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Post by katie on Mar 25, 2015 19:19:28 GMT
I've meandered around this topic a little bit on the Tumblrs, and I wanted to get y'all's opinion. In the chronology of the night of the BoBW, where exactly does Sansa place the UnKiss?
It seems to hop around in her recollections. The first time she thinks of it, in her first ASoS chapter, it reads: "He kissed me and threatened me and made me sing him a song." But then her final recollection of it, in her last AFfC chapter, it reads: "He took a song and a kiss and left me nothing but a bloody cloak."
The first quote suggests that he kissed her when she initially thought he was gonna -- when he yanked her closer and she closed her eyes. But the second quote suggests that he did it after she sang for him, in those quiet moments when he began to cry and she cupped his cheek.
I think it's important to know the chronology because the contexts are SO strikingly different! If he kissed her before the song, that was when he was in a more "impassioned" state, so the kiss would have probably been a bit more feverish. But if he kissed her after the song, it would have been more soft and tender.
Then there's what we can glean from the description of the kiss itself -- Sansa recalls his "cruel mouth" "pressed down" on her own... The "cruel" part suggests the pre-song kiss, but the "pressed down" puts me in mind of them being in a prostrate position. And then, of course, there's her equating the kiss with what happens in a marriage bed, so that right there is a major point in favor of a post-song kiss.
Maybe even she doesn't know when it happened! She was kinda tipsy that night, LOL... Maybe all she can really remember is how it felt. Thoughts??
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 25, 2015 19:43:07 GMT
I just typed up a long reply and lost it. GRR!
I agree that her placement of the kiss shifts from happening before the song to after. So, why does that happen? What is that revealing about her character development?
When she first remembers the kiss, she is still, for want of a better word, a bit naive about sex/love. She hasn't married Tyrion yet or encountered Marillion and Lysa's "song." The way she remembers his kiss is rather romantic--just like one of the songs. He kissed me! Threatened me! Made me sing! She's not connecting the song and the kiss. It's separated by the threat and it lacks the sensuality of her later recollections.
After she's suffered the wedding knight and the bulbous, purple penis. After Marillion and Lysa's singing make her start to understand what else a "song" could mean when you are in bed with a man, the placement of the kiss changes. I agree, the idea of his mouth "pressed down" on hers indicates she is lying under him in her memory, and she now thinks of it in the following order: song, kiss, cloak. The threat is still there, but the order of events puts the kiss with the song in bed with him. Why, though? Is it that the moment awakens something in her sexually that she cannot describe so she just calls it a kiss because she doesn't yet have words like "my loins were on fire'("wetness that was not blood," ahem)? What kind of a kiss is she remembering if it equals seeing Tyrion's junk and Lysa's singing in her marriage bed?
Also, what do you make of Myranda's story about killing her husband in bed? It's funny and shocking and just weird, not the least reason being that Myranda has JUST MET Sansa and she's all, "yeah, I killed my husband while I was fucking him. Rude, huh?" Her exact word are she killed him. I know a lot of people interpret Sansa as "killing" the Hound with her song in bed. Is this another connection we are supposed to draw?
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Post by katie on Mar 25, 2015 20:26:18 GMT
You're right, the kiss does seem to evolve with Sansa herself, from "he kissed me, teeheehee, isn't that sweet?" to "he practically mouth-fucked me", LOL. It's interesting because that whole first chapter in ASoS opens with Sansa having outgrown her clothes and her tits practically busting out of her bodice and how she notices grown men ogling her. So, she's starting to physically mature as well as mentally mature. And her first recollection of the kiss is indeed romanticized and the context in which she thinks of it is less "sigh" and more "look how much more experienced I am than these silly Tyrell girls, pfft". And then, as you say, as she develops further, so does the kiss. It goes from merely romantic to highly erotic. It goes from a mere recollection to an actual sensory memory. She remembers how it feels. And she recalls his cruel mouth, not his cruel lips, and I'm sorry but there IS a difference!!! Like, he's using his ENTIRE MOUTH here, not just his lips, which is why I don't think LF is tonguing Sansa at this point, heehee. If LF's kisses were anything more noteworthy, I think Sansa would be openly (in her mind) comparing them to Sandor's. It makes me wonder if the UnKiss will continue to develop in TWoW... if she'll offer more details, or if she'll remember "other things" going on besides just the kiss....  (or maybe they'll just finally reunite already and she'll have no more need for silly fantasies!!!!) |
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 25, 2015 22:24:59 GMT
But how do you think she can recall a full mouthed kiss he never gave her? If you don't know what a kiss feels like you can't reproduce the feeling of it on you mind. It's a very special feeling,very powerful when you want the man kissing you,especially if it is your first kiss. I still remember my first kiss, LOL, the feeling, I mean. Before our lips parted,he bit my lower lip very slightly adding a wonderful spicy touch I'll ever treasure on my mind. But this is something that really happended, you can't relive something imaginary,not the feeling, although you can imagine the actions that you have seen or read somewhere. She wouldn't know what he tastes like,what his tongue rubbing hers would feel like if no one ever kissed her fully on the mouth before.
And is it necessary for them to be lying on the bed for her to feel his cruel mouth pressing down on hers? Really? The guy is very tall, he towers over everybody, so even standing up his lips would press down on hers, wouldn't they? He would have to bend and she would have to tip her face upwards to meet his lips. I have a very tall husband and it's a bit like that,although I'm taller that average myself. And Sansa is still a very young girl and Sandor is veeery tall.
I still agree that the second version of the kiss must have happened on her bed, the previous question is only about linguistics, because I think that description would be adequate for them even when standing up due to his towering height.
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Post by katie on Mar 25, 2015 22:46:03 GMT
Welllll, there are certain primal instincts people have that allow them to just "know" what something feels like without ever having experienced it firsthand, but I see your point. Oh gawd I'd hate to think that Sansa's UnKiss is merely her replacing what LF is doing to her with Sandor!  OR, again, this could be a clue to some sort of warging moment... Though I'm not so sure that Sandor has ever kissed anyone either. ;-P As for Sandor's mouth pressing down on hers, I feel like if they had been standing, then she would have said "pressing against" instead. But, again, semantics. ;-) |
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 25, 2015 23:50:22 GMT
Pressing against is what happens if both partners are similar heights but what if one is much taller? Does pressing down on her lips still sound weird? And you are right, semantics, not liguistics,yes. This has nothing to do with the order though, I agree that second memory of a kiss happened while they were lying on her bed, after she sang and then cupped his cheek. When I was teenager I used to imagine cruel kisses and so on, LOL and they were cruel kisses because I thought burning passion was the best, like in movies, and that quiet smoldering love was booorrring. That's nonsense but that's what most of us think at that age. When someone really kissed me it was different and it felt incredibly better than I had imagined. My imagination was visual or conceptual for the things that I had never experienced but now, when I imagine a kiss I can feel it, its warmth and sweetness,the excitement and the thrill. This is something I couldn't do then, there were still no memories of what a kiss would feel like. Perhaps Sansa can't feel it either,only imagine it in a visual way but she doesn't know yet. I have no idea  |
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Post by katie on Mar 25, 2015 23:59:16 GMT
I think that's a fair point, she feels what she *thinks* it would feel like, because she has certainly imagined kissing guys before and she has most certainly seen other people do it (and she has SOME frame of reference from all the other dipshits who have kissed her -- Dontos, Tyrion, LF, Sweetrobin, etc.). But it's going to be SO MUCH BETTER when she finally experiences the real thing!!!
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 26, 2015 0:18:58 GMT
And I agree with you that Sandor has never kissed anybody. How could he if he can't stand fake intimacy and reading disgust on a whore's face would hurt him in inimaginable ways? He is very vulnerable and sensitive deep down. This gives me an idea of how much he wants Sansa that he goes out of his way to approach her, wearing his heart on his sleeve (I could keep you safe.... I'd kill them)and risking a shattered heart. His heart is so brittle by now that she could shatter it easily and turn it to ashes but he approaches the flame that is her and risks all that. He is like a moth approaching the flame and I'm sure he fears love as much as he fears fire,because he was disfigured by someone he loved, his own brother. He probably loved Gregor more than anyone if his mother was dead by then, he probably admired him and loved him, making that action all the more cruel.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 26, 2015 2:57:53 GMT
Oh, eyesofmist, you make me cry! Poor baby Sandor, maybe loving and admiring his big brother. Isn't there some saying about the greatest hate springing from the greatest love. The ultimate betrayals come from those you admire and trust.
I'm so afraid this may be what is happening. Remember, she doesn't think of Sandor getting into bed with her until she's had to strip and get into bed with Tyrion, and her memories of the Hound's kiss get a lot more specific at the same time we know for a fact that Petyr is kissing her "for a long time." I know you don't like to think of Petyr slipping her the tongue, but how do you kiss for a long time with just closed lips? What is a long time to Sansa? We know he did it to Cat and Lysa when he was just a boy (and look at that--he was a creep from the very first. I don't buy these interpretations of Petyr that have him developing his issues after being rejected. He's always been an inappropriate perv).
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Post by katie on Mar 26, 2015 3:31:53 GMT
I dunno, I just can't bring myself to believe he's tonguing her, and not just because I don't WANT to believe it either, LOL. I really truly feel that if he was getting THAT fresh with her, she would mention it. He kisses her "for a long time" on the show too, but that was just with the lips. Yup, that's what Imma go with, LOL.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 26, 2015 3:48:15 GMT
Well, I like the way you think  . I hope you are right and she's saving the tongue for Sandor, but I just got the heebie-jeebies and assumed, especially after Cat's recollections. |
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Post by katie on Mar 26, 2015 3:51:32 GMT
That's not to say that he still won't try it eventually, but when/if he does, Sansa will definitely make note of it, if not actually pull away. "That's not how a father should kiss a daughter!" Followed by a slap, gods willing. ;-P
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 26, 2015 7:31:59 GMT
Since when has George avoided nasty things happening to his characters? We don't want these things to happen but they do happen in these novels. Tyrion made her strip in font of him and groped her, and she had to see him naked, that's really nasty, so those kisses were probably most inapropriate if they were described as long. But I had never thought that she had those vivid memories of Sandor's kiss because Littefinger kissed her though this is indeed a possibility. When she first talked about the kiss she hadn't been touched by either Tyrion or Littefinger, so perhaps she is just daydreaming. Her memory sounds like a romance novel kiss rather than a real kiss. Perhaps she was like me as a young teen, cause I imagined movie kisses for my stories. Real kisses proved to be really different, LOL and much better than I had imagined them. There are things you can't really imagine properly and much less describe them until you feel them first hand.
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Post by katie on Mar 26, 2015 15:13:55 GMT
Eh, like I said, Sansa's a pretty intuitive and imaginative girl, I don't think it's so far-fetched for her to be able to take what she does know from her own experiences, what she's seen from other people's experiences, wrap it in a song, and transpose it into her own headcanon of what she thinks a passionate kiss should be and should feel like. Of course, it's not 100% accurate because the kiss never happened, so it can only be a shadow of the real thing... And once the real thing DOES happen, it'll blow her socks off!
I just don't think LF is slipping her the tongue at this point. He kisses her "for a long time", yes, but that could just mean that his lips overstayed their welcome by a few seconds, LOL. I think a kiss from LF that lasts anything more than a 2-3 seconds IS "a long time" for Sansa. If it were from some she was actually attracted to (i.e. Sandor), 2-3 seconds would probably be considered too quick. See what I mean? It's subjective based on the person doing the kissing. Like I said, when I read that, I think of the kiss on the show; it did last a long time, as far as I was concerned, but it was lips only. I don't picture LF as a particularly passionate kisser anyway, LOL.
And eyesofmist, you're right, George does not avoid nastiness, but neither does Sansa. If LF had overstepped his bounds by kissing her in a most un-fatherly-like fashion, I'm convinced she would have mentioned it.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 26, 2015 15:37:14 GMT
I could see it both ways. Whether Sandor actually kissed her or not (and call me delusional, I am, but for me, the jury is still out on whether he did or not), he touched her, desired her and caused an awakening. So even if she has not had a true passionate kiss, he has stirred physical desire in her. She knows what kisses feel like, and while it's not really described, however you want to picture the BoBW scene, they were in bed together--I presume that Sandor was on top of her somehow. She hasn't had that with anyone else, and like I said before, she may be calling this feeling a "kiss" because she doesn't know how else to call it?
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. I hope you are right and she's saving the tongue for Sandor, but I just got the heebie-jeebies and assumed, especially after Cat's recollections.