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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 14, 2015 17:54:15 GMT
I've been thinking about this for a while and I know if it makes sense for you but I'll try to explainn how I see it. Sansa says several times that Tyrion was kind,that Joff was a monster but Tyrion was twisted but kind. However, she never says Sandor is kind to her,she says that he does things with surprising delicacy (dubbing at her broken lip),not ungently,etc. Why? Because a woman who loves a man doesn't say he's kind when she speaks about him,not in Martin's novels. Sandor does much more for Sansa than Tyrion because an act should be valued according to its price and Sandor risked his job,status,way of living and also his life for her. It cost nothing to Tyrion to order the KG to stop beating her. A kindness that doesn't require much effort can't be put in the same level as another which may cost a person a lot. Sandor's enough to Joff could have cost him a lot,it cost Tyrion very little to stop the beatings, as he was the Hand. By the way, why did Martin chose to make Sandor be under the whims and orders of a dwarf, a woman (Cersei) and a kid? These are the people we see him obey,as if he was under their feet. So the ultimate alpha specimen is under the boot of people that would be below him according to natural selection rules,in the food pyramid he'd be on top,but status has him in a low position compared to theirs. Was this done of purpose by Martin? Of course I don't think men are superior to women,or the strong superior to the pysically weaker,but as regards existentialism and considering what Sandor says about mutton and he being the butcher, regardless who he has to kill (rich,powerful,old or young,one sex or the other,it makes no matter.) Well, some say Sansa could have loved Tyrion because she says he is kind but it is probably the opposite,if what a woman has to say about a man is that he is kind,love between them isn't possible as she is not attracted to him. Perhaps they could be friends but nothing more.She tries to find something she likes in him and she realised she feels pity for him.She also says pity is against love and if you pity a man,you won't be able to love him. I don't know if this is true in real life but I think it is in Martin's world. Sansa says she feels fear for Sandor after he tells her about his burns,but not pity, and she could have.It would have been natural. But that's not what she felt because she was meant to become attracted to him later. She never thinks he is kind because attractive men aren't described as kind in ASoIaF by the women who feel something for them. His imagined kiss is cruel and he imagines him kissing her with a cruel mouth,not a kind one. Tyrion fans don't get it but the fact that Sansa remembers his kindness doesn't mean she may learn to love him but rather the opposite. However,Sandor is different, she remembers him in the way a woman remembers a man she feels attracted to. Despite herself, she feels attracted to him although she may not have realised yet. Does any of this make sense ?
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 14, 2015 18:23:07 GMT
I think you are on to something. Kind is not a word that is a precursor to romance, at least not to my mind. Because I am a dork, I looked up the word "kind" in the dictionary just to get a feel for connotation, and most commonly I see it described as "benevolent." To be kind or benevolent means to show charity, I think very subtly there can be a notion that in being kind, one is bestowing something on some who doesn't necessarily deserve it. The worth of the person receiving the kindness is not as important as the person being kind. Is that making any sense at all?
Being kind shows quite a bit about person's ability to be charitable, but not much about the person they are showing the kindness to is the way I'm looking at it.
In the same way, pity can be a form of kindness, being charitable and feeling bad for someone's situation, but it's a bit impersonal?? Is that the word I want? I'm not sure.
However, as you say, Sansa feels FEAR for the Hound after he tells her his story. Fearing for someone shows a personal investment to his well being.
To sum up my ramble (which I don't know if it particularly added to your very interesting idea): kindness/pity--ultimately can be rather impersonal, even though they are positive emotions for the person showing pity or kindness. Fearing for someone, however, is not impersonal.
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Post by katie on Apr 14, 2015 18:30:55 GMT
During Sansa and Sandor's first one-on-one after the tourney, she straight up tells him that he is being "UNkind". She actually says "That's unkind", as opposed to "You're unkind", and there is a difference of course. Sandor isn't kind in his words, for sure, but he is most certainly kind in his actions. But because he is so harsh and abrasive in the way he speaks to Sansa, she can't exactly justifiably call him "kind" the way she does Tyrion. In fact, she refers to Sandor as "a mean-tempered dog who bites any hand that tries to pet him" (which is actually kind of adorable, heehee), so while she acknowledges that he shows her kindness in the things he does for her, he still says unkind things, and I think that frustrates her terribly because she obviously WANTS to like him and connect with him and show HIM kindness in return, but he always snaps at her. (Until that last act of kindness on her bed, of course...)
So, if Sansa isn't remembering Sandor with the word "kind" in mind, it's not terribly surprising. But words are wind, and actions speak louder.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 14, 2015 18:44:23 GMT
Yes, I agree that he showed a behaviour that can be considered kind although he is gruff. What I try to explaint but maybe I'm doing it wrong,LOL, is that describing a man as kind is not SEXY. So the girl may think he is doing gentle actions and so on,but wouldn't describe him as kind,no matter what.
When you feel attracted to a guy you don't usually choose the word kind to describe him, you know what I mean? When a character says they feel pity for another,there's no room for sensuality there. Real life may be different but in a romance the male lead is never described as kind and George went round and round to avoid applying these kind of word to Sansa or Sandor. She gives him comfort,she prays for him,she fears for him and understands him but she doesn't say she feels compassion for him or that he is kind. On the contrary, she remembers him over and over but there's some resesntment because he left her and didn't come back,LOL. That's how you describe a lover,you wouldn't say you remember him and that he was very kind. That's one of the reasons I'm sure she wants him, because of the way she talks about him in her memories.
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Post by katie on Apr 14, 2015 19:03:04 GMT
I get what you're saying, and I think it has to do with how GRRM is deliberately and meticulously building this relationship by using so much subtly and by also throwing in all these red herrings. To be honest, I can't be TOO mad at all the anti-SanSans or pro-Tyrions, because at the end of the day, I think they are playing right into GRRM's trap! He WANTS them to overlook Sansa's thoughts/dreams/fantasies about Sandor, he WANTS them to only focus on the negative, he WANTS them to think that Tyrion is a "hero" in Sansa's eyes... So that when Sansa finally and truly acknowledges her feelings for Sandor, it will be just as much if not more a surprise to them as it will be to her! LOL
As we have discussed before, GRRM doesn't want to make this relationship obvious, because when it becomes obvious, it becomes clichéd. He wants people to believe, as Littlefinger does, that Sansa is still okay with accepting the nearest pretty boy as her husband/lover. But those who actually PAY ATTENTION to her chapters know that this is NOT how it ends for Sansa. This is NOT where her arc and development are going. The gentle Lady Sansa Stark, who loves songs and pretty things and handsome knights, is going to fall in love with the ugly, rough, uncouth, untitled Sandor Clegane, and that is all there is to it. ;-)
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 14, 2015 19:27:48 GMT
Yeah, Katie, that's it. This romance is hidden in plain sight. She has her true knight in front of her and she can't see him,LOL, just like those fans.This is meant to be subtle and there are red herring all over the place because it wouldn't be so satisfying if everything was clear from the beginning. What is so clever is how George hides it because when you really looks it's there and it's been there since the beginning, since that journey where she kept stealing glances at him all they way to Kings Landing. But how do we know,only because he tells her to have a look, the look she's wanted to have since they met in Winterfell.
George can't complain that they don't get it because they aren't supposed to get it until much later,you are right. The other romances in this story are not hidden,they are clear and nobody doubts them,perhaps Gendry&Arya is not seen by some readers. But it's there too,sublte and light,as it becomes Arya's age. She is too young but she feels attracted to that boy and it may become something later,or perhaps not. With Sansa & Sandor it's different,they will meet again, if they weren't going to meet again George would have made it more obvious,like Dany & Drogo or Jaime & Brienne because people are supposed to see it. Not these one,this one is just one of his bunnies in the top hat.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 14, 2015 19:46:54 GMT
But if they looked, really looked, they would realise KIND is not the word to describe a man whose bones you want to jump,it never is.
It's the choice of words because it reflects what the woman feels (the girl, Sansa). The man a woman wants may be kind and that's lovely but she would never choose that quality to define him or to remember him by. Not in romance,it defies the language of romace. I haven't read loads or romances but I have read some,and kind is not the way to refer to a romatic interest. In fact,hate offers more possibilities than kindness,as kindness is nice but it seems a warm feeling at the most. Romace is about heat not warmth and hate is is white hot. kindness woulnd't do. Compassion doesn't do either. I'm talking about the language of romance not the reality of love. Love takes kindness and compassion sometimes but romance doesn't, romance has its own language and images and these two words wouldn't be included,IMO.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 14, 2015 20:24:45 GMT
This quote is quite telling. Sansa felt less than kindness for Tyrion when they were together in KL,married,less than kindness because she felt pity,which she (Martin,LOL) describes as the death to desire. This is what I meant,pity and even kindness are opposed to desire. When you start to pity someone,romantic love you is nowhere to find. This is the language of romance George knows very well and he even puts this words in Sansa's mind despite her young age. Perhaps she is too young to have these thoughts but George puts them on her mind.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 14, 2015 20:27:45 GMT
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 14, 2015 20:51:46 GMT
I find it interesting that the tyrionxsansa shipper did not notice the phrase immediately afterward. I could certainly be accused of picking and choosing what I want to see, but "pity was the death of desire" is immediately after that. That is a fairly unambiguous statement, I should think. And even after, it's not like Sansa remembers kissing Tyrion--and she did, in fact, kiss Tyrion. It was right there on the page. She never recalls that kiss. Everytime she's ever thought about her marriage bed with Tyrion, she puts the Hound in his place--both in her dream and in her discussion with Randa. I'm not well experienced in romance--I was very picky as a young girl (not that I had a lot of choice, hah!)--and then when I found what I wanted, I kept him! However, I cannot think of any crush or romantic notion I ever had starting with me thinking how kind someone was. Maybe I just liked snarky asses, but I often found my initial irritation with someone often turned to more romantic feelings. It's not that kindness isn't important, and not that Sandor isn't kind in his way, but that's not going to be the trait that gets the blood pumping, you know? And I think you are right to point that out, eyesofmist. Even in Disney's "Beauty and the Beast", when Belle's feelings start to change toward the Beast, she says "there's something sweet, and ALMOST kind"--almost . Sansa wishes Dontos had Sandor's ferocity. A ferocious man is not one to be pitied. Sansa remembers his kiss as cruel, and there is every indication that the "cruelty" of that kiss turns her on, even if she's not quite sure about it all yet. So, Tyrion's kindness held up against a "cruel mouth" that she can't stop thinking about--there is no contest.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 14, 2015 23:20:33 GMT
This reminds that a lot of men say think women go afther the snarky assess and the bad boys who treat them like crap and don't give a chance to the "nice" guys,that if a man is too nice women won't want him.
It's not that kindness is not a desirable quality but a,s you said, it's not what makes blood boil. I was very much like you and didn't date may guys before I married but even if you only know about romance from novels you notice this. Ferocity and cruel kisses,or snark and irritation,are more capable of turning someone on than kindness and pity.
Dany remembered an old knight whose house had a red door and where she was happy.She remembered his kindness but he was a fatherly figure,whereas Drogo and Daario had ferocity and turned her on.
This is all about language and the ideas it provokes. Sansa thinks of several men,uses posive words to describe most of them and no so many to describe Sandor. However,it's him she feels attracted to.The others mean nothing to her.
Think of Harry the Heir, she likes his teeth? What? Nice teeth are great,of course,but when a man turns you on,do you look at his teeth or rather at his lips? Dimple are charming, but come on, you'd look at his broat shoulders or the intensity of his eyes if you found him attractive.
Those details are telling us that she is not attracted to Harry,at least not yet.
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 15, 2015 0:44:07 GMT
I may be deluding myself because I just couldn't bear it if Sansa really was attracted to Harry, but here are the things that make me think not:
-The way she looks at Harry's dimples and teeth are the way she looked at Sweetrobin's hair and the way she searched Tyrion's entire body--she's looking for something to like, something to fixate on which is the opposite of the way she deals with Sandor. She cannot bear to look at his face at first, but when she makes the effort and really looks at him, she doesn't look for something to find attractive--she finds the one thing that upsets her about him. I suppose you could say this is because she's not needing to find him attractive, but it's a strange kind of parallel to the way she reacts to the men who are chosen for her.
-I think nice teeth and dimples are attractive, but they aren't really sensual, if you see the difference. A feral smile, sharp teeth--that could be sexy. Nice straight teeth--eh. It's good, but it's not particularly sexy. I've never understood the attraction to dimples, myself. Those seem to be something to admire on a baby, not a man, but that's just me. Plenty of women do like them.
-Sansa compares Harry to Joffrey. That doesn't bode well.
I'm just speaking from my own personal experience here, but the snarky guys, the "asses," were often the ones I had the best conversation with. There was banter and give and take. Sometimes the "nice" guys were somehow condescending or...I don't know...paternalistic, maybe? "Let me treat you right, little lady." I can't speak for all women because I know there are women who do go for a "bad boy" type to try to reform him. I've seen it happen, but Sansa and the Hound's situation is not like that. He is quite gentlemanly with her...in his way. He escorts her to her rooms. He saves her from the mob. He wipes her lip. He gives her his cloak. But at the same time, he's also challenging her world view, talking to her, making her drop the charade she's forced to keep up while at King's Landing. He tells her stories about himself, opens up to her and invites her to sing for him, shows an appreciation for the things she likes--songs and stories. That's really, really attractive. Having someone share such things with you is to me, one of the most attractive things ever. Much better than dimples.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 15, 2015 8:33:24 GMT
When I read about those dimples I thought the same,that's how you describe a child. It feels charming and nice but not sensual. This doesn't mean nice teeth and dimples aren't attractive because they are,but nobody would focus on them to give an idea there's attraction between two characters. Harry is described in a very detached way,which doesn't convey attraction.
That description of Sandor wearing the white cloak draped over his broad shoulders,his hands resting on his belt, is the opposite. Focussing on a man's hands and how broad his shoulders are is much more pesonal and shows attraction. Many women look at men's hands when they find them attractive. Broad shoulders are very appealing too. There are other physical traits that grab attention in that sense,but dimples or teeth don't fall into that category.
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 15, 2015 14:23:25 GMT
Yes, this is good! I was trying to think of a time when Sansa does describe the Hound in more detail, and yes, the shoulders and hands do indicate an appreciative glance. I even like the fact that they are resting on his sword belt. There's something rather manly and sexy in his stance, on guard, hands resting on his belt, and I think a "studded leather jerkin" sounds kind of hot . I haven't looked closely at what every man in Sansa's life wears, but if I recall there are a lot of padded, quilted doublets and brocade and such. Not for the Hound, and there is something primal and manly about his wearing leather. It reminds me a gamekeeper, wearing his moleskins and leathers as he heads off to seduce the lady of the manor . So, in this passage with the Hound on Maegor's holdfast, she's very, very clear that she doesn't like his anger and his hateful way of talking. And she TELLS him that. Compare this to Alayne having to maintain her polite demeanor even after Harry has insulted her terribly. Partly it's the circumstances--she's posing as a bastard, she's welcoming him and the Waynewoods as guests, but still, she cannot tell him outright what she thinks of him, not even later when he apologizes and they are having a relatively private conversation during the dance. Also, the one thing that she thinks is the worst of the Hound, his anger, is the one thing that she kind of wishes Dontos had. So, while this could be seen as a negative reaction on Sansa's part, what we actually get in this passage is that she looks Sandor right in the face, and she thinks that his scars and the way his mouth twitches aren't so bad when compared to his angry eyes, but THEN we see that the "ferocity" is actually something she likes--which tells me the scars and the twitch really are not deal breakers at all. And one last think about teeth. You know who has TERRIBLE teeth? BROWN teeth? That are described more than once, with Brienne noticing how awful they are? Lem Lemoncloak. I'm not saying that the Hound has bad teeth because Lem does. I think Sansa might have noticed that, BUT Lem Lemoncloak had a wife and a daughter. Lem Lemoncloak finds himself some company at The Peach, just like all the other men. I don't know what I want to say about this exactly except, even teeth do not make or break a relationship in Westeros, lol. Maybe.
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Post by katie on Apr 15, 2015 15:04:30 GMT
Oh she was DEFINITELY giving him the once-over at Joff's tourney, heehee! I think I mentioned before about how she barely glanced at Joffrey and his siblings before she spotted Sandor and basically became fixated on him until he noticed and acknowledged her. Caught ya lookin' again, Sansa! ;-)
And Maegor's isn't the first time Sansa notices and remarks on his eyes. When he demands her to look at him as he's escorting her back from the feast in AGoT:
I've always been intrigued by the use of the word "sullen" here. It suggests something deeper behind the anger, which she is able to perceive. That he's not just some mindless rage monster. He's also sad. After this passage, she describes his face in more detail... And then begins to cry. Why does she cry? For herself because she is scared? Or for him because she can feel his pain? Probably a bit of both, but I always thought it was more of the latter. Those sullen, angry eyes got to her. Then he proceeds to tell her the story of his burns, and then:
Yes... "somehow". It wasn't until after she had finally looked him in the face that they finally connected. Prior to that, she was terrified and trying to find a way to diffuse it by making mindless small talk. But one look in his eyes, and all that went away.
She continues to be "frightened" in their subsequent encounters, but it takes on a different flavor. She's not so much frightened for herself as she is for him, imo.
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