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Post by katie on Mar 17, 2015 21:47:20 GMT
So, we've discussed before GRRM's love of using the Rule of Threes in ASOIAF and how there are several examples in the Sandor/Sansa storyline, but I've also noticed that he has a thing for sevens too -- the Seven Kingdoms, Faith of the Seven, etc. It got me wondering if the Rule of Sevens applies to SanSan anywhere, and I realized that it kind of does -- they had 7 major encounters with each other prior to their separation:
1. Kingsroad 2. Hand's Tourney 3. Serpentine Steps 4. Public beating 5. Bread Riot 6. Maegor's rooftop 7. BoBW
Do you think this was was deliberate? If so, what do you think we can infer from it? Does it mean that their relationship required only these 7 major encounters in order for them to leave enough of an impact on each other to stay present in the other's mind until their inevitable reunion? Or does this mean that their relationship is complete, having used up their encounter "quota"? (I certainly hope it's not the latter!)
Thoughts??
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 18, 2015 0:07:05 GMT
Cool! I'd never noticed that. So, since Sansa and Sandor's union is CLEARLY preordained by the gods themselves (I hope), maybe it doesn't mean that it is complete so much as it has been perfected and ready to get going!
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Post by katie on Mar 18, 2015 2:26:49 GMT
Okay, let's go with that! LOL
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 18, 2015 15:24:02 GMT
I didn't want to shut down the convo! That's a very cool pattern--do you see any other "sevens" between them? I'd like to see if there are other signs of the gods at work in their connection. I think there is a lot there. What does anyone else see and what significance are they?
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Post by katie on Mar 18, 2015 16:48:05 GMT
I had attempted to associate each of the seven encounters with each of the Seven gods themselves (or each of the seven faces of the one god, whatevs), but it didn't really work out, LOL.
I haven't noticed any other "sevens" between them but that could likely be because their story is not finished so we just can't see them yet. ;-)
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 18, 2015 23:03:01 GMT
There is something. The way the statues of the Seven are described when Stannis and Melissandre had them burned. I would have to read the extract again but the maiden's and the warrior's statues had fallen and they looked as if they were in a close embrace. It is something like this.
I had written a post about this but it was long ago. I'd have to look for it. That part was interesting as if foreshadowing something. The werrior and the maiden lying in an embrace and burning. Sounds familiar? LOL.
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Post by katie on Mar 18, 2015 23:45:50 GMT
Oooh I hadn't noticed that before! But it's funny you should bring that up, eyesofmist, because there's a line in a Cersei AFFC chapter that stuck out at me where she is in the sept and makes note of the Mother, the Maid, and the Stranger:
I thought it was interesting that Cersei made note of those 3 gods in particular, as Sansa has been associated with both the Mother and the Maid, and Sandor is so closely associated with the Stranger (for more reasons than just his horse).
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 19, 2015 6:44:34 GMT
I've been really busy at work these days and I couldn't spend much time on tumblr but I'll look for that extract. The seven gods are destroyed by Melissandre and her acholites and the statues are described in detail, not only those two but the position they both are, together and lying on the gound as if embracing while they are consumed by fire makes you think of Sansa and Sandor, the maid and the warrior, on Sansa's bed during the BoBW night.
I know this is only marginally related to the rule of sevens but these gods are seven in number and two of them seem to relate to Sansa and Sandor as they were when they bonded in KL They were very much a warrior and a maiden when they shared that "burning" night "together".
Perhaps the rule of seven was closed for them with that night's encounter because later they parted ways and started a new role, that of mother and father for Arya and Robin respectively. I don't think Sandor is the Stranger any more, perhaps Tyrion is more like the Stranger now, I guess Sandor's role will be that of the father in the future.
I am convinced their relationship didn't finish with Blackwater. On the contrary, it started in its new dimension. Now they both have realised in what way and to what extent they miss and long for each other. They want each other badly and they know it although they don't know whether their feelings are returned or not.
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Post by katie on Mar 19, 2015 15:28:32 GMT
I know GRRM is all about the "bittersweet" endings, but let's be real, for both Sansa AND Sandor to end this series NEVER knowing how the other feels about them would just be a fucking TRAGEDY. I've said before, even if they never end up together, even if they never consummate their relationship, ALL I WANT is for them to know how they feel about each other, to know that they were loved, for THEMSELVES. Arg!
Anyhoo, I would argue that Sansa was actually more of the Mother on the night of the BoBW. She was the one who tended to Lancel and calmed the panicking ladies, and she sang the Mother's Hymn to soothe Sandor. She was also menstruating, so I'm sure that helped kick her maternal instincts into overdrive. ;-) It was Cersei who was trying to play the Maid that night, in her white gown and whatnot (nice try, Cersei! LOL). Sandor started out the night as the Warrior and morphed into the Stranger, and yes, I think once he got to the QI, he was the Stranger no more. He had faced down and then overcome Death. The none-too-subtle indication of this is when his horse Stranger was renamed Driftwood. sillierthings has meta'd on this more brilliantly than I, and she has suggested that Sandor has still to play the Father and the Smith (I would posit that he has already played the Crone, what with all the guidance he provided for Sansa in KL). Many people consider his time with Arya has him playing the Father, but I don't know about that -- yes, he pretended to be her father a few times, but as an actual father figure-type to her? No. Everyone would like to think so (chiefly the anti-SanSan Sandor stans), but this is simply not true. I perceived no fatherly feelings whatsoever from Sandor toward Arya. I'm sure he cared, to an extent, but not in that way. So yes, I think he still has yet to play out the Father role, and it will likely be as an actual father; and the Smith part will come in with helping to rebuild the North/Winterfell.
At least, this is what I hope!!!
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 19, 2015 17:32:02 GMT
There relationship reached a kind of transcendence with the Blackwater. If there had been the romantic song and the kiss, the resolution there and then, it would have been just another romantic tragedy like so many that have come before them--no way that could have ended happily, even if she did run away with him. Now, the gods themselves are invoked. She did not sing Florian and Jonquil, the romantic song. Sansa sang a hymn, a sacred song while they were in that bed together, bloody and bleeding and vulnerable. I've seen people speculate how Sansa "killed" the Hound at that moment, or at least started the process leading to his eventual "rebirth" (and there must be a rebirth--The Elder Brother's story of dying and being reborn wasn't just there to convince Brienne to go away). Sansa prays more than any other character. Sandor professes his atheism and then ends up with a group of monks. The religious connection to their relationship has to be significant.
I remember that scene where the statues of the Seven burn, and yes, I think it says something like the Warrior was in the Maiden's embrace. Also, thinking about the fact that there have been seven meeting between Sansa and Sandor, it could be the mark of "pefection" for the relationship, stamped with approval by the gods. I don't remember exactly, but I thought the number 7 is sacred because it's the number of completion, the number that indicates something is perfect and sacred. So, maybe it's less about something being complete as in being over and done with, but more like the gods of Westeros are saying "Look at these two kids! They're perfect for each other! Rh'llor? Don't you think these two are just the perfect couple?"
Rh'llor approves and lets Sandor win his trial by fire.
"Old Gods of the trees? What do you guys think?"
The Old Gods make her trip over Sandor after she prays for a true knight.
The gods are playing match maker. It is known.
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Post by katie on Mar 19, 2015 18:25:16 GMT
Oh yes, his redemption arc (sorry, eyesofmist, I know you hate that word! lol) definitely started with Sansa. I want to punch people who claim it started with Arya. SANDOR WOULD NOT HAVE EVEN BEEN WITH ARYA IN THE FIRST PLACE IF IT HADN'T BEEN FOR SANSA, OMFG. One of my fave moments from that chapter is, after EB is done with his whole long spiel, Brienne just says, "I see." And EB replies, "Do you?" Yeah, Brienne, do you, DO YOU?? Bahahaha, I have this image in my head of all the gods from all the religions sitting around a poker table just laughing at all the dumbasses down below. But yes, it is quite remarkable how they are "touched" by multiple gods/religions in the narrative. Sandor in particular seems to have a lot of deities looking out for him -- The old gods brought him and Sansa together, the Red God spared his life from the BwB, and the Seven are healing him on the QI. I wonder when/if he'll parlay with the Drowned God too? LOL
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 19, 2015 19:38:48 GMT
Yeah, I know I'm really annoying with my hatred for the so called redemption arch . I hate it,it's so cheesy and overused that I can't stand it, especially after I read so many comments about that, and also because this buggering redemption arch usually leads to heroic death for the person involved. How many films have you seen where this happens? How many books? Why don't people rant about buggering redemption archs for Tyrion, Dany (she had people crucified and other nice things)or Even Arya? I know this is unpopular but Arya is following Sandor's path as a killing machine. She killed people because she was told to do that and she did it. She will grow up one day and then what? Will people condemn her the way they condemn Sandor? Another redemption arch for her? Will she have to stay in a place like the QI,as a septa for ever, in peace until she dies? Would people be happy with this? I know Sandor is no angel but I think he is sorry for his actions and not looking for excuses for everything like Tyrion, for instance. I also dislike the trope of the angelic woman who saves the sinner (man)and he considers her a saint and grovels endlessly at her feet. I don't want Sansa to be a f...ing saint, I want her to be a woman,a flesh and blood woman with flaws and virtues,like everybody else. And I don't believe that Sandor is like some Christian lost soul in purgatory begging for forgiveness whereas Tyrion is nice and he killed Shae because she was a treacherous slut,when he paid her to pretend she loved him and she didn't owe him loyalty, why should she? Bronn left Tyrion to his own devices and this wasn't treason but Shae was a traitor? And what about the people who think what Jaime did to Bran isn't as bad as what Sandor did to Mycah because Bran is alive. How silly is this? Jaime's intention was killing, wasn't it? I'm so sick of that redemtion arch. Arggg. Forgive me, but I just can't.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 19, 2015 20:15:21 GMT
Lol, Katie--very "Clash of the Titans," no?
I respect your opinion, eyesofmist. I too hate the thought of Sansa being a perfect angel who makes the big, bad man behave himself. It's not like that at all. They both have their flaws, and the beauty of it is that they each have strengths that help with the other person's flaws. I love it as a relationship because they are two very flawed, very real people who see each other exactly they way they are. Yes, Sandor may be waxing poetic about the Little Bird and her pretty little song when he's with Arya, but when he's with Sansa, he's very blunt with her: wake up and smell the truth, you're a bad liar, you're naive, you hurt my feelings because you did not say thank you for saving your life (okay, he didn't say that but he MEANT that). Sansa is very aware of how brutal and harsh he is, how scarred and frightening he can be, but she's also thinking about his good advice and those cruel kisses. I always like to remember that Sansa and Sandor have spent a lot of time together while in King's Landing. Even if every interaction is not written out for us, we know because the text has given us evidence that the Kingsguard spend a great deal of time with the King's wife/betrothed. That's why we get stories like Naerys and Prince Aemon. That's why Cersei thinks having a Kettleblack seduce Margaerey is a good idea. Sansa and Sandor must have been around each other often. They know each other very well, I suspect, and they probably talked to each other more often than we see. Martin just gives us the significant conversations.
Sandor is no worse than many characters and a darn sight better than many. I don't know how anyone can say Jaime is better than Sandor because he didn't finish the job with Bran, lol. I mean, he was still trying to murder Bran because he saw Jaime BANGING HIS TWIN SISTER. I love how people like to try to blame the incest on Cersei, as if she seduced poor little Jaime. Sandor killed a 12 year old who, as far as he knew, had attacked the crown prince. This is a medieval world. Sandor's just doing his job--as heinous as it may be, he wasn't trying to murder a kid for kicks and giggles. Jaime pushes a 7-year-old boy, the son of the host family (doesn't this break guest right somehow?), while committing incest. That seems worse to me. Call me judgmental, but hey...
Also, even if we do not consider Shae, Tyrion murdered his father. Sandor talks a big game about wanting to kill his brother, but when he gets an actual chance to do so--in front of the king, defending Loras, so that he probably would have been PRAISED for doing it--he doesn't. He does not even try even though Gregor is not wearing a helmet and even though Gregor is aiming killing blows at Sandor. My own feelings about Tyrion aside, the text is showing us that one man takes vengeance when given the opportunity, but the other does not. Given Martin's themes about mercy, and the idea of mercy runs through Sandor's storyline, I think we can suppose that Sandor is being presented as possessing an honor and nobility and perhaps even a respect for the gods (no kin-slaying, no incest) that other characters do not have. And this would be something he possessed long before he began to have feelings for Sansa. Sansa doesn't change who he is fundamentally, but she does seem to inspire him to try to live by the ideals he already possesses. She's not changing him so much as she brings out what is already good in him. It's the same for her, too. His words and advice help her find her inner strength and survive in King's Landing. It's Sansa's own courage--he doesn't give it to her--but his words help her remember it. It really is a lovely dynamic, and surprisingly healthy!
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Post by katie on Mar 19, 2015 20:39:12 GMT
Exactly what I was thinking, in fact! ;-)
I think it's just another case of semantics. I call it a "redemption arc" because that IS an easily recognizable trope, but for those of us who are willing and able to look at Sandor's storyline a little more closely, we all know that he was redeemable from the start. A deeply flawed, bitter, and traumatized man, yes, but underneath it all, he always had the capacity for kindness and honor, and it took someone like Sansa to inspire that part of himself again. So, maybe it's more of a "rediscovery arc"? LOL
Oh he totally said that, lololol.
This is true. I'd love to headcanon some mundane Sandor-Sansa interactions, LOL.
One of the biggest things that pisses me off about the anti-SanSan Sandor stans is how they seem to think that Sandor having any sort of feelings for Sansa basically "wussifies" him. Like fucking REALLY? The fact that he DOES care about her, that he DOES try to protect her, that he DOES NOT give a shit about her social standing, the he DOES respect her agency, that he DOES NOT try to take advantage of her, and he DOES risk his own neck for her despite her misgivings about him makes him MORE of a Real Man than most of the dudes in this series!!!
Yes, it's the highest irony that Sandor is considered one of the most fearsome killers in the land but he pulls his punches a remarkably frequent amount of times. Everyone thinks of him as this wild, rabid dog, but if that were actually the case, the body count would be SO much higher, starting with Gregor all the way down to the ferryman and the village farmer. Think back on all the people Sandor killed during the course of ASOIAF (not that many to start with) and, with the arguable exception of Mycah, not a one of them wasn't justified.
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 19, 2015 22:06:13 GMT
We agree about Sandor,girls, forgive me for ranting like crazy,please . It's just that I am alergic to that expession, redemption arch but it's probably because I'm sick of reading that Tyrion was nice to Sansa whereas Sandor was abusive and horrible to her. But it was Tyrion who married her against her will and kept her captive. I don't buy that he was forced to marry her and forced to rape Tysha. They say he helped her but what he did meant no risk for him. On the other hand, some say Sandor is horrible to Sansa but he risked his own life to save hers and that is f--- ing sublime,wonderful. All the rest, including Tyrion abandoned her in that riot. Sandor was mean, his words were mean, but his actions were beautiful. Those gentle hands of his when he dealt with her constrast dramatically with his harsh words but actions speak louder than words. He may have snarled but he treated her well, except when he drew his knife on her during the BoBW. This is the meata I wrote about the burning of the Seven
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