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Post by katie on Mar 19, 2015 22:38:28 GMT
UGH. Yes, Tyrion was "nice" to her, but that's so.... hollow. He felt sorry for her at best, and the fact that he didn't rape her on her wedding night is nothing to get a medal for, sorry. Do people not understand that he COULD HAVE SAID NO??? Tywin gives him an out -- TWICE. The first time, when he first brings up the marriage, he ACTUALLY says that if Tyrion refuses, he'll just marry him off to some other (less pretty) girl from a smaller (less powerful) house and then marry Sansa to Lancel instead. But no, Tyrion is too seduced by the idea of marrying the most eligible maiden in the land with one of the most coveted claims. He didn't want Sansa -- he wanted her sweet young body and Winterfell. And he justifies it in his mind as him doing her a favor by sparing her a worse fate... Like, okay, whatever you need to tell youself, dude. The second time Tywin gives Tyrion an out is after the wedding and he reminds Tyrion that non-consummation is grounds for annulment. He's basically saying, if you don't do it, we'll call it off and someone else will. And again, Tyrion blows him off and goes on his merry way convincing himself that Sansa will just HAVE to give in to him eventually. Ick. Not to mention the fact that something like FOUR WHOLE DAYS pass between Tywin's announcement and the actual wedding... 4 days in which Tyrion could have given Sansa a heads up, but NO. He allows Cersei to just spring it on her the morning of. Oh but Shae, a serving girl, Ser Tallad, and possibly even Lollys knew about the marriage before even Sansa did. UHHHHH.... And then Tyrion actually has the fucking nerve to ask Sansa if she wants to call the whole thing off WHILE THEY'RE ALREADY IN THE SEPT. With Cersei and Joffrey standing there like two feet away!!! Are you fucking serious, dude?? What do you really expect her to say?? So yeah, can we all just stop making excuses for Tyrion and just admit that he was being a greedy little bastard and wanted Sansa because she was pretty and a daughter of Winterfell? Please and thank you. "But he was the one who told Joffrey they needed to go back for her!" Yes, out of the goodness of his heart. Please. She was a HOSTAGE, and her death meant Jaime's possibly death, nothing more. It was Jaime that Tyrion was thinking of in those moments, not Sansa. And while I don't necessarily blame Tyrion for that (if I had to make that choice, I'd probably go with my own brother too), but don't use that as an argument against Sandor, the one who actually went out there and risked his life to save her FOR NO PERSONAL GAIN OF HIS OWN. [drops mic]
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 19, 2015 22:58:28 GMT
For no personal gain AND he abandoned his king!! He abandoned his post, technically. That is his job--to protect the king. If he were just doing his duty, he'd have gone right back for Joffrey after things got ugly. He did not. He went straight for Sansa. He risked his life AND he risked being called out for abandoning Joffrey. It's another clever little trick GRRM does to prevent Sandor from really showing his hand. He has Joffrey order Sandor to get the guy who threw the manure, so Sandor's choice to go to Sansa is unnoticed. Granted, the riot may not have started if Joffrey did not sic the Hound on the peasants, but even so, much like not knowing what would happen after Sandor says, "Enough!" GRRM manipulates the plot so the Hound's heart is not revealed to others even though the actions are all there.
Yes to everything you all have said about Tyrion. I don't even know that I would mind him as a character if everyone did not defend him all the time. Add to your list the fact that during Joffrey's wedding celebrations he ruminates about taking Sansa's maidenhead, thinking that she'd be dutiful and cry no more than necessary...so gross.
To bring this back to the gods' influence on this pairing, what do you make of the fact that the fat, hypocritical High Septon is torn apart at the same time Sandor is saving Sansa? Significant? Or just necessary death to bring in the new High Septon and the warriors of the Faith?
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Post by katie on Mar 19, 2015 23:11:31 GMT
Which is why it's gonna be HILARIOUS when GRRM finally does pull the trigger on SanSan and all the haters are gonna be like.... "oh, didn't see that coming." Ya don't say??? ;-) As for abandoning the king, this is another reason I like the show-version of this event, because you ACTUALLY SEE Sandor hand off Joffrey to another KG and then turn around and go back into the fray. But it's played and edited so subtly that you don't realize in the moment that the reason he is going back is for Sansa! And you know, the sad thing is, he's probably 100% correct. She probably would have tried to be the perfect little wife and not give him too much trouble as he forced himself on her. Could be, because it seems like the version of the Faith that both Sansa and Sandor are exposed to and/or believe in is a lot "purer" than the bells and whistles put on by the High Septon and the posers in KL. Sansa does enjoy the ceremony of it, but she really does believe that the gods are real. Likewise, Elder Bro and his posse seem like they have a lot more genuine reverence for the Faith and don't go in for the flash and pomp, which I am sure Sandor appreciates. I mean, if he has to be stuck on an island with a bunch of religious dudes, they might as well be humble ones!
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 19, 2015 23:43:08 GMT
Tyrion told somebody else to risk his neck but rode away as fast he could, how gallant is that? I understand what he did as it was a human reaction and he would stand zero chances to survive in the middle of that crowd. I can forgive him for that but I hate it when people don't realise the magnitude of what Sandor did. George makes it clear that was damn dangerous and Sandor acted like a hero there. Tyrion didn't. Tyrion was never heroic around Sansa. He stopped her beating once but at was risk? None because he was the Hand. For Sandor to say "enough" was outrageous behaviour coming from a sworn shield towards his master. He was playing with fire.
I don't even find Tyrion was really nice to Sansa. And what about making Shae, his lover, her maid? How nasty is that move from all accounts. There is something I really dislike and it's that he wanted to steal he songs from her because he thought the made no good to her. I wonder why he felt entitled to decide what was good or bad for her. He is incredibly mysogynistic.
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 19, 2015 23:53:54 GMT
The fat high septon could represent those people who send men like Sandor to do their dirty work and then despise them because their hands are dirty. Perhaps I don't like that idea of redemption because I am not a religious person. That may be the reason,but it doesn't bother me that Sansa, Septon Meribald or EB are religuous because they aren't judgamental,they are understanding and kind. I seem to have a dislike for self-righteous people who think they have the right to condemn others. Ned executed people but he didn't seen self-righteous though Sandor thought he was.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 20, 2015 7:22:28 GMT
Eyesofmist, you know I agree with you about Tyrion. And making Shae her maid was wrong on so many levels--it was cruel to Shae--she chose to be a whore because she was pretty, because she felt she had a chance to have the silks and jewels and life of ease that she wanted. Doesn't she even tell Tyrion that she doesn't want to lose her looks by doing kitchen labor and such? It's a double blow for her because she has to be a maid AND Tyrion's whore. I don't blame her for her "betrayal" at all. Tyrion "betrayed" her, if you look at it this way. He did not care what she wanted, just as he does not care what Sansa truly wants. Sansa is no more than a pretty girl with a claim. I've never understood this idea that they have an understanding or a developing friendship. Sansa was nothing but a prop in his fantasy, and she knew it. He did not know anything about her and did not share anything about who he really was. She was willing to play the obedient wife to him, but she wasn't going to pretend it wasn't anything but duty. I think that's why Tyrion grew angry with her. It's rather ironic that he claims she doesn't need anymore songs when he's the one asking her to indulge in fantasy and pretend he's the Knight of Flowers. Compare that to Sandor who says he wants a song, but everything he does with Sansa opens her eyes to the truth--you're a bad liar, they're all liars, look at me, true knights don't exist, and so on. I also agree with the disdain for hypocrisy and I like the fact that Martin does deal with this issue in his works. I am a religious person and think I have quite a strong faith in God, but not so much in people who use religion to gain power or hurt others. I am sickened by hypocrites, and I try very much to be a Sansa and not a High Septon (please call me out if I'm not!). I think the religious connections are fascinating though more on a literary or psychological level rather than spiritual. I don't think you can take Martin's works and read them as religious treatise or anything, but I agree with his criticism of organized religion as revealed through characters like the High Septon and the nasty Septas who shave Cersei and "counsel" her while she's imprisoned. I can see how Ned could be seen as self-righteous if you did not know him, but I think the difference is that he truly tries to show mercy and that he holds himself to high standards as well. I generally get the sense that Ned holds himself to the highest standards of all, so while Jaime may feel that Ned would not give him a chance to explain himself (did Jaime even try?), Ned is very forgiving. Let's take Sandor's impression that Ned is self-righteous, looking down on him (I feel like Sandor was looking down on himself for all he'd done. He's his worst critic in some ways), but we know that Ned was watching Sandor carefully during the tourney and saw him behave honorably, reflected on his family history, too. He sees the nobility of Sandor's actions. It's been mentioned many times before that Ned, though he condemns Cersei, gives her the chance to save herself and her children. Some call this action stupid, but how loving and merciful it actually is. I sometimes also wonder if Ned was having second thoughts about those men he beheaded fleeing the Wall. We're told in the text that there had been many of them lately. Cat finds him in the godswood after the fact, which implies to me that 1. he took his role as a figure of justice very seriously, considering it sacred and 2. he was disturbed by what he had to do and sought his gods for comfort. He doesn't take pleasure in the justice he dispenses. Ned's honor does not come easily, either. He suffers for it. Look at his interactions with Cat when he's trying to be "selfish" and not accept the Hand position. He doesn't want it. He wants to stay at home with his family. He doesn't want to betroth his 11 year old girl to Joffrey. He does it though because Cat and Maester Luwin counsel him. He keeps honor and duty above his own personal wants. However, when it seems that his honor might get his daughter killed, he renounces it quickly enough. Ned died on the steps Baelor's Sept. I love finding the religious images in Sansa and Sandor's relationship (because I think it lends support that they are endgame, heehee), but the religious imagery associated with Ned is so transparent on the re-read--call him the Christ figure or sacrificial figure, however you want to see it, but Ned was a man of love and honor, who gave mercy to those who maybe did not deserve it. You have him paraphrase Christ's "Father, take this cup from me" when he said to Cat: We also have his garden of Gethsemane moment when he takes Arya and Sansa to the godswood to pray and give thanks through the night for Bran's survival. Sansa and then Arya fall asleep, leaving him alone in his meditations. To tie this back to Sansa and Sandor, she, like Ned, also dispenses mercy, has a belief in the gods and certain ideals even as she becomes more aware that the world is awful and flawed, but without the ideals, without belief in something, how easy it is to become a bitter, hurting, hateful person like the Hound. To me, one of the things that is so beautiful about the BoBW scene is that Sansa not only gives the mercy, but Sandor accepts it. In accepting her mercy, he has to admit what he is--a killer, a brute, a "gutless fraud" who let a little girl be beaten and abused in his presence, who threatens her and holds knife to her throat--he has to come face to face with the "heart of darkness," eh? He confesses this to Arya. He has to admit that while these things are part of him (and always will be), he should try to be better than that. Think of Septon Meribald and his blackened, calloused feet. He admits that he took advantage of many girls, using religious texts to woo them to bed, but he moves one, knows that it is not right and finds a better way to live, but he keeps his feet bare and dirty and black to remind himself of that darkness within. You can only combat the darkness if you admit it's there. Otherwise, you blind yourself with your incense and your jewels and your songs and the prayers, like those hypocritical Septons and Septas. For Martin, I don't think it's so much about accepting God or the gods as much as it is about being honest about the darkness that lives within us all and then making that conscious effort to do better, to accept that the mercy is there for the taking, but to have it, you have to admit you need it. This is why I wonder about Jaime's "redemption" and how sincere it is. Jaime is trying to live by the chivalric system he stopped believing in but which Brienne has rekindled for him. The problem I see with Jaime is that while he lives with his "sins" known to all, everyone knows he is a kingslayer and it's not exactly a secret that he is Cersei's lover, he does not quite admit that he thinks these things are bad. It strikes me more that Jaime is not particularly sorry he did the things he did, but he really does not like the consequences, does not like that people look down on him for it, so for me, his quest for Sansa, to clear his name rings a bit hollow. Even his love for Brienne, which could be a redemptive force, still seems more of an idealization of her chivalry than loving her for herself (though I think that aspect is there too).
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Post by katie on Mar 20, 2015 17:44:17 GMT
I'm not religious at all, but I don't consider myself an atheist either -- I believe in higher forces but not in deities. At any rate, I do love the way GRRM handles religion in this series. It just feels very authentic, and in the context of a fantasy story, I can easily suspend my disbelief. What he seems to be saying, IMO, is that there IS magic out there, the gods ARE real, but too many people out there abuse those belief systems and twist and morph them to their own selfish ends. Which, let's be real, happens ALL the time in our world too, doesn't it? The Faith reminds me a lot of he Catholic Church (which is what I was raised in), while the old gods are clearly an homage to early paganism (which I am more inclined toward); like I said somewhere else before, when I was little, I believed that ALL religions were real and that your divine fate rested in your own personal belief system, and it's funny that GRRM seems to be toying with this idea as well -- ALL the religions are legit, to an extent, but they are being channeled and filtered through deeply flawed human beings, and we all know how messy that can be... ;-) Replace the bold words above with "daughter" and "her father", and gee, I'm starting to see a pattern here. So, I guess if we can glean anything "good" from Sansa's experience with Tyrion, it helped prepare her for her current situation with LF -- doing her duty and playing the game well enough to be convincing to outsiders but making it clear (via her body language) that it IS just a game. Regarding Ned, it always makes me smirk to hear people talk about how much Sansa is like Cat, but I think she's more like Ned. Yes, she has the Tully Look, but she has the Stark Honor. She takes no pleasure in death or deception and she always tries to do the right thing. Yes, she has her courtesies, but it's also a form of tact. She doesn't like to hurt people's feelings, even when they have hurt hers. Remember on Maegor's Rooftop when Sandor was egging her on about Ned (amongst other things)? Moments later, Sansa considers making a jab at HIS sore spot, AKA Gregor, but thinks better of it. She could have hit him right where it hurts too, but she restrained herself. Because she knows it's unkind, and even though she sasses back to Sandor quite often, she is never unkind. Even in her very first chapter in AGOT, she thinks something rather mean in her head but doesn't say it out loud because she knows it would be hurtful. That's some pretty mature thinking for a pre-teen, ya know? LOL. Anyway, my point being, I think she is more of her father's daughter than people think. As for Shae and Tyrion... I don't much care for Shae either, I kinda thought they deserved each other, LOL.
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 20, 2015 20:12:02 GMT
I agree with Katie that Sansa is very much like Ned. The people who say she is like Cat aren't paying enough attention to her, they don't get her character. She is like Ned:idealistic, honourable and compassionate. I'm not saying Cat is not honourable,but she isn't as idealistic as Ned and Sansa, she tends to be more pragmatic and with a better understanding of human flaws and intrigues. Sansa and Ned are so idealistic and so prone to seeing the good side in everybody,so compassionate,that they may be too good for the tumultuous days they have to live. Some say they are stupid and but I don't agree, I think that if there were more men like Ned and fewer like Tywin or Littlefinger the world would be a much better place.
As for Sansa, I don't like her meekness all that much but she is a good person at heart and not stupid at all. She trusted the people she was supposed to trust. It was her parents' mistake to have her betrothed to Joffrey, this put her in a vulnerable position because she would have to live surrounded by Lannisters in the future. How can anyone expect her not to take their side if she was going to become one of them and she wasn't independent and free to do as she pleased like a modern woman? Her parents' decision made her dependent on the Lannisters for everything. She only did what she thought was right and she couldn't risk gaining Joff's animosity if she was going to become his wife. They left her in his hands, completely helpless.
I don't like Shae either, in fact I dislike her very much but this has nothing to do with the horror of what Tyrion did to her. If the victim is a bad person this doesn't make murder less disgusting and horrible or the killer less guilty . Shae is portrayed in an extremely unfavourable light to make some people think Tyrion is not evil in spite of killing her out of spite, jealousy,insecurity and mysoginy,that she deserved what she got. I don't agree, perhaps they deserved each other, I agree with that but this balance breaks when he kills her because she didn't kill him,it was him that killed her and that can't be excused, not in my view. I can't excuse how he killed his father either.
Tywin was a horrible man but it didn't bother Tyrion much as he took part in his intrigues and was very happy to spend his money and make the most of the privileges he had for being his son. What bothered him was the kind of father Tywin was,so abusive and cold. Tyrion didn't care how abusive Tywin was towards others, it only bothered him when he was the one who suffered his callousness and lack of affection. I don't even think Tywin treated Tyrion worse than Cersei because he treated both like shit, one because she was a woman and the other because he was a dwarf. What is worse? Both things are disgusting but later Cersei and Tyrion were abusive to others and they took other people's lives. They are both bad people, that's how I see it. I Cersei worse than Tyrion? Probably, but this doesn't make Tyrion a good man. Ned was a good man, Tyrion isn't.
George is very smart and made Tyrion the killer of a singer he found threatening for his status, he also killed a woman who supposedly betrayed him (as if she owed him anything!)and a horrible father. Someone unimportant and two others people find disgusting so that people would still say the imp is a nice and good person. Perhaps my definition of nice is a bit different from many other readers' because I don't find him nice at all. Witty, smart and funny he is,but a good person, he is not.
He doesn't have to be a good "person" to be a good character though. I enyoyed all his chapters in the first three books a great deal and I empathised with him but after he killed his father and Shae and married poor Sansa against her will I couldn't like him any more. His self-pity feels too much too me as well because he is privileged when compared to most people in his world. Poor Penny is good-natured and kind despite the hard life she's had. Tyrion got bad cards in life but others were dealt much worse.
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