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Post by eyesofmist on Jan 31, 2015 22:17:01 GMT
I thought he meant almost a woman, but when I read about Dunk and Tanselle Too Tall, Dunk muttered something about her not being too tall but being tall enough for him. Sandor is Peter Steele but also Dunk, mistreated,bullied, kicked and gone wrong. Dunk brings out his dagger on the red widow and he is a nice young man, with Sandor Goerge takes more risks and dares to depict a romantic lead who is scary,agressive and dangerous,but the dagger as a sexual metaphore or whatever the method shoud be called is there in both scenes. Another thing, do you remember Lorca's Bernarda Alba? There is a very sensual character in the play, Pepe el Romano and his horse is restless, kicking the walls with violence. This represents repressed sexual desire and want of freedom in the play, also virility, the male's sexual drive. The horse is thirsty and I have read in literary reviews on the play that THIRST stands for sexual desire there and other literary works. Sandor is nearly always thirsty, drinking wine, thirsty and drunk around Sansa, because he may drink as much as he can, he can fuck as many women as he can, and his thirst never appeases for he wants Sansa herself, he needs her. He needs sex but with her, and also her love. As for the horses in the story, they sould be paid attention too because both Cleganes, very manly men, ride uncut stallions whereas ser Ilyn rides a gelding and so does Jaime when he rides with him. What does this mean? And what about Sansa the maiden scared of death (sir Illyn Payne represents death in this story) riding a brown horse when the party she is part of is mobbed by a crowd and a man grabs his dress's hem trying to pull her off her horse. Like in this picture. Have a look and decide for yourlselves:  Sandor is alive and kicking, like Stranger in the padlock at the QI and still wanting freedon, passion and sex, that's why Stranger refuses violently to be gelded by the monks, as if the monks where trying to tame Sandor, gelding him in a way but his wild nature refused to be changed, clamed perhaps, but tamed? Sandor? I guess he is indomitable, so this can't be. And there is a little red head that likes his ferocity, don't forget. The metaphor with the stallion is obvious with Sandor too, Stranger. In the book Arya notices that he is exactly like his owner, angry and violent, but sweet with his master, and doesn't let anyone touch him but his master. Like Sandor who doesn't let anyone pet him, but lets Sansa touch his shoulder and then cup his cheek. Sansa only gets it at an unconscius level because she notices he bites any hand that tries to pet him, but she doesn't realise she has petted him and he hasn't bitten her. She also says he would tear apart anyone who tried to hurt his master and he has already cut his way through a mob to save her, has cut a man's arm off to protect her. Would you say he tore the man's arm apart or is it inaccurate because it was a clean cut? Because Ned said a direwolf coud tear a man's arm apart. English is not my first language and I have this kind of doubts. Sansa is very perceptive, and intelligent for her age, she gets him really well but she doesn't go further because of her young age. he is what she says, the mean dog who doesn't let people pet him but would die for his master. The reader can go further though: she is HIS MISTRESS then, because he has torn a man's arm for her (he is the direwolf's replacement after lady died), he has promised to die for her ( a hound will die for you), not to lie to her ( but never lie to you) ,and also look her straigh in the face ( And he’ll look you straight in the face. And that’s more than little birds can do, isn’t it?”) , doing for her exactly what she asks from her in a quite desperate way ( look at me!), time after time. She asked for a knight and got a bear (a hound) a bear who would do anything for her like cutting his way to her into a mob instead of cutting his way away from peril as all the others in their party did, KG knights included, cutting a man's arm to save her, lie for her when he says he hates lies (he lied to cover her when she tried to save Dontos), letting her pet him (like Stranger he bites when anyone tries to pet him, but not her), coming for her and waiting for her instead or running away as fast as possible like a deserter should do (BoBW) and downright offering himself to her ( "I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. "Still can't bear to look, can you?" she heard him say."), He was also willing to leave his ways and become a lordling for her, he who despised lordlings and knighthood, only because he wants to be worthy of her and nothing seems too much for him to do, there are no lengths he would not go for her. If this is not romantic, please tell me what is. By the rule of three he will propose again, he did it twice because this is a hidden proposal : 1.- A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he’ll look you straight in the face. And that’s more than little birds can do, isn’t it?” Before he leaves her he says “Pretty thing, and such a bad liar. A hound? he is THE HOUND, for god's sake, telling her he will die for her but never lie to her, and then taking her silence as a sign of refusal for the first time. He says this and then he leaves but after leaving he calls her pretty thing, an endearment from the brutal scary beast, and how sweet it sounds, simple and down to eath, nothing ornamental a minstrel or a knight would say,something honest, down to earth and genuine, like Sandor himself, like his cloak that was raspy but felt finer than silk against her naked skin. Oh, anohter metaphor here, how would Sandor feel against her naked skin, skin to skin, both naked, as she imagined him in her dream? Loras would feel like silk (Loras has dimples and a smooth skin, like silk then?) but Sandor is older and probably hairy (not necessarily like Rory but most men have hairy chests to some extent), so he would feel a bit scratchy. However, nothing would have ever felt so fine as his skin against hers, then perhaps she will feel something before she can compare, perhaps her silk clothes or perhaps another man's skin. I don't know, what I do know because of these extracts is that she will get to know how his skin feels. "Sandor Clegane unfastened his cloak and tossed it at her. Sansa clutched it against her chest, fists bunched hard in the white wool. The coarse weave was scratchy against her chin, but no velvet had ever felt so fine."2.- Secon proposal and this time it is clearer he is offering his protection, but I think he is offering himself to her too, offering the only thing people have ever valued about him, his prowess as a fighter and a killer: "I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. "Still can't bear to look, can you?" she heard him say.
She says nothing, neither accepting nor refusing his offer but she doesn't look at him and he takes this as a sign of refusal, for the second time. Again. he leaves but not without using another endearment for her: Little Bird... before going away from her life, perhaps for ever, or so she would feel. When looking for the quotes I found something else: There are several things I have just noticed. Tyrion is accompanied by a PET SELLSWORD and a WILDLING WITH A BURNED EYE, a man belonging to the clan of the BURNED MEN. Come on, I know they are Bron and one of the clan's men but their names are not mentioned here, so their role is different,they are there for a reason, because they are SANDOR, they are hinting at him, like the Kettleblacks,who look like him but fuck so many girls and are considered attractive. Sandor is a swornshield, so his sword is for sale, a body guard for Joff instead of for Tyrion and he is a pet because he is a dog, he is the Hound. He is also a burned man. Another thing, ser Boros takes his sword out of his scabbard and Bron (whose name is not mentioned) warns him,the body guard warns him for taking out his sword, that he may get blood all over the pretty white cloaks. I know he is supposed to be warning him against putting out a fight but I think this may be hinting at Sandor again, a man who does dare to get blood all over his white cloack in the mob inciden when he saved her, a man who is about to toss at her his white cloak and get it stained with her blood because she has been beaten and who doesn't mind these stains, also a man who draws his sword and dagger on her twice (Maegor, Blackwater) and is covered in blood so often around her,and she doesn't seem to mind and he doesn't seem to mind either. A man who will draw another kind of sword on her and if he is not careful will get pretty white cloth stained with her maiden's blood all over, but neither him nor Sansa are scared of blood (she saw sir Hugh bleeding to death in fron of her without even blinking). She is a maiden and Sandor is far bigger than average, probably also in his male parts (Peter Steele also was, by the way,and I don't say these for the sake of giggles,no, but because of the parellelisms between him and Sandor once more) . So, there will be some blood even if he is careful. These extract is saying he must be careful when the time comes. Bron is not telling the KG not to unsheath his sword but to be careful when he does. When Tyrion asks for someone to toss his cloak at her, there are several men with cloaks around but only one tosses his at her, only one dares or is willing to do so, only one doesn't mind having her blood all over the white cloth and this man is Sandor. How does she receive it? Grabbing it with strength (like she clutched his torso while both of them were ahorse together, her arms encircling his chest in a tight embrace, with strength),pulling it against her naked skin and noticing it felt coarse and scratchy, like a battle-hardened man whose skin would feel scratchy and coarse because of the scars he must have and the body hair he probably has. And the feel of him will feel so fine, far better than anything she has ever felt before. Oh, she called for a knight and she got a bear, a Hound, all covered with hair, his skin feeling scratchy and coarse because it is covered by hair and scars gained in countless battles. This is what she earned and although she didn't want him at first and continued dreaming of Joff and Loras (a prince and a knight),in the end he was the one to be there for her when nobody was, so later, in the Eyrie, she thinks that perhaps she sould have gone away with him. She has started to realise that perhaps she does want the hairy bear-hound after all. Who are mentioned in her dream of a bedding in a marriage bed? Tyrion, Loras and then Sandor, but Sandor is the one to climb into her bed and demand a song from her, as if it belonged to him because it was his right ( I will have that song from you). Why does he feel entitled to that song? because he is her husband or he will be by then? Perhaps. He will be either he husband or her lover. I tend to think he will be her husband one day. Has she already accepted his proposal? I think she already has. He asked for a song several times. Do you remember how many, by the way? And she accepted once, she said she would sing for him gladly. Of course he didn't believe her because he meant much when he asked for a song, he was asking for sex and also love, without ever daring to think he would get what he wanted. Sandor has never had what he wanted and so doesn't expect to ever get it. "A hound will die for you, but never lie to you. And he’ll look you straight in the face.” He cupped her under the jaw, raising her chin, his fingers pinching her painfully. “And that’s more than little birds can do, isn’t it? I never got my song.”
“I . . . I know a song about Florian and Jonquil.”
“Florian and Jonquil? A fool and his cunt. Spare me. But one day I’ll have a song from you, whether you will it or no.”
“I will sing it for you gladly.”
Sandor Clegane snorted. “Pretty thing, and such a bad liar. A dog can smell a lie, you know. Look around you, and take a good whiff. They’re all liars here . . . and every one better than you.”She said yes, you silly big boy, what else do you want? But he can't believe his ears and his luck. Oh and he doesn't want the story of a fool and his cunt, no. He wants his own song and wants more than adulterous love, because this is what Florian and Jonquil had. Like Peter Steel, who was cheated on by his girlfriend who had been a married woman when they had a relatioship, he doesn't trust this kind of love, he wants it all, he wants to be her lawful husband. And she has accepted and agreed to his request. Neither of them knows what they have just done yet, but this will come to something, i'm sure It will.t What's more, when she bumped into Sandor at the Serpentine, she was coming back from her clandestine encounter with Dontos (her Florian), so their song is not going to be Florian and Jonquil because he is neither Florian nor wants to be be him, he wanst to be more than that, he wants to father her children and be her husband, in front of gods and men. Another interesting aspect is that Florian was a singer, wasn't he? Peter Steele was a singer but his love life wasn't happy and the married woman he loved so passionately ended up cheating on him, or so they say. Sandor always asks for songs, he seems to want them and need them whereas others think they are foolish things (Tyrion and Littlefinger, for instance). The way he speaks is quite often poetic in a harsh unconventional way. He reminds me of Peter Steele again, who was like that because songs were his life, was very much in love with a redhead who broke his heart and always liked redheads as if looking for her in women whose hair was like hers, was a romantic at heart behind his tough guy looks and wrote so many songs about love, death, loss, sadness, broken hearts and disbelief/rejection towards god and religion. I have said before I believe George must have known about Peter Steele and used him as a source of inspiration for Sandor, the more I think about it, the more I believe this is so and find support for this idea in Peter's interviews and George's writing in relation to Sandor. |
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 2, 2015 3:30:49 GMT
I know you know my views on these things, and I agree with what you say here, especially the part with the idea of Sandor becoming Sansa's lawful husband. We have a character who throughout the whole series makes A LOT of noise about about not saying vows. Won't be a knight. Won't take vows for the Kingsguard. He's a novice on the Quiet Isle, so no binding vows have been said. What does that tell me? When this man does take a vow, it's going to be a very big deal.
What is the only vow he's come close to making? In telling Sansa that he COULD keep her safe. He is offering his vow to her. She is frightened, bewildered and doesn't know how to respond, but I think later she starts to understand. Marriage symbolism is all over their interactions:
-the cloak (of course)
-the blood (blood on the cloak, blood mingling)
-the fire (see Alys Karstark's marriage to the Thenn. They had to jump the fire)
-she dreams of him in her marriage bed AND later thinks of how he kissed her in relation to the marriage bed
All things that people have noticed before, I know. However, while I'd be happy to at least get a real affair and admission of their love, I cannot help but feel that Sansa and Sandor are headed for marriage, something binding and long lasting. I certainly hope I'm right!
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 2, 2015 12:44:47 GMT
They also look a bit like Ned and Cat come to life again,the dark-haired grey-eyed grim-looking man,and the beautiful redhead. I noticed this when I read Cat's chapter in AGOT. I noticed something else, when Cat went to the Godswood he looked at the heart tree and the sap was dry on its bark,the tree was old. There was decay everywhere,the leaves, the black pond,etc. Ned was kind but kept saying winter was coming like an ominous mantra and despite being 35 he had white in his beard, white like snow and witer,white like death. Because death is white in ASOIAF.
When we commented Bran's first chapter you (sillier-things)compared the tall sentinel tree with grey-green leves,so full of sap that Will's hands got all covered with it,with Sandor Clegane. The tall warrior clad in grey armour and wearing an olive green cloak. Well, I think Winterfell may need new sap and new blood, and it will come from the Westerlands, and perhaps from someone who may have the blood of the First Men running in his veins as well. He looks like them,so it is possible.
The grey-green sentinel tree was found beyond the wall, in wildling territory and it is the only tree in the forest that is described in detail. Two chapters later we have Ned sitting next to a heart tree (rememer that Sandor dies below a tree,by the Trident-rives often represent the flowing of life in literature),cleaning the blood of an old deserter from Ice's blade. The soil below him is old as time and he is sorrounded by decay.
Time later we see another man sitting below a tree, bleeding to death, as if giving his blood to the thirty land,much like a human sacrifice (Northern sacrifices took place next to trees or on them,Jesus Christ also gave up his life and blood nailed to a wooden-cross,which reminds of ancient sacrifices,in order to save humankind). I don't mean Sandor has anything to do with Jesus whatsoever but he may have something to do with rites of fertility and renewal, he is the green mam, as you pointed out. In Spanish we say renewal takes new sap, and Sandor is bleeding, he bleeds a lot during the series but he hasn't died so far. Then he has the sap of life,his blood and I think he will give it to renew the old North, Winterfell. I hope it will be by fathering Sansa's child and I hope he doesn't have to die to complete this circle of life. I mean, one day he will, but not too soon.
Do you think the sentinel tree represents Sandor so early in the novels? If it does,he is more important for this story than we ever anticipated?
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 9, 2015 5:19:43 GMT
I waited to see if anyone else would reply, but here I go! I do think the sentinel tree represents Sandor, or at the very least, the sentinel tree represents what Sandor represents (at least in part), the vegetative life force, the Green Man--phallic, sticky with sap as death surrounds its roots. However, such life feeds on death, fertilizer in the fields, the flesh we eat. The sentinel rears high, armored with its grey green needles and full of life.
I said this in another post, but remember when the elder is kicking Sandor and Arya out of the village, he says "A man like you brings blood with him." Now that we've been thinking about what blood can represent, I think that is a very powerful statement. A man like Sandor brings blood with him--he brings life and fertility. In Sansa's nightmare before she wakes up to her period, it's Sandor's sword that brings the blood by plunging into her belly. He is not named, but as others have pointed out, only Sandor had a sword during those riots. And later when Sansa thinks of his kiss, she does not name him either. The peasants were fighting with rocks and eggs and filth. He is armored in grey and wears green. He is one of the sentinels who guards both Sansa and Arya. Sansa touches Sandor's cheek and it is sticky with blood. Will holds the tree tightly, and his cheek become sticky with sap.
Since the proposal letter came out, some readers have been doubting Sansa's importance. Well, if you think the people who do magic and fight battles are the only important people,then, no, I don't think she will be important at all. However, if you look at the underlying theme of these works, the story of Sansa and Sandor is the actual embodiment of at least one of the messages which, to paraphrase Ygritte, death is coming for us all, but for now, let us live, love and have children. I think in this day and age, we are cynical about love and parenthood, but there is a kind of magic in love, in childbirth. Without love, marriage, children, songs and beauty, what is the point of anything?
So, yes, in the prologue where the very first young man Sansa has ever been attracted to is killed, while a tall, strong, sticky sentinel pine stands guard and provides safety (temporarily) to a frightened man, yes, I can believer that is meant to represent Sandor Clegane.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 9, 2015 9:39:01 GMT
I'll answer with more detail later, but for the moment I'll share this link on the importance of Sansa in the story: morethanprinceofcats.tumblr.com/post/110287604394/asoiafuniversity-him-e-lbr-the-fact-grrm-didntThe post is great and I really believe she is right. Many people get this story all wrong. If the books had been what that proposal suggests they would have been rubbish, I put it clear and simple,just rubbish. Another carbon copy of the trite fantasy books one can find anywhere and most of which are pure trash. The proposal is full of lame archetypical tropes and boring characters as the person in the post points out better than I can. What makes this story unique and compelling is not the plot but the way, the characters, the atmosphere are conveyed. George himself says he is like a gardener as regards his way of writing,because he has an outline but then lets hiself go, I mean,he lets isnpiration and the charecteres themselves take him where they want. And this is what happened with this series. When he came to Spain, I heard him say he loved historicals but a fellow writer he knew saw his career doomed after publishing a book about those huge boats that used to exist in the Mississipy. Martin also wanted to write a book about those boats and decided to make it a horror vampire story,implying that you have to choose a genre people are willing to read. Going against the current leads nowhere but to failure. You have to eat and you have to sell your books if you want to live on writing, so I suspect he proposes an archetypical argument ( "give them what they want", paraphrasing Sandor) but when he really started writing (and I bet he started before he sent that letter)he does what he feels and what he wants. That's why his characters are better when they are not constricted by the limits of the big picture, as people say, the plot's major outline,that's when they feel genuine, real and captivating. That's why Tyrion feels so interesting at first but not so much after "A Dance with Drangons", and why I love Jon when he was with the wildlings and knew Ygritte but bores me to tears now, the same can be said for Dany. Their struggles is what matters,their lives,the rest is pure fantasy topic and you can find it anywhere. The characters that feel human and real, the things that worry them and frighten them, or the ones than make them happy, this is what makes this story stand out, otherwise it would be like any other fantasy novel, written with skill, because George has a way with words but only that, and these novels are much more than technically well-written novels. The more I revise them they more I am convinced they are. |
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 10, 2015 7:37:37 GMT
I've always wondered why Sandor is so marked by fire. There are many ways to hurt a person, so why fire? He isn't a Targaryen (Blood and Fire,says Dany)and has no connections with them or with the Starks (Aerys burned Ned's father). He could have scars,also half a face destroyed,but fire is not the only way to cause such damage. I've heard than in Death of the Ligh George never mentions the cause for the character with half his face ruined's disfigurement. It could have been fire or anything else. It is not stated,but if they don't say he is bured,I guess it wasn't fire.
For Sandor it is fire, so there must be a reason. There is a connection with divinity (the god of ligth)in that disfigurement, as if he was marked by Rh'llor himself but that means he has to survive (like Cain,bearing the mark and nobody can kill him,by god's design. Sandor is the victim but he bears the mark of fire).Then we have the green fire. Why green? It could have been any colour,it could have been purple like the Targ's eyes,but it is green,a colour that has nothing to do with fire or the Targs whatsoever,green is the colour of nature,nature that is so often destroyed and consumed by fire.
Nature destroyed by fire,it seems to be realated to these idea of cold and fire destroying what is natural,the primal,like Sandor was destroyed,first as a kid in his household and later,trained as if he was a fighting dog by the Lannisters.They destroyed a boy who wanted to be a knight, who liked songs and stories,who unlike the beast in the tale (who was originally selfish) was good inside,but was destroyed by being turned into a beast due to his disfigurement. For Sandor the tale works in reverse,he was good and looking like a monster destroyed him (amongs other things).
Why fire then?
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 11, 2015 5:37:02 GMT
I think you are on to something with the idea of the mark of Cain. Sandor is marked by the god Rh'llor. Thoros of Myr, the priest, confirms this for us, stating that Rh'llor has something planned for Sandor. He has been marked, maybe sanctified?
At any rate, a god or gods has claimed him for one of their own. We have Rh'llor, but he's also been taken in by the brothers on the Quiet Isle. A brother of the faith of the Seven presided over his "rebirth." As far as the Northern gods go, if we go by Bran's visions, and some of the commentary you've made recently, you could say he offered a blood sacrifice to a tree while a raven watched over him as he lay dying by the Trident. I can't remember, but which gods did Sansa ask to send her a knight? Was she in the godswood or the sept?
We have The Burned Men, the Vale tribe, that believes the more important the body part sacrificed to the flames, the greater the warrior. Sandor has had his face sacrificed as well as the skin of his arm. It seems that this could symbolize his greatness as a warrior.
I was thinking though of reasons WHY blood/flesh sacrifices were made, particularly offerings that were consumed by flames. You have the Old Testament rituals of sacrifice where the portions of the sacrifice where burned for God. You also have the druidic influences in ASOIAF, the blood sacrifices to the trees being one example, but there were fire sacrifices too, like the Wickerman, for example.
Sacrifices seemed to have a two main functions--thanksgiving to the gods or especially in the case of fire sacrifices (I think--I'm no expert), the sacrifices would be offered to ensure good harvest or to bring favor back to the land after drought or flood or some such event that led to famine or shortages.
So--why fire? If I want to tie it back to what I think Sandor's main purpose is (and feel free to ignore me), it's a fertility sacrifice, but he goes on living. He is a living sacrifice--again, a living symbol of a fertility/resurrection god.
Or, being placed in the flames is another way of refining who he is, burning away the dross to reveal the true metal beneath. From what I remember of my medieval literature studies, the image of the crucible as a symbol for the refinement and purification of the soul was frequently used (Dante used this symbolism, if I recall correctly). It may be a sign that he is being purified. He has a greater purpose. I think I suspect what it is, but who knows?
What does everyone else think?
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 11, 2015 7:45:38 GMT
I'm not sure but I think she prayed to the Mother for Sandor, although I would have to check that, I may be confusing this with the song she sang to him. If she prayed to the mother,then the Seven would be included too. All the gods would have something to do with this. This seems too grand, perhaps we are overreaching?
But it seems to make sense, doesn't it? He seems cursed but perhaps he isn't. He was an innocent when he was "baptised" like that,with fire instead of water,so to speak, by his monstruous brother. Perhaps the gods have taken pity on him or chosen him for something important, a mission.
It's true that Cain was the man who committed the most horrible crime (kinslaying,in Westerosi terms),but he also was the farmer,and in a twisted way he offered an ominous sacrifice to the land,his brother's blood. Of course it turned out horribly for everyone but, in spite of his sin,God chose not to kill Cain and also let everyone know he didn't want him to be killed either,that was the purpose of the mark.
And it seems it was Cain that built the first city of humankind and named it to honour his own son. He had a wife and at least a son. The myth of Cain and Abel is in the Cleagane's storyline,but it turns out differently,the victim is the one marked and despised whereas the culprit receives honours and respect. It seems another example of how depraved Westeros has become and this goes in the line of what you have said about the Wasteland and everything. Everything is twisted in a place where the innocents are despised and the monsters are honoured. They have chosen not to respect anything that should be sacred when siblings have sex and then children with each other,the laws of hospitality are broken,only power struggles,lust, greed and excessive indulgence in the pleasures of the flesh seem to matter, a place where honour and loyalty are payed with murder and abuse (see what they do to Ned and Sansa,the more idealistic people in the series apart from Brienne, who is riduculed despite being the purest knight of all).
I don't expect justice for Sandor because there was none for other characters,but perhaps the gods decided to choose him for something and that's why he didn't die when he was burned so horribly and treated with ointmets,as he said,or why he survived orphaned and disfigured as he was,and after that he survived all those battles and the wounds inflicted upon him. At the inn (the crossroads again,because the Trident is a sort of crossroads too),he receives a lot of flesh wounds but none seem mortal, so he would have died from blood loss,as in a sort of human sacrifice. Some readers say the crow in the death scene is related to Bloodraven and that tree is linked to that web of trees through wich Bloodraven and later Bran can see everything,so the gods apparently have decided to spare him for the moment because they have designs on him.
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maidenpools
Junior Member
hyped for a re-read!!
Posts: 50 
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 11, 2015 9:37:36 GMT
I really liked what you pointed out about Stranger and the literary motif of a horse as a symbol of male virility. Sandor and Stranger are deeply connected via temperament and symbolism in the plot, and I think it would be foolish not to take the fact that Stranger is alive and ungelded as a sign that Sandor may be "at rest" but he will not remain at rest forever, and will instead make his way in the world as a new man. But the "ferocity" Sansa was glad he had will remain intact. Off-topic - I remember reading Bernarda Alba in my high school Spanish class! Good play. With regard to Sandor acting as a temporary replacement for Arya and Sansa's direwolves, symbolically, here is some great meta (you've probably already read it but I figured it couldn't hurt to share): corseque.tumblr.com/post/13629104770corseque.tumblr.com/post/13628851596nobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/21847762675/thats-an-excellent-question-because-ive-beenAnd a little bit of meta re: the white cloak: ofhouseadama.tumblr.com/post/19273124547ofhouseadama.tumblr.com/post/43196945520Also, amazing commentary from both of you on how the gods seemed to have interceded on Sandor's behalf! I always thought of the Mother having intervened for him in answer to Sansa's plea (she prays for him in the sept and then later sings for him and it's interesting to note that she's the only character whose prayers to the Seven seem to have been explicitly answered), and of how Beric said R'hllor had plans for him, but I hadn't thought of all the other ways in which Sandor seems to be a living sacrifice of sorts, with some greater destiny than we know in the context of various faiths. |
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 12, 2015 23:31:17 GMT
Yes,I have read all those posts and they are great, but I still have many doubts about what Lady's death means and what it means for Sandor to be Lady's replacement. I have the impresion that it is really important but I am not sure of its implications. Why does she say to the old dog at the Fingers "I wish you were lady? I think it transcends the obvious,I mean,she misses her direwolf, that's normal,but she is saying to an old dog that she wishes he were Lady. Does this have anything to do with Sandor? Because that dog seemed to represent Sandor in a way? Does she also miss Sandor?
I can't begin to imagine how Sandor can be a replacement for her direwolf, a man instead of a direwolf, a male instead of a female, an animal that was like Sansa's avatar and also a part of her,the lady in her replaced by a man who apparently can't be more differente from Sansa. This replacement is symbolic but I still have to figure out what George means by this. Any suggestions, ladies?
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 13, 2015 5:55:12 GMT
I don't remember where I read this (maybe in perusing a westeros.org forum?), but I read the theory that Lady represented Sansa's primal instincts and sexuality. I think Women Who Run With Wolves was quoted, and I'm really not familiar with it, I like the idea.
Ned, the father, kills her wolf, the father curbing his daughter's power and sexuality. Sansa was nearly the perfect lady, a fit consort for a future king, but as her septa comments, when it came to the direwolf, she was as headstrong as Arya. Then Lady is taken from her, and what outlet does she have for that primal nature?
If the relationship with Sandor is meant to be a romantic one, then the killing of the wolf forces a primal, instinctive connection with a man who is almost an animal himself--his honest, raw desires so different from the courtly men she would have been expected to love and interact with.
The old blind dog is sad replacement for the virile Hound that left her behind in King's Landing, but maybe it's a sign that her own primal nature is beginning to return? The direwolf is dead. The Hound is gone, but she briefly has that dog, blind and unseeing (just like Sansa was maybe blind to Sandor's true intentions), but at the end of AFFC she hears the wind howl like a ghost wolf. A connection to Jon or a sign that her own wolfish nature is being reborn? Does that mean that she regains her wolfish self, which means she may not need a Hound, but she might have need of the man, Sandor?
Also, by making Sandor the replacement for lady, that indirectly makes Sansa the knight--which I've seen speculated upon before. So, I don't really have anything to add except to say that it's a lovely inversion since Sansa's kindness slays the Hound which was keeping Sandor trapped inside. There now, isn't that sappy! (but true!)
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maidenpools
Junior Member
hyped for a re-read!!
Posts: 50
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 13, 2015 9:32:42 GMT
Yes,I have read all those posts and they are great, but I still have many doubts about what Lady's death means and what it means for Sandor to be Lady's replacement. I have the impresion that it is really important but I am not sure of its implications. Why does she say to the old dog at the Fingers "I wish you were lady? I think it transcends the obvious,I mean,she misses her direwolf, that's normal,but she is saying to an old dog that she wishes he were Lady. Does this have anything to do with Sandor? Because that dog seemed to represent Sandor in a way? Does she also miss Sandor? I can't begin to imagine how Sandor can be a replacement for her direwolf, a man instead of a direwolf, a male instead of a female, an animal that was like Sansa's avatar and also a part of her,the lady in her replaced by a man who apparently can't be more differente from Sansa. This replacement is symbolic but I still have to figure out what George means by this. Any suggestions, ladies? You know, I think it's interesting that she's also thinking of Lady and says her name out loud right before Sandor reveals himself in her room during the Battle of Blackwater. The idea of Lady being in some way a symbol of Sansa's primal instincts would seem to fit here. In any case, as you've both said, Lady's absence definitely means something as it keeps getting brought up, but I'm not sure what that is exactly yet, though it being symbolic of a loss of instincts and sexuality may be correct. |
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 18, 2015 4:49:54 GMT
Thinking of Sandor and his nihilistic tendencies and found this on a website about Camus and the absurd:
Sounds quite a bit like our Sandor? Starts out with a death wish, "killing is the sweetest thing." Could be he's going to now lead that active, heroic life? If Martin did intend Sandor to be a kind of nihilistic/existentialist figure (he rides The Stranger, I mean, c'mon!), could it be he is due to live his active, heroic life? He's already been put on trial by the Brotherhood and found innocent (unlike, say, Merseult, in Camus' "The Stranger"), so rather than death, I tend to think a well lived life may be next for him. What do you think?
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 18, 2015 12:20:19 GMT
I really think that is what awaits him, the knight he always wanted to be but for the right reasons. The problem is that I don't like this idea much because it makes me fear he will die like a hero,you know? We have seen this too often in films and books. When the sinner turns heroic he usually leaves in brazing glory. If the trope is completed he will die heroically and I would hate that. I know it is possible, though, and very likely.
This guy has suffered an awful lot in his life, he's really got no respite since who knows when, probably never growing up next to Gregor the way he did. Perhaps he felt safe when Gregor was away squiring for some knight, but this didn't last long,unfortunately.
I agree with you that he is far from a nihilistic figure. He pretends to be because it is his coping mechanism. Otherwise,how could he have survived the life he's had? However,deep down he is still the child who played with toy knights,the man who saves little girls and even helpless young men,the man who gives the gift of mercy with so much tenderness.
With his bleak worldview, Sandor was only trying to save himself SOME pain, and he said some to Sansa when he advised her so that she could protect herself (Save yourself some pain), because he did have to endure a great deal of pain in his life.
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 18, 2015 15:14:47 GMT
I'll be the blind optimist and say that I really think Sandor might survive. If he is on a hero's journey, he currently in the "underworld." As far as the reader knows, he's been "dead" for the last two books. He's due for some resurrection and some living! As much as I love Sansa and Sandor's story together, as much as I think their story is the thematic heart of the novels, Sandor Clegane is not the ultimate hero of the story. We have Jon and Dany for that at least. There could be more heroic figures who are due to commit a great sacrifice and save the world, but what does it serve Sansa's story if Sandor sacrifices himself for her again?
He's already sacrificed part of himself, The Hound, slain by her touch and her kindness. Sansa doesn't need a hero, not really. She needs someone who will love her and father her children and help her build a home. I fully believe that is Sansa's happy ending--not ruling the North, not being a queen, not being a "player." I think for many readers (forgive me as generalize), that may be a bittersweet ending if Sansa does not kill Petyr (I think that may be reserved for Stoneheart--just speculation, no proof) or get her revenge on Cersei or become a ruling force. How sweet for the character who just wants to be loved for herself to be loved by the man who reveals who he truly is to her, a man full of sap and life--full of so much sap and life that he can bleed and bleed and bleed and STILL he lives on. I just don't see a point to Sandor dying, not at this time, not unless it's just to add some tragedy. However, I don't think Martin writes like that. For all people like to joke, don't get too attached!! He kills them all!! He doesn't really. I cannot think of any death that has not made narrative sense for me.
There have been so many deaths. There have been weddings that were used as acts of war, not true unions of man and woman to bring together family and children. There have been so few births, and what pregnancies and births that we've had in the story, have a kind of taint to them. Poor Dany and her miscarriage(s)--I think she did have a miscarriage in ADWD. Lysa and her abortion and miscarriages and one sickly son who may or may not be Jon Arryn's. Sweet Gilly and her baby gotten on her by her own father. Mance Raydar's son whose mother died giving him birth during a battle and then sent away with Sam and Gilly. Jeyne Westerling's own mother giving her teas to prevent Robb's seed from taking. Even Edmure and Roslyn's baby was conceived in treachery. It seems to me we are due for a honest, loving relationship that produces healthy, true born children.
It may not be popular to say, but motherhood/fatherhood is important. Birth is the only thing that defeats death. Sansa, more and more in the text, is The Mother. The only other character who has been in a father role consistently (aside from actual fathers, like Ned obviously), from the Lannister children to Arya, is Sandor. He takes the rock from Arya's hand before she can bash his skull in "like she was a baby." He swaddles her like a baby to keep her from attacking him at night. He feeds her, cuts her hair, acts as her father in the village, and takes care her long past what would be beneficial to him. As unpopular as it may be to take the "badass" like The Hound and tie him to a family, I suspect this is where is story is going. And I love it!
And you know, to love and birth doesn't have to be a sappy endeavor (though I am a sap!). I have to recall To His Coy Mistress, by Andrew Marvell, who is convincing his lady love to give it up and love him because death is coming (winter is coming):
Marvell compares the lovers to "amorous birds of prey" who are "tearing their pleasures." I can't help but think of Sansa and Sandor, the wolf and the dog, bloody and passionate, tearing their love and life amidst the strife of the world, living until they die. Sometimes I think Ygritte was there to state this important theme, but she had no children with Jon. It was passionate but did not last. Perhaps, just perhaps, Sansa and Sandor will be the ones to really live it out (the third red-haired girl/grey eyed man pairing).
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