they're the only ones left.
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Post by katie on Mar 4, 2015 17:46:37 GMT
I wonder, though, if Sandor does have a child, if he would even WANT to restore House Clegane...
I know both sillierthings and I believe that he and Sansa will conceive, and supposing that, and supposing they are both together when the child is born, I feel like he'd prefer the kid to be raised a Stark as opposed to a Clegane... I'm probably getting way ahead of myself though, heehee. Suffice it to say, even though I think Sandor took pride in his house at some point in his life, I don't know if he'd care to maintain it after the bad reputation it gained. What do y'all think?
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 4, 2015 18:06:27 GMT
I see the logic in raising the future Sansan baby (Aww! I love speculating about that) as a Stark, but he DOES seem proud of his house and his name. Is being born Clegane a crime? There's part of me that wants him to have his Clegane baby since he doesn't seem to associate the name with the horror of Gregor necessarily.
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Post by katie on Mar 4, 2015 18:10:55 GMT
Fair point, I have future-headcanoned him wanting to make a sincere go of restoring House Clegane to one of respectability. I guess it just depends on where everyone ends up by the end of the series. There's no guarantee that Sansa will even ever be Sansa again, so raising a baby as a Stark might be out of the question anyway. Hmmm...
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Mar 4, 2015 18:12:40 GMT
If we got a SanSan baby like we all want, then I think she or he would be "of the Houses Stark and Clegane." I'm not sure which family name the kid would inherit, given that even though Sansa is female, she is of higher social status than Sandor. Perhaps House Clegane could become a deputy branch of House Stark, like House Karstark did? I'm not sure how that would work. In any case, I agree, the Cleganes seemed like upstanding people with the exception of Gregor. It would give Sandor a chance to bring honor to his house after it had been tainted by Gregor and his own stint as the Hound.
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Post by katie on Mar 4, 2015 18:34:15 GMT
I like that idea. That's basically what happened when Joffrey became king, didn't it? His standard bore both the Baratheon stag and the Lannister lion. So yeah, SanSan Baby could have the wolves and the dogs frolicking together. ;-)
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 4, 2015 20:27:05 GMT
Ha,ha, this made me laugh, it sounds funny and also nice. Why not? I also believe Sansa and Sandor will conceive and have at least one child, that there are clues in the text hinting in that direction. I also agree that Sandor is quite proud of his House and Gregor is a disgrace for the family but should not wipe out everything his ancestors did the right way. After all, the grandfather gained the title by doing a heroic deed. What I don't know is if it will be possible for Sandor to restore his good name and that of his house after what Gregor did and what Rorge did at Saltpans wearing his helm.
There are several reason which can explain why Sandor and Gregor are alone in the world but George could have made other choices so I think there are only the two of them for a purpose. A hypothetical confrontation between them sounds very much like a classical Western and it seems more epic if there aren't any other family members,as if they were two lonely titans in a wasted land or something. They may never meet again, and I don't think Sandor wants to kill his brother any more because there are mor important things in his life now,his life is not managed by hate now, but by love. His life purspose is not to kill Gregor any longer. Despite this,he may have to kill him one day,perhaps to save his own life from him,to protect someone or even to put an end to Gregor's unnatural existence, as if in an act or mercy. They remind me so much of Cain and Abel, although the victim survived in their case.
I guess their story is even more dramatic and tragic because they are the only Cleagens in the whole world and there is not room for both of them in the future that is to come.
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Post by katie on Mar 4, 2015 21:13:05 GMT
I was arguing with a college buddy of mine on Facebook the other day about "Cleganebowl" (ugh), and my whole argument was that Sandor has more nobler causes now than to try to fight (and I say "try" because Sandor is severely injured, perhaps permanently) what is really just a shell of his brother's former self anyway. He countered by saying that defeating this monster killing machine WOULD be "noble", but I said that Gregor is just not Sandor's problem anymore. And while I don't rule out Sandor having SOMETHING to do with UnGregor's downfall, I certainly don't see some knock-down, drag-out climactic battle between them as being realistic at all. A mercy killing is far more likely and would fit much better with Sandor's character arc.
And you're right, eyesofmist, I always did get the impression that Sandor felt a sense of pride as he was telling Sansa about the founding of his house. I was also listening to the House Clegane featurette narrated by Rory McCann recently where he makes a point of saying that most Houses can afford to fudge the truth about their founding because they go back so far that no one can argue with them about it, but at least the Cleganes are still "new" enough that their founding can't be debated. We all know how Sandor feels about honesty and owning up to who/what you are, so this fits. And I think if he DID make a go of trying to restore his house, he wouldn't try to hide their unsavory past. SanSan Baby would know the truth behind his/her father's name.
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 4, 2015 21:32:18 GMT
This sounds fair to me and it makes sense, Katie, Sandor would restore his House but without lies,he would be honest about it. As for killing Gregor, people who think Sandor will do that for a mere act of revenge or justice, if they want to call it that, are misunderstanding his character and also George's point in this two brother's story. If Sandor really wanted to kill Gregor he didn't try very hard, did he? Perhaps he needed to believe that he would kill him one day but he didn't really want to reach that day. This is very clear during the Hound's tourney becuase there he had an excuse for aiming at his head and finishing their feud once and for all, or he could have stay put and let Gregor kill Lorass. This would have been an even better choice because the Tyrells would have asked for Gregor's head and Robert would probably have him executed. Sandor would have inherited Clegane Keep then.
I may be wrong but I think that Sandor may still love his brother to some extent and perhaps in a final act of mercy and also love he could end his miserable "life", if his existence may be called life. I think Sandor's got over his hate for Gregor now,if he kills him it won't be for something like revenge.
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Post by katie on Mar 4, 2015 21:56:17 GMT
Agreed! Someone on Tumblr sent me an ask about that recently, about whether or not I think Sandor really wants to kill his brother. My response is here, but the tl;dr version is, no, I don't think he did. Hated him with a motherfucking passion, yes, but he hated him because he felt so BETRAYED by him. At the end of the day, he was still his BROTHER, and I think that meant more to Sandor than anything else. So for him to be in a place like the Quiet Isle and come out of it seeking revenge makes no sense because he was never really seeking it in the first place!! And yes, I maintain that the only reason Sandor fought Gregor at the Tourney was to show off for Sansa, hahahahaha.
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Mar 4, 2015 22:22:36 GMT
Getting off topic, but I just have to say that that scene always fascinated me. Ned notes how Sandor could've tried to strike Gregor's head but he never did. I'm sure that's a scene we'll revisit. That peculiar sort of honor Sandor possesses will go a long way towards clearing his name and the name of his house (to get back on topic!).
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