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Post by katie on Mar 21, 2015 23:05:01 GMT
From ASoS, Arya XII:
I'm curious to know what you guys make of this. 4 times within the same chapter -- within 2 pages, to be exact -- there are references to Sandor "losing his belly for fighting." In particular, it's something that Arya admits she has thought about quite a bit, and in fact she thinks this must be why he bailed at the Twins. And then when she finally brings it up to him, he seems almost offended.
Is there something more here we should be paying attention to? Or is this Arya just unable to reconcile the fact that Sandor chose to save her life rather than leave her there to die and/or stay and fight and probably die himself? Arya is so used to being left behind, especially by people she cares about (and whom she thought cared about her too), that she probably can't wrap her head around why Sandor, of all people, would have chosen to save her life and leave than abandon her too, like everyone else has.
Another interesting passage, which may or may not pertain (from ASoS, Arya IX):
I always smirk at that line in bold, cuz it's like... uhhhh that's an understatement! Ha! This line could be interpreted multiple ways, and one of those is Sandor vaguely inferring that Sansa is one of, if not the biggest, reasons he's doing all this for Arya in the first place. I mean, look -- he says he wants to ransom her, but he also wants to join Robb's cause. What does he need a ransom for if he can get a position in the Stark army? Seems like the ransom is more of the Plan B and joining Robb is Plan A. And why would he want to join Robb in the first place? Because he hates the Lannisters THAT much? The family that employed him for over half his life? I think he was kind of done with the Lannisters; he didn't want to fight for them, but I don't think he had much of a desire to fight against them either, otherwise he could have just surrendered his sword to Stannis at the BoBW. (That might seem like a longshot, but so was thinking Robb would take him in, LOL.) So, I don't think he lost his belly for fighting; I think he lost his belly for war. And the only reason he wanted to join Robb was because he saw a chance to redeem himself in Sansa's eyes -- "rescue" her long-lost sister and gallantly march back into KL at her brother's side and rescue her too, for reals this time... like a "true knight". ;-)
Anyway, my long-winded point being, perhaps the issue of Sandor "losing his belly for fighting" is merely Arya's inability to understand why he is keeping her around, and why he chose saving her over fighting at the Twins. And, obviously, Sandor is never going to tell her the REAL reason. (It's possible he may not fully understand it himself.)
What do you guys think?
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 22, 2015 15:57:44 GMT
I really briefly touched upon that line in one of my many verbose metas. I like your interpretation as him losing his belly for war--meainingless, destructive war. He'll fight and keep his sword sharp to save something he cares about, or at least to save someone FOR the person he cares about.
Arya and the elder say he's lost his belly for fighting, but Sandor when he finally addresses it with Arya says "there's nothing wrong with my belly." When he says this, there are a couple of things going on: they are talking about Sansa and he's roasting a rabbit for them to eat. Arya thinks he going to hit her but then the rabbit is done and he turns to that and divides it with her.
There isn't anything wrong with his belly. He's hungry, hungry for so much more than death and destruction. He's cooking for him and Arya, so domestic and fatherly, roasting that rabbit to share. He tells Arya she doesn't know half as much as she thinks she does regarding Sansa. He's hungry for love. There's nothing wrong with his belly. He wants to be filled with something good and wholesome.
So, I agree with this interpretation that he's not frightened of battle, but he's no longer willing to fight without meaning. He wants to build, to eat, to love. He'll fight for those things but not for a lord who treats him like an animal.
And because of who I am, that sword sharpening is phallic. He's bursting at the seams with frustration and love. He wants to use his "sword," not just his sword--and I'm only partly joking here. I think Sandor wants life and love and family, but people mock him for wanting to turn away from senseless war.
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Post by katie on Mar 22, 2015 20:05:26 GMT
Yes. I have heard it suggested that Sandor would have saved Arya regardless of her relation to Sansa... out of the goodness of his heart?? Ehhhh... I don't think so. Sandor is a good guy, but he's not a saint, and he's not gonna bother to stick his neck out for just anyone. And there's really no textual evidence to support this alleged altruism. The only people we see him go out of his way to protect aside from Sansa are people directly associated with Sansa -- Arya, Jeyne Poole, and Loras Tyrell. Other than that? Nope. Remember his response when Lady Tanda asked about Lollys after the Bread Riot? His response was basically, "Sorry, not my problem." So, while Sandor does have more honor than most, he's pretty picky about it, LOL.
But that's okay, because I think we can all agree that Sansa is well worth fighting for. ;-)
And again, this circles back to his actions at the Twins. He caught on to what was happening pretty damn quick, he knew it was a lost cause, and he knew it was pointless to stay. So, best to just get Arya and himself the fuck out of there to safety.
Hahaha, I'm laughing at this because I deliberately left out the rabbit stuff when I quoted the passage because I didn't think it was relevant, but a little voice in the back of my head kept saying, "well, maybe I should leave it in because sillierthings will probably find some meaning in it", LOL! ;-)
One could also say that he hasn't lost his belly for survival. Right up until the end, he fought. He has a very keen survival instinct that I think was instilled in him very very early on. It reminds me of the dying man on the TV show that he gives the gift of mercy to -- Arya asks him, "Why go on?" And the man responds, "Habit." I think this can be applied to Sandor too. He doesn't know how NOT to keep going, until he is literally falling off his horse and bleeding to death.
But going back to the scene in question, it's interesting because at this point in the story, he doesn't yet know that Sansa was married to Tyrion and that she escaped from KL, so he is of the mindset that she is still there... And it doesn't seem like he is aware that Joffrey set her aside for Margaery, so he is probably assuming that things are just the way he left them. He's holding out hope on his new plan, of getting Arya to the Blackfish at Riverrun. There is still hope. It's not until the inn, when he finds out that Sansa is gone and that Riverrun is under siege that he seems to become truly aimless.
Incidentally, when he says "well good for her", I feel like he's only half-sincere. I think he really is glad she got the hell out, but at the same time, he's sort of lost her for good. She's gone from King's Landing, but she's gone from him as well. Bittersweet sentiments.
Natch! ;-)
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 22, 2015 20:53:43 GMT
I agree that he hasn't lost his belly for fighting, he only realised that his liege lords,the ones he had been completely loyal, even loyal to a fault for most of his life,because he came to them when he was still a kid,didn't deserve his loyalty and that laying his life for them was something he wouldn't do now. He would do it for Sansa but not for them.
The Lannister who shows more clearly how little they value Sandor is Tyrion, he is the one to send him twice to fight in the middle of fire: first in Flea Bottom during the riot, after he brought Sansa back, and later during the BoBW. How fair is it to send a man who has just come back with a valuable hostage back to FB where the fires where still burning and the people still furious. Why didn't he send other KGs? Tywin thinks of Sandor as a dog, which is disgusting, but it's Tyrion that shows his demeaning treatment of him more clearly.
I don't think he lost his courage, I think he wants to be his own dog now, as he himself says, and that it was Sansa that made him question his status and the way people treated him. She made him see that he IS a man and sending him to fight in the middle fo greenfire or telling him to kill children and women,and who know how many other things the Lannisters told him to do was something he didn't want to do any more,and that he could refuse to do it, and that's what he did.
I think (although I may be wrong) that he deserted because he was fed up,not because he couldn't face it. Of course he was horrified and traumatised but I guess he lived in that state most of his life. He found the courage to say no because Sansa changed his life and gave him a reason to live, really live,not just survive another miserable day.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 22, 2015 22:12:08 GMT
It makes sense that he's become his own man, willing to fight but only on his terms because Sansa reminded him that he is a man (Why do you let everyone call you dog?). And eyesofmist brings up a good point re: Tywin and Tyrion. Tywin is Sandor's master, of course, and he treats him as a dog, but how much to we see Tywin interact w/ Sandor? Not at all. To my memory, he only mentions Sandor once when he's tetchy that Cersei made Sandor a member of the Kingsguard. Tyrion is the one Lannister besides Joffrey, who has the most interaction with Sandor in the texts, and he does treat him like a dog, something to be used and ordered about. Joffrey does it too, of course, but at least he's king and there is some kind of hero worship/father figure business going on there--Joffrey knows not to push Sandor too far generally. I mean, why else does Joffrey not ask the Hound to beat Sansa? And the one time he does order the Hound to do so, there is that oh so convenient distraction so that we do not see what the Hound would have done...
We know Jaime thinks of him by his first name and generally has a sense of Sandor's honor--not saying he's best friends with him or anything, but he seems to think of him as a human being at least. Cersei doesn't really seem to think about the Hound, but she trusts her son with him. Later, she thinks about how Joff looked up to him.
Point being, the hatred for Tyrion may be a lot more cut and dry than we think. He hates Tyrion because Tyrion really does think of him as Twyin's dog. Not saying that Sandor doesn't miss a chance to insult Tyrion, of course, but Tyrion is the son of his master, and he does have the upper hand over Sandor.
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 22, 2015 23:45:42 GMT
Yes, Twyin does have that incredibly demeaning opinion of Sandor,he compares him with a dog,but we never see him treat him badly. As for Joff,he calls Sandor "dog" but he is a kid,a horrible one but still a kid and he also jokes around with Sandor and pays attention to his advice (remember how Sansa and Sandor saved Dontos's life).
Cersei and Joff make him a KG and as far as we know, neither Cersei nor Jaime treat him as badly as Tyrion. He sends him back to Flea Botton when he has just come back with Sansa after escaping a raging mob. He should have let him have a rest and send someone else. That would have been the righ thing to do, the guy needed a respite. During the BoBW Sandor lead several sorties,boarded an enemy ship and fought with bravery, Tyrion knew his men followed him,that he was valuable, but he also noticed he was dead on his feet,using Tyrion's words,that he was horrified by the fire. However he pushed him ever further,until he broke and deserted.
Sandor has good reasons to hate Tyrion,I think,and he may have more,like knowing about Tysha's rape.
I wonder what it takes for a reader to change his/her mind about a character, I mean, Tyrion is presented in a sympathetic light but later on his actions turn villainous. Jaime is the opposite, as he is presented as a villain who attempts to kill a child but later becomes more sympathetic. So I wonder how this works for people,because if Tyrion hadn't been initially shown making friends with the Starks and mistreated by Tywin and Cersei, readers wouldn't find excuses so quicly for many of the things he does.
I really wonder what George has in mind for Tyrion,if he is supposed to be a villain or a hero. At first I thought this series wasn't about that,that there would be no villains or heroes but now I know better. This story is written in a quite traditional way and there are heroes and villains,albeit imperfect. Nothing is black or white but greyish to some extent.
In this sense,Tyrion is a mystery to me, I don't know what George's intentios for this character are.
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Post by katie on Mar 23, 2015 3:34:41 GMT
I've always been so so so curious about the nature of the relationship between Sandor and Cersei. He was her sworn shield before Joffrey's, and it's even stated that he's more "the queen's dog" than Joff's. Both Robert and Tyrion make passing references to the fact that Sandor would "check in" with Cersei regularly. Yet we never see any actual interactions between them, Sandor never talks about her, and Cersei barely thinks or speaks about him at all except to say that Joff looked up to him, Tommen was scared of him, and that she would have elevated him to master-at-arms if he hadn't "gone rabid" (suggesting she at least thought highly of his militarial acumen). It's so strange how little we know of that relationship even though they would have been close, at least on a "professional" level, for several years...
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 23, 2015 3:55:50 GMT
Cersei is a complete narcissist though--I don't think she does think about much other than her own wants and desires. I got the impression that she did think well enough of him because he was good at his job, and that benefited her. She did love Joffrey and since Joff seemed fine with him--eh, all is good. What I really wonder is how much is Sandor's disgust with "chirping" and "false courtesies" comes from watching Cersei interact with people. Courtly life in general would wear someone like Sandor down, I imagine, but being around Cersei would make it worse, wouldn't it?
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Post by katie on Mar 23, 2015 6:04:10 GMT
I think it was a combo. I think he WAS terrified and traumatized by the fire, but he also realized that it was no longer worth it to put himself through that bullshit for people who couldn't give an actual crap if he lived or died. Perhaps he never considered that he had a CHOICE before; his father wanted a knight in the family so bad that he was willing to overlook Gregor's abuse of his own brother. From an early age, Sandor's feelings just didn't matter. No wonder he, as Elder Bro said, found no joy in service. It was just something that was expected of him. "Suck it up, dog, and FIGHT." Then Sansa comes along, the first person to even suggest that he stand up for himself ("Why do you let people call you a dog?"), and probably the first person to ever openly take his side against Gregor ("He was no true knight").
Funny you should say that, because I had a dream once where Sandor told Sansa, amidst his other advice to her, that he didn't want to see her become like Cersei. Of course that's not actually in the text, but I can see where that might be a legitimate concern of his. And for us too! But time and again we have seen Sansa act as somewhat of a foil for Cersei -- she sees how Cersei operates and hears the awful advice she gives her, and she seems to automatically reject it for herself. Case in point, during the BoBW when Sansa thinks to herself that, if she were queen, she would make people love her, instead of fear her like Cersei does. And then later, when Cersei tells Sansa to learn how to use the "weapon" between her legs, Sansa actually does the exact opposite later that night when a drunk, traumatized man has her pinned down to her bed. Sansa's "weapon" (for lack of a better term) is her compassion, not her sexuality. (YOU LISTENING, D&D? NO OF COURSE NOT.)
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 23, 2015 13:34:17 GMT
Sandor's life story in itself could make a fascinating novel, from the terror of Clegane Household with a monster like Gregor making life a continous threat and fright,to the tragic horror of Sandor's disfigurement, all that pain and feeling of neglect when his father didn't punish his brother. He suggests his wounds weren't even treated the right way because only ointments were applied to them. Then the mystery of what happened to his father,mother and sister, or to all those wives and servants who simply disappeared without anyone doing anything about it. Then his escape and why his father died, if Sandor knows what happened and keeps silent about it. How did he join the Lannisters? What did he say to be accepted? What was the reaction to his disfigurement and how he managed to be allowed near the royal children and the court, with those gruesome scarring on his face?
Let's face it, in a violent world like theirs there must be a lot of people maimed and with nasty scars but why having someone like Sandor at court,so near the children and the ladies? Not a nice sight those scars of his. So he must have been really valuable to look past his disagreeable looks and have him around the royals. As you have said,Cersei is narcissistic and pays too much attention to looks and appearances. I wonder how she treated Sandor at first when he was still an awkward kid and how she came to trust him near her and her children. How would she look on him? Would she "chirp" kind words while she cringed and he noticed it, or would she be cruel,like she is towards Tyrion? What did Sandor think of that beautiful creature, so different from himself when he first saw her? How did the other squires and soldiers treat him? Did he ever have friends or was he a loner?
His relationship with Cersei must have been very important to conform his idea of femininity,because from a very early age he lived in a men alone world and she must have seemed alien and nearly otherwordly to him as he grew up. He probably was a shocked as Sansa when he witnessed what she really was like. He must know how cruel she is and what kind of things he did.
And he was there,keeping silent while very important things happened, so he could tell incredible stories to whomever wanted to hear them. It's a pity we have spent so much time reading repetitive situations with Dany in Mereen and all those other places whose names I can't remember
but we'll never know what KL was like before the Starks arrived or what happened ant Clegane Keep. However,this was impossible because the plot must follow a timeline. I keep wondering ,anyway.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 23, 2015 13:55:40 GMT
That's why it's curious to me that GRRM makes a point to have Joffrey say that the Hound is really Cersei's "dog." Tyrion wants to get Joffrey a whore, but he's worried the Hound will tell Cersei. Why doesn't Joffrey order the Hound around as much? Because (among other valid reasons) the Hound belongs to his mother, not him. Sansa is the anti-Cersei, so when Sandor takes off, he's choosing Sansa over Cersei--not Sansa over Joffrey. I also wonder if we can see a parallel between Arya and Joffrey at this point, too. When Cersei is his mistress, the Hound puts up with Joffrey. When he falls for Sansa, he takes care of Arya. There is even the exchange of champions, if you will. Sansa gets Sandor, and Cersei now has Gregor, "Ser Robert Strong." I cannot help but think that Sansa and Cersei are going to meet again. Ser Shadrack, the mad mouse, is in the Vale. In Sansa's final chapter of AFFC, she meets him face to face. I'm assuming that he's going to report straight back to King's Landing that he's found Sansa Stark and would like his reward, please. Will Sansa end up back in King's Landing? Will Ser Robert Strong come to the Vale? I feel like narratively, Sansa will have another interaction with Cersei, and if Ser Robert Strong is involved, Sandor must be as well, right? It's curious too, that in Brienne's adventuring, she encounters both the Mad Mouse--looking for Sansa and the Elder Brother--hiding Sandor. Is she the link that will bring them together? I agree that I want so much to hear about Sandor's story. What does he know? What could he bring to the plot? I, like you eyesofmist, am so bored with Dany's plotline. And Tyrion's. The characters I'm really interested in have been at a standstill for over a decade. I don't know how those of you who have been reading the books since the beginning can stand it. No, they are not listening. They are thinking, she's 18!!! We can show her tits! That's what strong women do! How can a woman be strong without abusing her sexuality? She can't!!! Unless you are mean to men, and use sex to manipulate and abuse them, you are not a strong woman. Sorry, ladies   |
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Post by katie on Mar 23, 2015 15:04:46 GMT
I think the scars actually HELPED him win his position with the Lannisters. First of all, Sandor suggests that, even though his father told everyone that his bedding caught fire, other people have circulated their own rumors about what happened, including dragonfire (which is pretty dumb since dragons had been extinct for centuries at the time). Also, Sandor killed his first man at 12, which is when he joined the Lannisters' service. He proved himself pretty quickly, while still a freaking pre-teen. So that, coupled with scars that made him look terrifying, was probably an attractive quality to Tywin and Cersei -- don't mess with me, I got this ugly, scarred dog to protect me, LOL! Reminds me of when I was in college, my uncle had a rottweiler named Lexi. She only had three legs, because her previous owner had had her chained up by her back leg and it eventually became infected and had to be removed. As a result, she was actually a very meek, shy dog, but she was still a freaking rottweiler, and somehow the injury made her look more fierce. So, whenever we would babysit her, I would take her on walks with me, and I would feel like such a badass and knew no one would mess with me (even though I knew she wouldn't harm a fly! LOL). So yeah, Cersei is indeed all about appearances, but I think Sandor's scars were an advantage in this case. Oh yes, I am sure he could tell LOTS of stories. I'm pretty sure he knew the truth of Joffrey's parentage as well. Could be another reason he abandoned the BoBW; why fight a war for a someone who wasn't even the rightful king?? Could also be what Sandor meant when he told Arya that Robb "needed" him. Oh the secrets he could have shared! You're right, it is a shame we'll never know. Or will we...  Sandor is still alive, he still has his secrets; they may yet come into play... Oh gawd, those chapters are fucking TORTURE. I dunno how the Mad Mouse would know Alayne is Sansa though. But yeah, I have heard that theory that Cersei finds out that Sansa is in the Vale and sends UnGregor after her, and that's what prompts Sandor out of hiding. (So, SanSans get their reunion, and fanboys get their Cleganebowl... a two-for-one special!) But again, how would he know about that if EB keeps news from the outside to himself, and how would he even know that Ser Robert Strong is Gregor? But I do feel like, if Sansa does indeed end up in KL again, it will have something to do with Sandor. Sandor is still a wanted man, both for deserting and for Saltpans. If they should somehow end up capturing him and bringing him back to face a trial, I could see Sansa wanting to be there to try to help him, especially regarding the BoBW. She was the last person who saw him before he left, after all... (oh my, maybe THAT is where the UnKiss becomes "important".... She testifies at his trial and tells the entire court and everyone listening that he kissed her! SCANDALOUS!! LOL! Okay, getting a little cracky, sorry...) I feel like they have to! Too many overlaps... And besides, Brienne is the FIRST PERSON in this entire ding-dang story to associate Sansa and the Hound together (by mistakingly thinking that Sansa is the Stark girl that the Hound had kidnapped). Congrats, Brienne, you've managed to do something even Littlefinger, Varys, and Tyrion couldn't! LOL |
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 24, 2015 2:18:37 GMT
Yeah, Brienne figures it out--by accident. LOL. Oh, Brienne, so close yet so far. I don't know about Ser Shadrich (and I see I misspelled his name above, alas). Shadrich says the following when Alayne comes in and Ser Byron comments that Petyr did not tell them that his daughter was beautiful.
His smile is "wry"--which could just mean a lopsided smile, but it has connotations of being ironic or deceitful. We know he was looking for Sansa and now he sees her face to face and gives a teasing smile. I think he knows.
By the way, I love that the "elegant young knight whose thick blond mane cascaded down well past his shoulders" and who "kissed [Alayne's] hand before taking his leave" is called Ser Byron. Such a poetical name! He's just the type Sansa would have swooned over before, it seems. He even has that blond mane, much like Joffrey did. Sansa does not even react to him, LOL. But she sure had a lot to say about ol' Lothor's squashed nose, and common, honest face, didn't she. Ah! She's growing up!
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Post by katie on Mar 24, 2015 2:41:08 GMT
I dunno if he knows now, but it's entirely possible that he will find out at some point. Especially if Myranda ever gets wise. I can see him hooking up with her and she inadvertently blurts it out. Randa noooooo!
YES, I totally noticed that too!!! When the other nights first came in and I read their descriptions, I was like "Oh no...." But yes, as you say, outside of a detached physical description, Sansa seems perfectly unimpressed. Yeah, she flirts with them a little, but that's just her nature, LOL. I was SO relieved that she didn't give Byron and Shadrich a second glance! Wheeeewwww!
That's not to say, however, that one or both of them won't try to get into her bloomers.... Hoe don't do it!!!
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 24, 2015 3:38:05 GMT
Hoe don't do it, indeed! OMG! But Ser Shadrich has spiky, orange hair and a pointy nose. A bit like a fox, no? Sly like one certainly.
Speaking of who knows about Sansa though, in AFFC, she and Petyr discuss who actually knows she's there. Lothor Brune knows she is Sansa Stark and Oswell Kettleblack knows who she is. Oswell has a direct link to King's Landing and is, it seems, feeding info to Petyr that his 3 sons glean from being there. I'm wondering how this little plot point is going to play out. We know at least one of the Kettleblacks is in custody for besmirching the honor of Cersei and Margaerey. Would Oswell's knowledge of where Sansa Stark is hiding be something that could help his son?
Petyr even has that throw away line about how "Men of honor will do things for their children that they would never consider doing for themselves." This points more directly to Ned, but who knows?
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Sandor is still alive, he still has his secrets; they may yet come into play...