I honestly don't think I can watch this...

It's interesting because I looked through the tags on all the reblogs of the original post I quoted in this thread, and ALL of them were completely freaking out, saying stuff like, "no, not Sansa!" "please don't let it be Sansa" "if this happens to sansa I will cut D&D's dicks off", etc. I honestly wonder how many of those were book-readers as opposed to show only-watchers. It was hard to tell. Some made direct references to the books but some did not. So, I do wonder how show-watchers are going to react to this versus how the book-readers will. And I wonder if all the people who said they will never watch the show again will actually make good on those threats.

Hmm, interesting point. I don't interact with many show-only watchers, but I do know that Sansa hate exists... but then again Sansa hate exists amongst many book-readers too, LOL. When I first watched the show, I was pretty indifferent toward Sansa myself (I actually thought she was a bitch) until her interactions with Sandor. Once that ended, I really didn't care what happened to her until she ended up with Littlefinger, because at least that was semi-interesting. That seems to be what many show-watchers feel right now too -- "Sansa is finally interesting!!" I wonder if they'll still think that when she's being tortured and violated by Ramsay Bolton....

I don't think she's irrelevant to ASOIAF, or even that she's irrelevant to GoT really; I just don't think D&D care about her as much as GRRM.

And I don't think Harry or Aegon are irrelevant either; they all serve a purpose in the books, but that doesn't guarantee that D&D will include them. Exhibit A: Lady Stoneheart. Exhibit B: Arianne Martell.


Haters gonna hate. The negative comments don't bother me in and of themselves but they bother me that people can have such a WILDLY different view of the exact same material, because it makes me question my own reading comprehension. I can understand people's discomfort with how Sandor speaks to Sansa, but there's just soooo much more to it than that, and I think it's just way too much over-simplification to chock him up to another one of Sansa's "abusers". I think maybe some people project their own personal experiences onto the characters sometimes, and maybe Sandor and Sansa's relationship is a "trigger" for some people; I think I mentioned before that, apparently, some people actually left the fandom when the show cast RMC as Sandor because they had been sexually abused by an older man as a child or something, and I'm just like.... Yes, that's horrible, but how can you project that onto Sandor and Sansa? That's not their dynamic AT ALL!!! So, perhaps much of it has to do with people's own personal predilections and not so much what GRRM himself intended with the text. Because if you look at the text objectively, there is no abuse there. There is a severely broken man who cares for a girl and has no fucking idea how to handle that, and a girl who has had all her ideals shattered but is still able to see the good inside that broken man. 

The only way the naysayers can justify it is by admitting to the one thing they never will: that Sansa has feelings for Sandor. If they came at it from THAT angle -- that the reason Sansa feels the need to romanticize the BoBW is because she is "in love" with Sandor and can't accept that he did that to her -- THEN we might actually have a meaningful argument.

And yet, it STILL doesn't hold water, because as I mentioned before, she doesn't romanticize other guys she's been "in love" with who turned out to be duds too, like Joffrey and Loras. Also, I don't think those feelings developed until AFTER he left KL anyway. She was interested in and drawn to him before, but the overt fantasies and romanticizing didn't start until after he was gone. (In fact, it might have been the BoBW incident itself -- or rather her post-incident reminiscings of it -- that "awakened" Sansa's feelings for him.)

And I think it's rather cool & interesting that Sandor will be much closer to her "romanticized" version of him after his stint on the QI. ;-)

I also agree that Sansa and Sandor are rewriting their memories in a way,and that this is quite common in real life too. When you have some sort or romantic affair and this person goes away,when you remember what you had very often your memories are embellished to fit your wishes or your mental ideas and hopes. Everyting his better in restrospect but only if it was somewhat good or desirable in the first place. You may embellish an event but only if you look on it in positive or at least longing way.

Both Sandor and Sansa remember their story and skip the bad parts, they even make it better by adding what they whished had happened (the kiss,the love song,the girl thanking him after he saved her) and making it sound more romantic,more beautiful. She doesn't do this with Joff , Loras or Tyrion, only with Sandor. She relises that Loras doesn't want her and doesn't remember the rose incident,that Joff was a monster and that Tyrion was "kind" but she didn't want him. Noting to do with Sandor,she regrets not leaving with him when he offered and is a bit resentful because he went away and never came back. She longs for him and it's clear.

If you told anyone that you remember a man's kisses and feel bitter because he only left you his shirt or something like that before he disappeard from you life everybody would know that you have strong romantic feelings for that guy,if you also told them that you made up the kiss,that it never happen,this would make them feel even more sure that you want that guy and are very attracted to him.

The most simple interpretation,the first one you make on a insticutual level is usually right. When I read those memories about that kiss that didn't even happen I suspected for the fist time that Sansa wanted Sandor too. In her first version metion of the unkiss she says she kissed him,not the other way round and this in itself speaks volumes. Little Sansa Stark wishes she had kissed him,it's her desire we are witnessing when we read this,not his. She is the one who noticed he meant to kiss her although she was not completely sure of that. She was so scared that she decided to close her eyes and let it happen because she was not ready for that kiss then,but later,when he was gone and she didn't have to marry Joff,the Tyrells were there and she felt a bit safer,she desired she had kissed him and it is her choice,the fact that George words it like this is important "she kissed the Hound" in that first memory,she is wording out her wish.

Nobody wishes to kiss an abuser of hers unless they desire or love them. I know abused women desire their abusive partners but that's because they had a relatioship and Sansa had none with Sandor. Abused wives still desire and love their husbands despite everything and this is quite telling when we alnalyse Sansa's "unkiss" memory because anyway you read it this memory is saying she wanted the Hound. Abusive or not, she wants him,that's crystal clear for anyone to see. She doesn't remember or make up a kiss for Joff or Tyrion,not even from Loras,who never abuses or molested her. Why does she remember she kissed Sandor? Because SHE WANTS HIM. It can be said louder but not clearer. Not even trying to turn him into an abuser can you avoid the reality that she wants him.

This is one point,she wants him,whatever kind of man he is,but the second point is that he never abused her. He as mean to her,yes,but this doesnt't mean he was abusive. Women are losing perspective these days because the fact that a man arguess with you,even if he is mean to you doesn't make an abuser of him. You are on equal terms in that respect and you can argue back,tell him off or leave him for being an asshole but this is not abuse,that's something different. On the other hand,there are men who are "nice",they don't shout or lose their temper but are terribley abusive because they are controlling,demeaning and make a woman feel trapped and worthless. That's abuse,not shouting at you or arguing with you,or telling you that you are being stupid.

I'm not saying you have to put up with mean guys,you can tell them to get lost and never come back,but don't take this for abuse because they are different things.

The only thing Sandor did that is dangerous to her in my onpinion is drawing swords and daggers on her,not because he wanted to hurt her but because he scared her and made her felt threatened. Theatening her like that is awful and in our world could never be forgiven, or pehaps it could be forgiven but she should leave him if he was her partner. However, this is Martin language, I mean,that theme of the man drawing a dagger on the woman he desires has a different meaning in this author's world,it sybolizes "unfulfilled" sexual desire for Dunk (he never bangs the Red Widow,as far as we know)and also for Sandor.

The BoBW scene absolutely scary to me the first time I read it, I was afraid he could lose it completeley. George made an amazing job there because it really felt dangerous and incredibly tense,so dramatic that it could have been amazing on screen if it was well acted and written for the visual medium. But perhaps the casting wasn't right and the chracterization buildup was non existen,so Geroge couldn't write the scene he had imagined for the show. That episode,which is so powerful in the books,is not about an abusive older man lusting about a kid and wanting to rape her,it's about a big man-child (as you have said so well)with the emotional maturirity of an abused teenager in front of his first love and unable to handle the myriad of feelings that are burning his brains and lead to that vilonent reaction and those heartbreaking silent tears she could feel with her fingers. He never wanted to hurt her but has never known other emotional language than that of violence. He was brought up in a terrifying atmosphere and was trained in violent environment later,only valued for his fighting and killing abilities as an adult. I think he expressed himself in the only "language" he knew,his body language is wrong and scares most people, he scared Sansa but he didn't mean to scare her or hurt her in any way.

When reading,people must take into account the context, the world the story takes place in,and in that context,drawing a knife wasn't what it is now,killing was not the same either,as most men had to kill at some point in their lives, and some of them many times. They also should pay attention to Martin's language,as for him,a man drawing a knife on the woman he wants has a special meaning which doesn't include rape. In a real situation in our modern world this would be different but the same can be said for Arya and how she kills people,Tyrion and how he raped Tysha and the prostitute, had a singer killed and groped a twelve-year-old breast he married by force. I could go on an on about other characters,including Ned, who chopped a terrified man's head. This is a different universe and what happens there should be weighed and judged taking its particular rules into account.

I have this image in my head of Sansa and Sandor reuniting on the show after she has been abused to the same point as Jeyne has, and her "relationship" with Sandor springs out of this almost co-dependent need for physical contact, and they start an affair that she is more or less detached from, and their whole dynamic shifts to one where they are both just these damaged souls looking for comfort by any means possible, and it's all very unhealthy and uncomfortable. I can see D&D doing that to them. This way they can keep SanSan canon but also make it feel somehow "wrong" so that people have permission to openly hate it (like they already do). Ugh. But I am probably getting way ahead of myself, as usual. ;-)


Yes, I feel like they would have just had him die on-screen and be done with it if they had no intention of bringing him back. We'd either see him die, or they would have had Arya give him the gift of mercy. Yes, that would be completely out of character for her, but this is D&D we're talking about... ;-P Also, RMC mentioned that they wouldn't let him keep the Hound helm after he left, and some people seem to think this is a clue that he will be back one day, but I don't see how considering Sandor was never even seen with the helm again after the first episode of Season 2. He sure as hell didn't have it with him when he was with Arya, and Rorge is dead, so that whole Saltpans thing likely won't come up either.

I was just thinking last night that, when/if we should see him again on the show, he might look similar to how Lancel looks now -- hair cut very short, clean-shaven, wearing nothing than a modest robe/shift thing. CLEAN. That is if they keep the QI backstory...


EXACTLY. If he wanted to rape her, he would have just DONE it. He snuck up behind her in the dark and grabbed her, he could have done it just then. But no, instead he just kinda hangs on to her arm and whines about how he's "lost". And then he tells her that he would keep her safe and kill anyone who tries to hurt her again. Does that honestly sound "rapey" to you? 


Exactly! He still could have made that scene violent and tense like in the books. It would have been slightly different because D&D had eliminated all the build-up to that moment, so GRRM had to salvage whatever he could. But the fact that he DIDN'T go that route at all makes it seem very clear to me that he never intended the scene in the book to be traumatic or rapey. TV always dumbs down stuff anyway, so this was probably GRRM's way of saying "Stop thinking this scene was supposed to be traumatic -- here, let me bring the subtext right up to the surface!" I also think he did it because, if Sandor HAD behaved the same way on the show as he did in the books, the audience would NEVER accept him as a possible future love interest for Sansa. Throwing her on the bed and putting a knife to her throat would have been too much of a deal-breaker for the viewers, and they would never forgive him. Just as even the most astute book-readers can't seem to forgive him. GRRM must have been well aware of that when he wrote that scene.


And in Sansa's case, she is ABLE to do this BECAUSE he never actually hurt her. If he HAD harmed her in any way, and was STILL fantasizing about the UnKiss? Then yes, I would definitely start questioning her sanity and reasoning skills, LOL. But that's not what happened, and she is able to put it into a bigger context than ONE very exceptional moment when they were both under great duress. 


Yes, and haven't we ALL experienced that at some point? That missed opportunity where we were unsure at the time but later when reflecting upon it we think, "shoot! I should have kissed him [or whatever] when I had the chance!!" I think many of us can relate to that, so why are so many people giving Sansa such a hard time for doing it too??


Yes, and that is important to remember with Sansa and Sandor too. He ALLOWS her to sass him back. He says something shitty, she says something shitty, they are both equals in this dynamic. If he was "abusive", do you really think he would let her get away with that?? NO. In an abusive dynamic, one person is in control and has control over the other, and Sandor never has control over Sansa. She never FEELS controlled by him. In fact, she feels FREE to say whatever she likes to him. In many cases, she STAYS with him when she doesn't have to. Like on Maegor's rooftop. She could have left at any time, but she stayed and talked to him and asked him how he felt about things. If he was truly an abuser, and if she was truly frightened of him as she claimed, she would have left, like, immediately. Common sense, people!!!


^^^Beautifully put.


The fact that she makes this comparison at all is PROOF POSITIVE that she considers Sandor a romantic prospect!!!!


I think it has something to do with her final explicit memory of the kiss: "He took a song and a kiss and left me nothing but a bloody cloak." Her growing resentment toward him for leaving her is casting a slightly different tone onto the kiss. Though she never indicates that the kiss was unwelcome, she acknowledges that it was "taken", and then he just leaves. It's the classic "wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am" scenario, LOL. How can he KISS me and then just LEAVE?? She clearly believes that he got more out of their encounter than she did. Which begs the question: what more does she want from him???