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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 18, 2015 18:13:31 GMT
Sometimes I think Ygritte would have given Jon a child if she had lived,that she was pregnant when she died. The image of that cave where they made love makes me think of motherhood and life. It would make sense because Cat gave children to Ned and she hoped she had another one in that scene where they appeared in the aftermath of their love-making. I don't think their love was only passionate,I think she wanted a family with him,she wanted everything but it couldn't be. He has a mission and I think he will make a grand sacrifice,not necessarily dying but giving up love and children in order to dedicate himself to a cause, a very important one. I don't really seen Dany as the one capable of a selfless sacrifice,that's Jon for me, and perhaps she will be the mother of all her people.If what Mirri Mazduur said is true she will not have her own children but she will be the mother of many in a different way.
As for Tyrion, I really don't know where he is heading,really. He stands tall as a king in Winterfell but I don't know if he will become the king sitting on the Iron Throne. Perhaps. Do you think he may marry Dany and rule Westeros with her?
I can't see Jon ruling Westeros,I think he transcends that and is more important than that. He is to fight against the Others and protect the world from death and horror. The Iron Throne is nothing compared to that.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 19, 2015 23:46:44 GMT
There is a thread on Westeros.org where they are discussing if Tyrion&Sansa could be inspired in Beauty and the Beast. The thread is nice but what I love is this answer by Rapsy to another persons who asks why Sandor is better that Tyrion when thinking of a love interest for her. I think it is spot on, really good analysis:
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 19, 2015 23:46:48 GMT
There is a thread on Westeros.org where they are discussing if Tyrion&Sansa could be inspired in Beauty and the Beast. The thread is nice but what I love is this answer by Rapsy to another persons who asks why Sandor is better that Tyrion when thinking of a love interest for her. I think it is spot on, really good analysis:
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 22, 2015 19:18:20 GMT
I like and agree with everything in that post except for the idea that Sandor is not Sansa's perfect match. I do think that Sandor IS the perfect match for Sansa. Most people are only looking at Sansa on the surface--the perfect lady. Her own mother says "she was a lady at 3." Arya when she does think of Sansa, thinks of her as the girl who loves lemon cakes. Everyone sees her as just the song loving little princess who likes cake. We know next to nothing about Domeric Bolton, though on surface level, he's a nice Northern boy who longs for a brother and makes the mistake of being kind to Ramsay. I don't think our ideal matches have to be the same on the surface. It's the deeper connection that is important and Sandor and Sansa have that. Sansa is, for all that her own family and everyone around her seem to forget, a wolf. The fact that her father kills her wolf is deeply symbolic. Ned doesn't realize the horror of what he's done until it's too late. Would he have killed Arya's wolf so readily I wonder? Or would he have respected that connection because Arya is outwardly more wolfish? Sansa has those wolf instincts, but she does not wear them on the outside. Just as Arya is a very tender lady in some of her inner thoughts, but on the outside, she is the she-wolf. The wolf in Sansa responds to the Dog in Sandor. The boy who would have been a knight in the ferocious Hound responds to the kindness and ladylike qualities that exist in Sansa. There is strong give and take, and it seems that each recognizes in the other what society refuses to see in them (there was an awkward sentence! ). I also tend to think Sansa and Sandor will have a happy ending. I have NO evidence to support this other than, it just feels that way to me. Joseph Campbell has some very interesting things to say about tragedy vs. happy endings. He says that happy endings, especially in earlier cultures, were held to be something almost holy, a moment of transcendence from the horror of life. Tragedy is an art that reflects the reality of life, but a happy ending is transcendent in that it is not something a human can expect to have in real life, but in the story it gives hope, and without hope, what is life?
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 23, 2015 10:53:23 GMT
And a great saga where there is only tragedy is not believable. Most people are reasonably happy with their lives in real life.I can't believe all the characters will have tragic endings because that would make for a bad story, I think there will be a bit of everything,like in life itself.
This quote is very clever,Orson Wells was a very clever man. He is right, there must be some happy endings and this doesn't mean the story is not believable. It's just an image of life,there are bright moments and also sad ones.
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 12, 2015 13:44:23 GMT
I remember talking about this before,with several people, and some of us agreed that it seems Sandor is telling Sansa what he himself wants from her instead of what Joff in particular and men in general want from women. The only thing that made us doubt our impresion was that last sentence: “and fear him”, because Sandor wants Sansa to look at him,to accept him. The first time he spoke to her,his first words to her were: “Do I frighten you so much,girl?” ,while his hands rested on her shoulders not unglently, given that she thougt it was his father who was holding her.
It can’t believe he wanted her to fear him,although sometimes he was mean and scary to her,perhaps trying to teach her a lesson: that she can’t trust anyone and must be very careful if she wants to survive.
I’m nearly positive that in those sentences he is saying what he,Sandor Clegane, would want from Sansa because he even wants to hear those pretty words the septa taught her, whereas I don’t think Joff is interested in anything she has to say. Sandor complains about her courtesies and says they are lies,they are empty, but deep down, he likes them,just as he likes Sansa and her goodness and sweetness. He fears this goodness of hers will bring pain and disaster to her,like his boyhood dreams brought tragedy to little Sandor, but he can’t help being drawn to her as a whole, kindness and goodness included. She is genuine,the real thing,the “perfect” little lady and he knows.So he may bark and snarl but he likes those courtesies he mocks when they come from her.
Here Sandor must be speaking for himself because I’m sure Joff doesn’t give a fig about what Sansa says at all. I don’t think he really listens to her,but the Hound does. I’m sure Joff wants Sansa to be pretty and smell nice, and to love him,but he isn’t interested in her words or opinions.
That pause before the last sentence is another indication that Sandor was talking about what he wants because it separates the horrifying last sentence from the rest. Joff is a psycho and wants the girl to fear him, he probably gets off on that. Not Sandor,who didn’t kiss her during the BoBW night because she closed her eyes and said “you are afraid of everything”.That pause is very effective,it appears before what chills one’s blood,what makes Joff a monster,Joff, not Sandor.
We know what Sandor likes in Sansa,but what does she like in him? I think she likes his honesty, although sometimes he goes too far with it, and the way he protects her and tries to help her,but I think she is also attracted to him as a man.
Why? He doesn’t look pretty or flatters her,although he says she is pretty several times. However, she likes him and fantasizes about kissing him.
Many people say she can’t be attracted to him because he is so different from the boys she used to like, but I think she has learned her lesson and found out what she really likes:a real man who has strength,honesty, courage and support to give her. Flattery and gallantries are nothing when compared to this,to a man who would give up his own life to save hers,and he, Sandor, has proved he is that kind of man. And what’s more,not unlike Sandor himself,Sansa likes in him something she is supposed to despise: his ferocity. He mocks her courtesies but likes them and she says she hates his fierce nature (she calls him hateful and “hates” his anger) but misses it in others and is probably attracted to this trait. When she thinks of Dontos she wishes he had some of the Hound’s ferocity and later misses Sandor when he is gone, whishing he was with her.
Sometimes people say one thing when they mean another and seem something on the surface but deep inside they may be very different,so sweet Sansa is a she-wolf from the north and she likes ferocity and strength in a man whereas ill-tempered Sandor is a true knight at heart and likes the true lady in Sansa.
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Post by sillierthings on Dec 12, 2015 16:24:34 GMT
This is the heart of their relationship and why it works so well. She is the wolf on the inside, he is the dog on the outside and he helps bring out the ferocity she needs to survive. Sandor is the knight on the inside and Sansa is the perfect lady on the outside. She helps him rediscover his idealism and hope which HE needs to survive (and not just turn into the nihilistic monster with a suicide wish). They complement each other perfectly. There is one other thing. Sansa needs a fierce man to protect her. As much as I love Ned, I don't get the idea that he was particularly fierce. It's not that he couldn't be -- he certainly frightened Cat enough to never ask about Jon's mother again after she mentioned Ashara Dayne. However, he did not bring it out to protect his family. Whether it would have been politically wise or not, I can imagine that Sansa wanted her father to defend her from King Robert and Cersei, to not kill her wolf. She later in her thoughts blames Arya for Lady's death, and much is made of the fact by other fans that she does this because she has to get along with her betrothed's family. However, she has to blame Arya because otherwise, she has to blame Ned, her father, who should be her first example of protection, and admit that he sold her off to crazy people and then killed her wolf, her magical dire wolf, rather than stand up to Robert (who was supposed to be his best friend). I imagine having a truth telling, ferocious Hound who OVER and OVER and OVER protects her from other people would be very, very attractive indeed! During their conversation on Maegor's holdfast, Sandor does not right out insult Ned, but he reminds Sansa of his death, indicates that her own father was a killer, too. Ned did not show his own inner wolf in KL, though we know he must have been fairly fierce at some point in his life. This is from Sandor, who only survives KL because he becomes The Hound and hides his inner softness. To me, he is brutally reminding Sansa that her own father, the man who should have protected her, And I'm not going to write an essay , but I feel like you COULD write an essay on the use of ellipses in Sandor and Sansa's thoughts and dialogue. So much meaning is conveyed by those pauses, and in the example you gave above (...fear him), it's the space that let's us know it's not Sandor who is the monster. Or think about that "almost..." from the Serpentine. He's reacting to her as a woman and realizing, for maybe the first time, she's IS almost a woman and ALMOST tall enough for him to kiss (if we can use Dunk's reactions to Tanselle, and I think we can!). Sansa does it too
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 12, 2015 16:38:08 GMT
You are so right,with them it isn't so much what they say but what they keep for themselves,marked by those pauses,especially in Sandor's case, as he doesn't have a POV.
And this is another example of how comments made by several people contribute to finding truths we might not have reached in isolation. This reminds me of all those findings we made about medieval literture themes or about Illyn Paine, death and the maiden,Bergman's film,the dance of death,Stranger or the meaning of horses in ASoIaF.
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 12, 2015 17:05:00 GMT
I love the quote above because it mystifies me. He keeps following her,turning up unexpedtedly in dark corners to have conversations alone with her,insists that she look at him,that she is always scared of him and can't bring herself to look him in the eye,but when she does look at him and speaks her mind she tells her to get lost because she feels uncomfortable under her scrutiny.
There's another quote I find very interesting:
I always found his claiming that killing is the sweetest thing there is really strange because others take pleasure in cruelty and death, like Joff or Ramsay, but not Sandor. His trademark (cutting people in half) blow seems brutal but is it? I'm not so sure.It surely is efficient and fast,the opposite of cruel,in fact. He delivers a fast death but does not seem to enjoy it.
Why does he say it is the sweetest thing there is? Perhaps because of the death wish he has himself, that suicide wish that is latent in him but he doesn't give up to because he is a fighter and still has some hope? This may be a reason, in fact he gives in to his self-destructive desires sleeping int he open,dead drunk in the Riverlands. He is a deserted and there must be a price for his head. The last straw is finding out Sansa married Tyrion,that breaks him completely and he fights the Mountain's men in the worst circumstances possible,perhaps wanting them to finish him off. he ends up begging for mercy,and wishing death,not salvation. I think he asked for the gift of Mercy not so much because of the terrible physical pain but because he didn't want to stand the emotional pain any more.
There's another explanation to saying killing is so sweet. Sandor says Ned found out the truth on the sept's steps when they killed him. And this truth is the sword, violence,that you can only trust the sword. This is the boy who felt horribly helpless,a defenceless victim,a victim through and through,and then he made a choice and hid his inner softness, as you said,in order to survive,and the victim became the butcher.Ned was honourable and died, Rhaegar was honorable and died,so Sandor's truth is that you kill or you die,as Cersei said. That's why killing is the sweetest thing there is, because it's what separates the butcher from the victims and Sandor will do anything to avoid being a victim again.
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Post by sillierthings on Dec 12, 2015 20:57:56 GMT
I think for Sandor, who was right on the verge of losing his entire soul before he met Sansa, death would be very sweet. He cannot have what he wants (a wife, a family, love). The only things he can allow himself to excel at and not feel a hypocrite is death and fighting. Killing is the sweetest thing there is because it would be a sweet relief from his very existence.
It's ironic though because he still fights so hard to stay alive. He hates life, but at the same time, his instincts are to survive. He wants to die, but he's so full of sap and vigor. He won't barge into the Twins because he's not done living yet. Even at his lowest drunk under the tree in the Riverlands, he fights Beric for his life. Even in the tavern with Gregor's men, he works very hard boiling wine, tending his wounds, ordering Arya to help him. On an animal level, he doesn't want to die, but you are right, the emotional pain is what makes him try to give up, to get Arya to end it for him.
I think it was less the Elder Brother's physical healing and more his ability to act as a counselor, a confessor and a true "brother" to Sandor that started to heal the emotional wounds that made him desire death.
Profound and for me, exactly right.
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Post by katie on Dec 13, 2015 4:07:00 GMT
Yup, it's all just macho posturing to cover up the fact that he's still just a scared little boy. The text proves that he finds no actual joy in killing.
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 19, 2015 9:52:31 GMT
I've found this post on tumblr and I've added the link because it's a real experiece and I really think it reflects what happened to Sandor and Sansa. eyesofmist.tumblr.com/post/135460339329/no-ones-ever-looked-at-me-like-thatI think it's beautiful and that Sandor feels exactly like the young man in this story when Sansa treats him as if he was like any other person and there was nothing wrong with him while Sandor thinks there are all sorts of things that are wrong about his person in all senses, not just his scars. Sansa may not be able to look at him many times but she does treat him right and this draws him to her like a moth to the flame but also makes him lose it, like the guy in this story. Her kindness brings him to tears. The -'dog' lets the girl pet him and doesn't bite. In fact he's been trained like a fight dog and most would never dare to touch such dogs and much less if you aren't their owner but Sansa is brave enough to touch a man ( when she pets his shoulder) who is so mean and dangerous, really dangerous, not 'romace novel' dangerous. And how does he react? It'surprising, he keeps still and quiet and lets her touch him, without sarcasm or mean words, and there is the big bad hound, the notorious Sandor Clegane, that's what he really is like, like any other man. I bet he is the one who is most surprised at his own reactions to this extraordinay brave girl, because it takes guts to reach to someone as scary and nasty as him. Scary and nasty he may be but he's still human and will show with his future actions that he is not evil, nothing like Gregor, Ramsay or even Littlefinger, who are usually treated much better than him. I also noticed that at rehab they didn't want men and women to touch or pair up. I guess they weren't in the right mental state to fall in love or get involved with anyone. When Sansa and Sandor are at KL none of them is in the position to get involved with anyone because both of them are broken. But they need human contact and find it in the other. However, Martin has the sense to keep that budding attraction they start to feel at bay. Like the god of Death, love has to wait. It's not for today. George had to make up a context that would explain why Sansa didn't leave KL's landing with a man who offered her the chance to avoid an unbearable and most dangerous situation. Sandor had to be derailed, drunk, violent and completely broken for her to stay, considering where and how she was. But she had to stay because narratively speaking their time wasn't that and because they weren't in the right conditions for their relationship to develop. First he has to rehab, which he is doing, and she has to grow up and analise her feelings. I know there's something grand awaiting them precisely because nothing happened between them, not even a kiss, if anything had happened it would have spoilt the future romance they'll live in the future, when the time is right and he has completed his quest and his purification, like the knight he is at heart.
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 25, 2015 19:58:28 GMT
This picture is great, Sandor and Sansa look exactly how they are described in the books. The only thing that's wrong is Sandor's hair, because he brushes it to cover his scars,not like here,but apart from that he is Sandor and she is Sansa, don't you think? The picture is amazing, her technique is incredible.
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Post by katie on Dec 25, 2015 23:21:13 GMT
Yep, that is him, that is Sandor. And I love what this painting implies -- this is AFTER he has already said "Enough", because that is what prompts Joff to order her stripped in the first place. And look at Sandor... glaring at Joffrey with his sword loosened in its scabbard, as if ready to be drawn! Oh my! Perhaps Tyrion walking in at just that moment saved more than just Sansa!
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 26, 2015 0:23:51 GMT
I agree, definitely. Poor Sansa got worse treatment because of Sandor's 'interference' and things would have turned into really serious shit for him if Tyrion hadn't turned up and stopped everything. Some say that he would have retreated if things got serious but I'm not sure, I don't know if he could have stayed there without letting everyone see what he felt. Someone could have guessed he felt something for her and he would have paid for that, perhaps with his life. I don't want to imagine what Joff could have done to Sansa if Sandor defied her further to protect her. I can imagine Sandor grabbing his sword like in this picture and going beserk but this would have been very bad for him and for Sansa too. So George found the perfect solution having Tyrion save the day. I think his scene isn't about Tyrion saving Sansa, as some say, but about Sandor on the verge of losing it for her, as you have said. It is shown subtly but beautifully.
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