|
Post by eyesofmist on Mar 4, 2015 10:42:59 GMT
There have been somo posts on tumblr commenting the Sept scene where Jaime and Cersei have sex on the altar while their child's body is still there. This is a scene that I find really disturbing, not so much because they break all the rules of gods and men, so to speak, but also because he doesn't show any grief for his dead son. Jaime's lack of concern towards his own children feels so unnatural to me. I can forgive many of the things he did, I can ever understand why he pushed Bran with the clear intention of killing (the fact that he survived doesn't diminish the horror of what he really intended),but I can only dislike and feel really disgusted by his attitutde towards his own children. I also dislike that he doesn't want to hepl Cersei when she is in mortal danger just because he knows she has been sleeping around and now thinks she didn't love him enough. Well, this is a reason to end their relationship as lovers but there is much more,they are still siblings and they are parents to their common children,so even only for loyalty, he should have felt obligued to help her. Some readers miss this point because she is evil, they think she deserves it, but this is not why Jaime chooses not to try and defend her because he knew she was evil before. He was a KG and knew what she did, how cruel she was. He only abandoned her out of spite,as he is such an egocentrical person that everything seems to be about him in his view. Now he wants the right thing but not for the Stark girls' sake but for himself, for his honour and glory. He is even worried about posterity,which doesn't mean he cares about the people involved. He is a complicated character,and I do like him to some extent. I love reading all the chapters where he appears and his interactions with Brienne and Tyrion but despite being so charming, so funny, witty and interesting, he is deeply flawed as a human being, especially by that lack of empathy with others, including his dead son. Joff was a piece os shit, but he was his son,and I think grief should have come natural to him. Even Sansa felt sorry for Joff in spite of what he did to her and her family. Sansa has it in her her to feel sorry for this little monster but his own father doesn't show any feelings for his dead son. Jaime is flawed, yes,but I never thought he raped Cersei.I never felt it like that when I read it. In the show most people say there was lack of consent from her and the scene was critisized by many,but I think the one in the books was not like that, that it wasn't written with the intention that the readers thought he was raping her. I may be mistaken though, because she doesn't clearly show consent with words,so I may have misinterpreted her body language. What I think is that Geroge's intention wasn't for the readers to see that scene as rape. For some readers this is enough and it usually is for me to read a scene one way or another,the writer's intention is what matters to me,but others think otherwise and they may have a point. What is you opinion about all this? Link to the posts on Tumblr
|
|
|
Post by sillierthings on Mar 4, 2015 15:39:16 GMT
For whatever my opinion is worth, I did not read that scene as a rape or a non-consensual act. It was rape in the show version, and it was shocking because Cersei never once in the books thinks back on her sexual relationship with Jaime as being shameful or hurtful. She does with Robert. Cersei and Jaime's passion for each other is inappropriate on on all levels, and having them have sex, on an altar, while Cersei is menstruating, next to the body of their dead son conceived in incest, that hits all the taboos--which is the point. It's so wrong, but not because it's non-consensual.
I saw someone else reply to this on tumblr (I'm sorry I don't remember who), and they pointed out that Cersei has been raped by Robert. She has been sexually abused and it's likely that she would have reacted differently if she felt that she were being forced into something she did not want to do by Jaime. At the very least, if this were meant to be non-consensual, I would have hoped Cersei would have reflected upon this in one of her chapters. She never does. She thinks about Robert's assaults, but her sexual memories of Jaime are loving and pleasant. He's the only one she has ever had any pleasure with.
That being said, this is from Jaime's viewpoint, so maybe we cannot know for sure. Cersei does say no to having sex in the sept, afraid someone will see, but then she seems to get into it, urging him on. For people who read the scene as non-consensual, even if GRRM did not intend it that way, I suppose that depends upon their life experiences. I cannot speak for everyone, but I would suspect there comes a time in most relationships when you don't feel like having sex or you think the time is inappropriate, but your partner really, really, really wants to. So you do it because you love your partner, and it's okay to give in sometimes if it seems like they need that closeness and affection, even if you initially weren't that into it. I'm not talking about being forced into something you absolutely don't want to do, but more like, I desire this person, but having sex in this place probably isn't a great idea because we could get caught. There is a difference. I don't get the impression that Cersei was being forced here--though I will emphasize that this is just my opinion. Jaime insisting on sex with Cersei at this point has very little to do with sexual desire, I believe. He wants to reassure himself of her love and of their connection.
The point is, I don't think Cersei was saying no because she did not want to have sex with Jaime. She missed him. She was afraid he was dead, so her refusal had very little to do with how much she wanted him. She was saying no because it was inappropriate to do so next to Joff's body, in the sept, where anyone could see. However, this is Cersei and Jaime. Taboos mean very little to them, and ultimately you see that for all of Cersei's love for Joff (and I think she did love him very much), her love of Jaime (and in a narcissistic way, herself) is more important than any other relationship or social or divine law. This is true for Jaime as well. I agree that Jaime's callousness in regards to his children shocks me, and it's the one character trait that keeps me from really liking Jaime as a character. If he really loved Cersei as much as he says, how could he feel so cold in regards to their son?
|
|
|
Post by katie on Mar 4, 2015 16:01:16 GMT
One of the posters in that Tumblr convo made a really interesting point -- as someone who also believes that Jaime as the valonqar, this scene illustrated how dangerous Jaime truly is for Cersei, but she doesn't realize it because she has this deeply unhealthy, idealized view of their relationship. Now, the sept sex scene didn't seem rape-y to me either, but it could be that Cersei relented for both the reasons sillierthings mentions above and because she can't bring herself to believe that her "beloved" Jaime would ever hurt her, not in the same way as Robert. Jaime was her salvation from Robert. If she allows herself to believe that Jaime could be ANYTHING like her loathsome husband, that would shatter her entire world.
As for Jaime's view on his children, he mentions several times in his POVs how Cersei denied him that chance to be a "real" father to them, so he was unable (perhaps willfully) to form any real feelings toward them. At one point he even refers to Joff as (and I'm paraphrasing) nothing more than a squirt in Cersei's belly. Geez! It might *seem* like having fatherly feeling should come natural to him, but the father-child bond is way different from the mother-child bond. The former, it seems to me, can be more easily compromised. I don't think Cersei understands that, though; I think she feels much like eyesofmist that Jaime should just naturally be invested in their children, even though he hasn't had any actual relationship with them.
That said, I do like Jaime, and I do think he's trying to be better, however misguided those attempts are. I don't think he's on the same sort of redemption arc as, say, Sandor, because Jaime is actively seeking it. It's not quite the same as Sandor's struggle because Sandor is a victim of trauma whereas Jaime.... is not really a victim of anything except maybe his own Lannister pride. I dunno. Suffice it to say, I believe Jaime will have a tragic end.
|
|
|
Post by katie on Mar 4, 2015 16:04:40 GMT
Also, I think GRRM has a very disconcerting way of blurring the lines between consensual and non-consensual sex in his books. The very first instance of this comes in the Dany-Drogo wedding night scene. In the show, she was CLEARLY not having it. But in the book, she actually says YES and is actually the one to instigate the first sexual act!!! That threw me for a loop. Now, many claim that she only did this because she had no other choice and she was just trying to make it easier on herself, and it's a fair point. But GRRM seemed to go out of his way to make that scene highly questionable, and we all know what a pandora's box that conversation can be.... Bad GRRM! ;-P
|
|
maidenpools
Junior Member
hyped for a re-read!!
Posts: 50
|
Post by maidenpools on Mar 4, 2015 16:40:49 GMT
That's a really great piece of meta you've linked to, eyesofmist, and there were some really intriguing responses to it in the thread on tumblr. We know that GRRM did not *intend* for it to be rape - as he says, “In the novels … Though the time and place is wildly inappropriate and Cersei is fearful of discovery, she is as hungry for him as he is for her.” I think what really gives me pause in the book scene, which is from Jaime's perspective, is if Cersei had put up more than a momentary protest, would he have stopped? Lines like "he never heard her" protests make me wonder. I believe he would have stopped because he himself is so against rape (and perhaps pointing out his aggressive, predatory behavior in this scene would have made him realize to what extent his relationship with Cersei was unhealthy because he was hurting her by disrespecting her bodily integrity), but this is, of course, debatable. I think this scene, in the books, demonstrates the fundamental perversion of Jaime and Cersei's relationship - a lack of boundaries. Like sillierthings points out, Jaime and Cersei break every taboo in the book and this is indicative of the dark heart of their relationship - they have a possessiveness toward each other that is the kind of possessiveness the physical human self has towards its own ego. They believe they literally belong to each other, because they see each other as one person. It's only after they reunite after a long separation that leads to them fleshing out their own identities and self-understanding that they come to realize how wrong they were about each other - how they are not, in fact, one person in two bodies. In this scene, Jaime actually asks Cersei to forsake the throne and marry him, taking Tommen and Myrcella as their children. But she will have none of it, and is only interested in the game of thrones. Their sex on an altar is a way for Jaime to physically reclaim her as part of himself, because he sees now how different they are in their desires. Jaime's never been interested in power, as Tyrion has pointed out - only "battle." He doesn't care to inherit Casterly Rock, even, unless it's done through a marriage with Cersei. Cersei, however, "lusts" for power and puts that above her relationship with Jaime. They are both selfish in their desires, as such a marriage would deprive Cersei of the influence and autonomy she wants, and not marrying deprives Jaime of the open, unbridled love he desires from Cersei. As for Jaime not caring for his kids, he definitely doesn't care for Joffrey and considers him a monster. He's never even been allowed to hold his children because Cersei forbid it, lest they get caught. He does care for Tommen and Myrcella, however, though he doesn't know them well. He thinks about Tommen a lot in AFFC (not so much Myrcella because she's in Dorne) and about how he wants to protect him and help him rule as a member of his Kingsguard. I think he recognizes that he should try to be a father to his children now, but I'm not sure if he knows how. Time will tell. In any case, I too think Jaime is the valonqar, and in keeping with that prophecy, it's likely that all his efforts will be for naught and his children will die anyway. And the dark, messed-up nature of his relationship with Cersei will probably lead them both to their doom. It's not something I'm looking forward to, as Jaime is one of my favorites and I think Cersei has suffered enough and that Tommen and Myrcella deserve to live, but I think it's unlikely any of them will survive.
|
|
|
Post by sillierthings on Mar 4, 2015 17:13:11 GMT
Katie and Maidenpools, I think you brought up a really good point, and one I wasn't thinking about. Cersei and Jaime do see each other as extensions of themselves, and Cersei definitely does not see Jaime as capable of hurting her, but in a scene like this, we don't know what Jaime is capable of. She rises to meet him, but what if she had said no, absolutely not. You all bring up a good point that this could point to Jaime as valonqar (which I think is likely).
And Katie, as you say, there are definitely gray areas in the notion of consent in these sexual relationships, so while I don't personally think it is a rape scene, I could see the argument that lines are being blurred with consent, but that's the very essence of Jaime and Cersei's relationship. As you both have said, there are no boundaries between them. And, oh, how there should be!
Despite the fact that it may be uncomfortable to read about and deal with these sexual scenes that depending on how you look at them could seem non-consensual, I think GRRM creates situations that feel emotionally authentic. You have this sept scene, the Dany/Drogo situation, the Blackwater scene with Sansa and Sandor. Qarl "attacks" Asha, cutting her clothes off with a knife while she fights, but then you see she DID want to be with him, though it's never clearly said that this is some kind of game between them. Do you think he has a narrative or thematic purpose in keeping these lines of consent blurry? (And I'm trying so hard not to quote Robin Thicke here)
How about Sam and Gilly? Sam desires Gilly, but he does not want to break his vows. He's basically threatened with death (they are going to toss him overboard) if he doesn't go to Gilly and "comfort" her. Gilly is the aggressor with Sam and he feels terribly ambivalent about it. Is this a rape scene as well? I'm inclined to say no, because Sam and Gilly do care for each other and he enjoys being with her. Personally, I think they have one of the sweetest relationships in the entire series. However, he is clearly coerced into doing something he doesn't feel is right.
|
|
maidenpools
Junior Member
hyped for a re-read!!
Posts: 50
|
Post by maidenpools on Mar 4, 2015 17:46:12 GMT
I think that GRRM is often pointing out troubling tendencies of the human psyche towards aggression under exigent circumstances - the effects of corrosive social mores and cycles of abuse. We can't excuse these characters' behavior, but we can EXPLAIN it. They act as they do for a variety of reasons - deeply-embedded cultural practices (Asha and Drogo), unhealthy relationships formed amidst the cycles of abuse in the Lannister family mostly by Tywin (Jaime/Cersei), a deep connection forged between abuse survivors (SanSan) - all of these relationships are shaped the way they are because of certain fundamental truths about the world in which they exist. GRRM once said that he thought sex as a natural behavior was something that was not explored as thoroughly as it should be in literature and that he wanted to try to do that with these books. I think he's largely succeeded at that - many of these scenes serve a purpose in telling us something important about these characters and the world they live in, especially in a setting in which consent is not always clearly defined as it is by modern standards.
For example, I don't consider the Jaime/Cersei scene a rape scene because Cersei does not and GRRM himself said she wanted Jaime. What's more concerning, like I said, is whether Jaime would have stopped if Cersei had definitively told him no (unlike in the show, she only protested to begin with because of the location and the fact that Joffrey had just died). I think that's left ambiguous for the reasons I described above (though I don't think he would have done it because of his hatred for rape and what Aerys did) - that the two of them see themselves as physically belonging to each other, being of one flesh. They believe that of course they'd always want each other - they are two people in one body, after all.
With Dany and Khal Drogo, it is definitely statutory rape by modern day standards, but is not considered as such by the participants in the story - although Dany never forgets what it felt like to be sold into marriage.
And then with SanSan, it's more about metaphor than anything else, with sexual desires merely alluded to through the character's actions (with the exception of Sandor's dialogue during the Serpentine steps scene).
Re: Sam and Gilly - I am unsure. They were both pressured in that scenario, so I'm uncertain as to how to classify their interaction.
|
|
|
Post by katie on Mar 4, 2015 18:07:31 GMT
Good stuff, and you're right, and think GRRM is deliberately challenging us and forcing us to have these conversations. But at the same time, as you say, it's tempting to look at these situations through the lens of our own reality, but ASOIAF lives in a completely different reality with a completely different set of social structures, where females are considered "grown" once they get their period and guys are "men" once they reach 15 or 16. I know that a lot of people don't want Sansa to be with Sandor until she's older, but the fact of the matter is, she IS old enough, within the context of the story, to be with him right now. The REAL issue is that she shouldn't be with him until both she and he have worked out their issues. The physical part is actually irrelevant in this setting. I know that makes a lot of people uncomfortable, but... I feel like there are other way more objectionable things happening in this series, LOL.
(Sorry, didn't mean to turn the convo back around to SanSan; force of habit!)
At any rate, yes, I think Jaime WOULD have stopped if Cersei had insisted, but I think they were both sort of "surfing the same wave" at that point. They are indeed their own people, but they are still twins and still profoundly bonded, and I don't think he would have even instigated it if he didn't think she wanted it too.
|
|
|
Post by eyesofmist on Mar 4, 2015 21:13:47 GMT
Katie, it makes sense to think of Sansan in this conversation because it is true that the line between consensual and non-consensual relatioships is really blurred in Martin's novels, SanSan is one of several examples of this. That scene during the BoBW night explores that issue again because nothing sexual is going on there on the surface but it is on a subliminal level, as I explained in this meta. On the surface it seems he wants a kiss, or so she thinks, but doesn't force it on her as he thinks she doesn't want it,but later he pushes her onto her bed and makes her sing at knife point. I don't think the knife was ever necessary,that she would have sung for him if he had asked her to,that it is just a symbol connecting with those seen in other scenes and also in Dunk and Egg novellas. Either way,he used violence in this scene while in the subliminal one that appears hidden behind it,consent seems clearer. Perhaps Martin is going into an issue that feels different now than in the past. In the past women were said to have marital duties and were obligued to comply with them, so if they were coerced but not physically forced to have sex with their husbands or lovers they didn't even realise that could be seen as rapey. Of course what Robert did to Cersei was marital rape but perhaps neither Jaime nor Cersei saw coercion in how he pressed her into having sex in the sept. Perhaps he is showing us that perhaps behaviours and crimes should be considered and judged to some extect according to the norms and rules of the world where they take place.
|
|
|
Post by NorbetGinar on Jan 28, 2022 23:29:13 GMT
<a href=https://proxyspace.seo-hunter.com/mobile-proxies/krasnoarmeysk-s/>proxy for cheating PF</a>
|
|
|
Post by NorbetGinar on Jan 28, 2022 23:30:55 GMT
<a href=https://proxyspace.seo-hunter.com/mobile-proxies/krasnoarmeysk-s/>proxy for cheating PF</a>
|
|
|
Post by NorbetGinar on Jan 28, 2022 23:32:16 GMT
<a href=https://proxyspace.seo-hunter.com/mobile-proxies/krasnoarmeysk-s/>proxy for cheating PF</a>
|
|