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Post by katie on Apr 16, 2015 14:48:22 GMT
You might have already seen this post on Tumblr this morning: I mean, I've known for months that she was going back to Winterfell and that she was most likely going to be Replacement Jeyne this season... And I know Sophie mentioned a "traumatic scene" coming up.... but I never expected a full-on sexual assault. I figured she'd somehow get away from Ramsay before he had the chance, like Theon would rescue her just in time. But I guess not. I don't think I can watch this, you guys. This is NOT what is supposed to happen to Sansa. ...Or is it? I can't imagine Sansa being sexually assaulted in the books, just because she has been able to avoid it for so long already. I think her arc is starting to gear towards her finding her agency and someone she can genuinely love/have sex with. GRRM wouldn't possibly do something like this to her. Would he? I'm scared, you guys, hold me. (P.S. - When Sophie first mentioned the "traumatic scene" way way back then, everyone immediately assumed sexual assault. Isn't that sad? Isn't that even sadder that it was true? But I didn't think so at the time because, in the same breath, she said she "loved" filming it.... And what kind of actress WOMAN says she LOVES filming a rape scene??? Welp....)
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 16, 2015 16:39:20 GMT
I don't think I can watch this either. While I had resigned myself to not really caring about the show, expecting the worst, this is beyond the pale for me. I've said before that even in the books, I cannot bear to reread the chapters where Jane is assaulted. Heck, GRRM does not even describe the actual assault--we know what Ramsay tells Reek to do. We see the aftermath through Reek's eyes, but the reader does not "see" it.
Now, I freely admit I'm someone who will jump aboard the "IT'S ALL GOING TO BE TERRIBLE" bus so I can have the relief of knowing it wasn't as bad I thought it was going to be, but this doesn't feel like that. D & D are known for adding rape. That's a fact. I was disturbed by last season's attempted rape of Meera. That was not graphic but it was upsetting. Dear little Meera being sexually threatened, while graphic rape goes on all around, in a scene completely made up by D & D. And of course the Jaime and Cersei scene was completely misinterpreted.
I don't know where the story is going to end. Maybe the Jeyne Poole storyline cannot be adapted, it's so important to the ending, but I'm doubting that. To be honest, and I may be over reacting, but this strikes me as two fanboys giving payback to that uppity little bitch of a character who refused to fuck their beloved Tyrion. The actress is now over 18, so they can play out some revenge fantasies--at least in my humble, and admittedly maybe wrong, opinion.
And because Ramsay is considered a hottie on the show, people will make excuses for it. I honestly feel very sick about it.
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Post by katie on Apr 16, 2015 16:54:21 GMT
What's odd is how this all completely flies in the face of all that "SANSA IS SUCH A BADASS NOW!!!111!" noise we've had to contend with since the end of last season, or how Sophie has gone on and on in interviews about how she "uses her sexuality to manipulate" LF and how Sansa and LF are the "gruesome twosome" and all that bullshit. How does Sansa getting RAPED by Ramsay Bolton (or anyone for that matter) jive with any of this?? I really don't want to believe it's true, but I keep seeing more and more that only reenforces rather than discourages my fears... And the worst part of it all is, this will DESTROY HER. Like, for good. I do not see how Sansa could POSSIBLY recover from something like this. Gurlfriend is resilient, yes, but this would just be too, too much. Of course, this is D&D we're talking about, though, so in the very next episode, she'll probably be joking around with Ramsay and having a slumber party with Myranda or something like nothing ever happened... I dunno about that exactly, BUT I definitely foresee all the Tyrion fanboys crawling out from under their rocks to proclaim that she got what she deserved for refusing to sleep with Tyrion and then abandoning him after Joff's murder. Oh yes, I can see it now....
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 16, 2015 17:28:43 GMT
That's just it, isn't it. How do you recover from being held captive by Littlefinger (because she is. She has no choice), being sold in marriage to the family that MURDERED her brother and her mother, to a man who flays and rapes and hunts women, and have all of this happen in your family home that has been occupied by said family. How do you get over that? As you say, D & D will just have her be fine. Maybe she'll sew herself a new dress to get over it. Girls like fashion, right? So a new dress, new necklace...eh. She'll be fine.
Sansa was supposed to be gaining agency. This rumor does not work with the arc we've been sold for Sansa--badass and back in charge, Sansa and Littlefinger wreaking vengeance for the harm done to her family. A woman can be strong and powerful and still be victim of rape, but I highly doubt that D & D are going to write a sensitive narrative that deals with such a thing. Logically, it makes no sense to marry Sansa to Ramsay--plenty of people have pointed out the problems with that. I see no reason to rework the fake Arya/Jeyne storyline like this except to put Sansa in an even more vulnerable position--as if being slobbered on by Littlefinger wasn't bad enough. As if being sold into marriage with Tyrion wasn't enough. As if having Joffrey threaten to rape her on her wedding night wasn't enough. As if showing a graphic depiction of her near rape wasn't enough (and that WAS a disturbing scene the way it was filmed. Hooray for the Hound, but Sophie was much younger and they still managed to film something even worse than was depicted in the books. In the books, the mob tried to grab her off her horse. They did not hold her down and rip her clothes and fumble in their pants. That was all on the show though). No, this seems like a punishment of her character.
I may be wrong, but I've read plenty of comments along the lines of "I can't want to see Littlefinger give Sansa his littlefinger"--that was a real comment I saw on an article about the new season. I see plenty of people who think she's a bitch for not banging Tyrion. I see enough comments that indicate some people want to see Sansa degraded, for whatever reason--she doesn't want to bang their faves, she was mean to Arya, she's a spoiled princess, it's not realistic that she hasn't been raped yet, etc.
The thing is, she HAS been degraded. She has been beaten. She's lost everything. She is being molested on the regular by Littlefinger, but it's not enough. I'm not saying it's everywhere, but the internet is a scary place, and there are enough that don't feel that Sansa's arc will be complete until she's been raped. Why?? I don't see any comments like this about any other character. I don't see anyone wanting Meera to get stuffed because it's just not realistic that she travels alone with a group of boys and men and still remains untouched. I don't see anyone wishing Arya had been raped because it's just not realistic that she's traveled with all these men and alone and hasn't been assaulted. I don't see anyone regretting that Myrcella did not also get raped when her ear was cut off. But you sure see this for Sansa. Why?
Whether D & D are thinking this way or whether they just want to add in some more of their favorite type of scene, I don't know, but it makes me sick to know some people will enjoy such a thing happening to Sansa.
I will hold out hope that the scene is traumatic because it starts with an assault but she somehow manages to kill or maim Ramsay. Perhaps some "subtle" dramatic irony will have the scene start with Sansa giving into the sexual advance only to cut of his "little Ramsay." I don't know, but I don't like it.
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Post by katie on Apr 16, 2015 18:25:18 GMT
I'm laughing but also dying a little inside... Because you're right; D&D haven't the first clue about women and no matter what, this will all be handled very sloppily and un-authentically. I dunno why they didn't just abandon the fake-Arya storyline to begin with. Yes, it completely upends several other storylines in the series -- Ramsay's foothold on WF (but whatevs); Theon's regaining his identity and humanity and ultimate escape (he could still do that without Jeyne/Sansa); Jon sending Mance and wildling women to WF to save "Arya" (but D&D already killed off Mance, sooooo)... And LF seems like he'll be spending more time in KL than WF this season, which also doesn't make any sense, because isn't WF LF's ultimate end-goal? Especially where Sansa is concerned? So, he's just, like, gonna drop off Sansa and then go play more games with the Tyrells in KL?? Huh? Another scene which Sophie has gone on record to say she loved filming. Good gawd, gurl.... I don't get that at allllll. From the beginning, even when I was still just a show-watcher, it seems clear that Sansa was headed for a greater destiny... being set up as the Anti-Cersei, overcoming all the bullshit and coming out the other end stronger and (dare I say it) HAPPY. Everyone likes to pick on GRRM for killing off "faves" and whatnot, but I feel like most of the POV characters who are still alive right now are in it for the long haul and are either going to have a happy ending or a tragic one. Sansa's already had her fair share of tragedy; I think she's being built up for a happy ending. I can't quite say the same for, say, Tyrion, Jaime, or even Arya. Bottom line, "rape" does not feel like an authentic outcome of the arc for Sansa that has been built for the past 5(4) books. But you're right, it would seem a hundred times more "realistic" for Arya to have been assaulted at some point given her circumstances -- that is exactly why Yoren had her pose as a boy in the first place!! 'Tis possible, but I can't see them allowing anything bad to happen to Ramsay. This show is too nihilistic for that. I have seen many people on Tumblr proclaim that, if this all comes to pass, that will be the final straw for them as far as this show is concerned. I wonder though....
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 16, 2015 18:42:00 GMT
This show was already two nasty for me to watch but they have managed to make it absolutely disgusting,and just for the sake of it. Martin's violence or sexual scenes are not gratuitous and this show goes to extreme legths to add outrageous scenes just for shock value. None of the characters in this show have anything to do with who or what they are in the books and none of them have changed for the better.
I don't care one bit what happens with this show any more and I wonder what Martin is thinking now. These guys have gone too far. I no longer think what they are doing has anything to do with the books. It's as if they had stolen and adulterated the story until it's barely recognizable. I really don't reconginize any of the characters there on the screen.
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 16, 2015 18:48:34 GMT
I'm over the show. The last few times we watched it at my house, my husband and I kind of looked at each other with shame afterward. I don't feel good when I watch the show. Season 3 enraged me. By the time season 4 was done, I stopped making time to watch the show--I still haven't seen the second half of season 4 entirely--I just watched a few scenes on YouTube, like the Hound's death scene, etc. I watched 5x01 because hubby wanted to watch and I was in the same room, but I don't feel excited or happy to watch it anymore. At best, I feel relief when it's over if I haven't seen my favorite characters completely demeaned. I'm just beginning to get this feeling that I'm doing something wrong by watching. I don't want to give my money or support to this, even though I love the story, I love the books, and I'm eager for more---but this isn't it, you know? As bad as the Sansa/Ramasy stuff might be, we still have hope that it will not be as bad as we think (it will be, who am I kidding ), but even the things we know for sure that are in the coming season give me serious pause. For example, I understand there is post-coital scene between Margaery and Tommen. Tommen who has been aged up to TWELVE, but still he is TWELVE, in the series. What the hell? I'm sure it will be played for laughs--young boy gets to bang hot older wife, but it bothers me. A lot. And there is no reason for this. Margaery is skilled--she doesn't need sex to manipulate--she gets Tommen on her side with kittens and kindness. That shows political savvy. That shows an understanding of human nature. That makes Margaery come across as very clever to me. But no, lets show her fucking a TWELVE year old to show how cool and smart she is. But that doesn't make her cool and smart. That makes her an abuser, just like Littlefinger. She's using sex to groom a young child into doing what she wants. But it's okay because she's a hot woman and he's a boy and all boys want it, amirite! <puke> ETA: Katie and I were posting about the same thing at the same time! It's awful isn't it?
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Post by katie on Apr 16, 2015 18:51:42 GMT
It all does seem ridiculously sadistic, doesn't it? Oh, and did I mention that apparently Margaery fucks Tommen this season too? Yup.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 16, 2015 18:59:47 GMT
I really didn't know they could go so far on TV in USA. I've never seen anything as disgusting as Ramsay Bolton's torture and abuse of Reek and Jeyne on a TV show ever and thought they wouldn't dare. If they do what it seems they'll do,this is turning into porn of the worst sort, violent porn with rape, snuff,torture,paedo-abusive characters and behavior. And what for? Everything for shock value.
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 16, 2015 19:15:42 GMT
It just makes me appreciate GRRM all the more for releasing the Alayne chapter. He's reminding us that for as bad as it is for Sansa in the books right now, at least there are lemon cakes and tourneys and companionship. I really wonder what he thinks of all of this.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 16, 2015 19:27:45 GMT
I think he must be really disgusted. One thing is deleting characters or plotlines that aren't central,and another thing is altering a POV character's arch in such a disgusting way. Jayne was just a very minor character and even then it was really painful to read all that rubbish Ramsey did to her. Having one of the POV characters live what a minor one was supposed to is going too far.
These guys should have created their own shocking pornish story instead of doing this disservice to Martin's work. As well as this,if they go too far people may dislike it and stop watching. They are taking too many risks.
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Post by katie on Apr 16, 2015 19:50:57 GMT
I can't recall if I shared this article on here before but I did on Tumblr. Anyway, intriguing quote by GRRM: And there you have it. I'd really love to know more about GRRM's meetings with D&D. Like, at some point did GRRM argue with them about giving Jeyne a more substantial role on the show because she would be important later on? Did he even get to make that argument at all? Or did they say "okay" just to appease him and then go on their merry way to do whatever the fuck they want? As for Marg & Tommen, didn't Natalie Dormer recently say in an interview how she put the kibash on any sexual stuff between them because she was uncomfortable with it??
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 16, 2015 20:08:45 GMT
So, Jeyne was the minor character glossed over? So why not just drop or rework that story line then? They didn't hesitate to do that with Jeyne Westerling or Lady Stoneheart or any number of other plot lines. Why do we have to make sure we keep in the sexual torture of a young girl?
I remembered hearing that Natalie Dormer asking for a scene to be redone because it was too sexual, but the fact that they still show them post-coital is still so wrong, and so unnecessary for the plot! And call me a hypocrite because I like Sansa and Sandor together, but I DEFINITELY am ANTI 12-year-old Sansa and Sandor together. So, 12-year-old Tommen and Margaery having sex, even if it's not shown directly is a problem to me.
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 16, 2015 20:09:31 GMT
double post
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Post by katie on Apr 16, 2015 20:16:52 GMT
Yeah, that's what I was trying to say earlier -- they don't HAVE to keep the fake-Arya plotline. Theon can still escape WF on his own, and they already killed off Mance, so who would Jon send to WF? Will he even find out about it at all now?
Part of me wishes they would have just started their dismantling of the series back in Season 1 so that we would know what we were in for right off the bat. But no, D&D knew that they would lose too many viewers, so they lured them (AND GRRM) in with a great first season and then started the systematic destruction after they already had everyone hooked. Shrewd. Dickish, but shrewd. Hopefully this shit with Sansa will be enough to convince people to stop watching.
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