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Post by sillierthings on Mar 14, 2015 3:34:25 GMT
The Three Faces of Eve is a good example of how I think about Sandor, and I love the cartoon eyesofmist shared. It's a great representation of Sandor's struggle. Like Katie said, I think we do all agree with each other . There is nothing in any of these posts that I disagree with. I would hate it if Sandor lost all of his Hound qualities, and so would Sansa. He is the Hound, but the persona or mask that represents the Hound has been stolen and corrupted by Rorge and Lem. Whereas 'The Hound" used to be just another side of Sandor Clegane (not a dark side or anything, just the face he chose to show to the world), the helmet has become a symbol signifying the very worst of mankind's impulses--the id, as Katie pointed out. The Hound is Sandor Clegane, but the Hound's mask is now being used for these other men to hide behind so they can live out their most brutal impulses. I think it speaks to the strength and nobility of Sandor's character that when he was hiding behind the Hound's mask, he still was someone with so much honor people like Thoros, Jaime, even Ned himself, comment upon it.
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 14, 2015 11:51:32 GMT
I know that neither of you think Sandor has split personality,LOL, I understand your idea of the Hound and I think it's very similar to the idea shown in the cartoon,which is great,by the way,I love the final concusion the old man offers the kid.
What may be a bit different,albeit very slightly, is that, for me,because of my way of viewing character in general,the lines that separate the Hound's and Sandor' s personas, so to speak are very blurry,very unstable, so to speak. The line that separates what is good and what is bad isn't always all that clear for anybody and it isn't for Sandor either. I agree that he used that helm as a sort of mask,like Sansa uses her courtesy. Perhaps the helm represents what everybody does in everyday life. We show a face to the world so that we are accepted but there are other things which are already a part of us and we keep them for ourselves or for our close friends and family. There are even remote corners where we hide what we don't want to share with anybody,our insecurities and darker aspects. In this aspect I agree that he Hound is the image Sandor presents to the world,but not to Sansa,Sansa can see much more of him,aspects of him nobody else has ever seen. He takes off the mask in front of her and wants her to look at him and see him, all of him,the real man.
What I see different form some readers is that I don't think Sandor is his good side and The Hound his "evil" side, because he did many good things as the Hound and some were good. Marin even shows the helm used in good ways, as a tool to offer mercy,help and healing,as if showing that any person,including Sandor-Hound is capable of doing good and bad things if given he chance. As you said,Sandor wasn't a bad man when he wore the helm although he committed many "sins",like most characters in this books and probably most people in a violent "Medieval" world. On the other hand,Rorge and Lem hid behind the mask and did horrible things perhaps trying to hide behind another man's identity to get away with their crimes without punishment.
I wonder why Sandor gets so much punishment, I know this is derailing but I think it's a very interesting question. Many characters get punished in this story,for example all the Lannisters,but don't you think Sandor has been punished too harshly for his sins and crimes? As if this was a way to make him more deserving of a possible "happy ending" that may be waiting for him in the end? I know life and love are not about deserving or not deserving,but don't you think Sandor deserves some happiness after suffering so much pain for most of his life? I think George has this opinion and he will get his happy ending but he will pay dearly for his crimes on the way. His life has been like Catholic Purgatory,all of it,even the QI is some sort of intermediate stage where he is waiting and he will live,like Ygritte said before his time is over. Heaven can wait,let Sansa have him for a while.
Coming back to the Hound,I agree people use the helm as a mask but I don't think it makes them commit evil deeds. A Hound is not a demon or a monster,and as Ned said talking about the direwolves,you have to treat a dog or a direwolf right and never mistreat him/her because the animal could tear you arm off if you did. A dog may be snarling,the helm represents a snarling hound, but dogs are hardly ever evil just like Sandor Clegane isn't evil.
What will happen to that helm is another interesting question because,as you have said,it seems to have a live of its own or rather it is being used as an excuse to do different things,many of them bad, depending on who wears it. I think it will play an important role in the story,may be to cover indentities ,to confuse identities,something like that. This may affect Brienne, Lem, and who knows how many more people.
Kate says Sandor has to get rid of the Hound persona to have a chance at a decent life. To some extent it's true because now it's associated to Saltpans and horrible crimes,but bear in mind that it wasn't so when Sandor wore it. He was seen as an enemy by the Starks and as an inferior by the Lannisters but he wasn't considered an evil person,just another brutal warrior in a world of brutal warriors.
Perhaps someone will be hanged in his place paying for what Rorge did and who knows what other things. Perhaps George will make him lose his helm for ever as a sign that he isn't an animal despite all the Lannister's demeaning behavior and mistreating towards him. It seems that even himself is a bit confused and sees himself as a "dog", someone underserving if not evil,someone not worth respec or love,someone people refuse to look on the face.
All these things are possible but I refuse to see him as some sort of undeserving wreck who has to change completely and turn into a different person,meek and humble, and grovel to get some crumbs of affection and approval from his betters. I know you don't see him like this,LOL, but some poeple seem to do.
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 14, 2015 12:03:38 GMT
What I tried to say about all thoes personas in fiction is that they are an artistic devica that may be very effective but real people are not like that, and as a reflection of this,the Hound (the warrior-Sandor wearing a helmet)is not so evil and Sandor is not an angel when he is not wearing the helm.
He fought like a hero to save Loras and respecting his brother's unprotected head while he was wearing the Hounds helm. Another interesting thing, Gregor aims at the Hounds head,he received a cut in his neck at the inn when he was injured (as sillier-things noticed in her Green knight meta),the dog's head's on the Clegane shield lost their heads, he lost them helm, he lost his head for Sansa (come on, he is in love). What happens with poor Sandor's, or poor Hound's head?
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