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Post by katie on Apr 21, 2015 19:58:34 GMT
One of the reasons I really hope we'll get a Sansa baby at some point (sired by Sandor, of course) is because we haven't really had a good pregnancy/birth storyline in this series yet. At least not one with a happy outcome.
The babies within the current ASOIAF storyline thus far include:
DANY -- Pregnant for a hot second before unwittingly sacrificing the kid in exchange for Drogo's life; possibly miscarried Daario's baby after she rode off with Drogon
DALLA -- Dies giving birth to Mance's son; baby is secretly switched with Gilly's so Melisandre won't burn it alive.
GILLY -- Gives birth to her own half-sister (shudder), which is interchangeably referred to as The Abomination and The Monster; switched with Mance's baby in case Mel wants to have a Babyque.
ROSLIN FREY -- Currently pregs with Edmure's kid; scared that Walder will have Edmure executed if it's a boy.
WALDA BOLTON -- Knocked up by Roose, who assumes Ramsay will kill it anyway so nbd.
JEYNE WESTERLING? -- Her mom gave her moon tea disguised as a fertility tonic, so it's unlikely she's preggo, but I have seen people speculate that she is.
Am I missing any?
Anyhoo, as you can see, the babymaking biz in Westeros right now ain't exactly rainbows and unicorns. Aside from Dany, the pregnancies we have seen so far have all been from secondary characters. I'd LOVE to see an actual POV character experience not just a pregnancy but an actual BIRTH and then new motherhood. Without some great tragedy befalling either her or the child (or both). And what better candidate for such a thing than Sansa?!
Yes, this series is ripe for some positive reproduction!!!
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 21, 2015 21:48:51 GMT
What's this now? A topic after my own heart!
If Sansa is not having a baby by the end of this series, then GRRM is the biggest troll. I agree with you that we have not gotten a positive birth story yet, and with the "wasteland" motif/nihilism themes we have running through this series, healthy sincere love and "postive reproduction" is a must for any kind of happy ending (and yes, bittersweet endings have "sweet" in them as well as bitter, I say to all the naysayers).
Sansa is the ideal candidate for motherhood, and as a mother myself, this is not a lowered expectation for her (and forgive me for getting my hackles up, but sometimes people can be a bit dismissive of women who want to be mothers). I love GRRM for the respect he shows mothers and Brienne and Catelyn's conversations about it prove that.
First of all, when Sansa is betrothed to Joff, though she makes some noise about being queen, she is focused mainly on loving him, being a good wife and having his golden haired babies.
When she is betrothed to Willas, she dreams of the sons she will give him, what she will name them, and of the daughter who looked like Arya (ahem).
Sansa mothers Sweetrobin, and when he asks her if she is his mother now, she says that she is (even though it was a lie, kindly meant).
She looks like her mother Catelyn--repeated often by several different people
Petyr gives her a new identity and names her after HIS mother (more than a little gross, Petyr).
She has numerous associations with the Mother goddess--more than even the Maiden, I think. In the Battle of Blackwater, when she is with Cersei, she plays the Mother while Cersei tricks herself up in white, mimicking the Maiden (Sansa even notices this explicitly). Sansa sings the Mother's Hymn twice, and she prays to the Mother for Sandor.
Her period--the onset of her fertility and the ability to bear a child--is a MAJOR plot point in her arc.
Now, in her newest chapter, she discusses the "shame" of bearing a bastard with Sweetrobin. They discuss all the other bastards being born in the Vale--including Harry's two. You have the Corbray line of inheritance being shaken up because the elder Corbray has a fertile, pregnant wife.
AND to rehash stuff that I've (and half the internet) rehashed before, Sandor and Sansa had a metaphorical bedding, while she bled with her first period. She sang the Mother's Hymn to Sandor--in effect becoming a "Mother" figure as she gives mercy to the Hound. So, Sandor with his dagger out, makes Sansa a "Mother," by forcing the song.
Now, take a look at all the FATHER imagery surrounding Sandor!
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Post by katie on Apr 21, 2015 23:25:32 GMT
Heehee! It's funny because I am NOT a mother, nor do I even want kids (which is just as well cuz I probably can't have them anyway), and yet the very thought of Sansa having her babies just tickles me!! (as long they're with Sandor) I'm such a goddamn cynic in real-life, but somehow this series brings out the hopeless romantic in me, go figure! Yes, and for me, I think the "bittersweet" ending for Sansa would be to finally have a child like she's always wanted but in an unconventional/unexpected way. As in, it will probably be a bastard, but the father will be someone she actually loves, though he may not be present in her/their life in the end. I agree with you, if a woman's ultimate goal in life is to be a mother, then KUDOS TO HER, because there are far too many women out there who have kids they don't even want or had for the wrong reasons. And Sansa is the perfect candidate to be a mother. Even if it's a bastard, you know she'll love it with all her heart. Because, when it comes down to it, all Sansa really wants in life is LOVE. To BE loved, and to love others. She's so full of goddamn love she will feel empathy toward people who have abused her. That is NOT a weakness, and I will punch anyone who claims it is, LOL. It seems like she dreams of her future children often (and I love that Sandor actually refers to her future "sons" on the show, sigh, thanks for that, GRRM), and Sansa's dreams aren't just frivolities. Seriously though. What is UP with that....  Yes, many people miss that, automatically tacking her with the Maiden. I guess because she's young and still a virgin. But her maternal instincts are stronger than many ACTUAL mothers in the series. In fact, it seems like Motherhood in general takes kind of a hit in this series, no? Of all the female POV characters, we have Dany (lost two human babies; her dragon babies are mass murderers; that whole "mhysa" thing ain't working out too well either), Catelyn (her husband executed, her eldest son killed right in front of her, her youngest sons presumed dead, as is Arya, and Sansa a hostage, and then her own throat slit, hooray), and Cersei ('nuff said). (Dis)Honorable mention to Melisandre and her Shadow Baby, lol. Anyway, these women suffer A LOT via their motherhood. And they CAUSE a lot of suffering due to their motherhood. There really needs to be a shake-up with this recurring theme at some point. Yes. Sex, love, and fertility are the main themes of her character development, so for that NOT to culminate in a loving relationship (even if it's brief) that results in a child would just be... a waste. And who is there at the onset of this momentous occasion? The Dog Who Can Smell Lies (and when she-wolves are in heat, heehee). And not just once but THREE TIMES -- the first when she experiences her first cramp on Maegor's roof; the second when she dreams of his "sword" (ahem) cutting open her belly and waking up in her blood-stained bed; the third during the BoBW when Sandor comes to her room. I mean, GEEZ, George, can you make it a little more obvious??? (LOL... yes, he can apparently, considering how many people STILL don't get/see it.) Well, here's hoping that this all doesn't just remain a metaphor. That their relationship will finally one day graduate from merely symbolically sexual to ACTUALLY sexual. After all, dogs and wolves are reproductively compatible!  Do tell!!!!!!!!! (haha, I know, you've written about it before, but I love reading it!) |
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 22, 2015 14:30:57 GMT
You don't need to ask me twice! I was going to look up a meta I wrote and link it here, but confession time: I haven't been tagging my posts and my tumblr is a big mess. So I couldn't find it, so why don't I start afresh! (Obsessive? Moi?)
-Sandor is Joffrey's father figure. Cersei flat out says it (in AFFC, I think), where she thinks about how she would have made him man-at-arms if he had stuck around. I'm always surprised by the lack of venom when Cersei thinks about the Hound, by the way, even though he was Joffrey's sworn shield. She doesn't waste much time feeling bothered that he ran off--just seems a bit puzzled by it. I could be wrong, but I always felt like Cersei held the Hound in a higher regard than even she was aware of, if that makes sense. She seemed quick to elevate his status--Kingsguard, potential man-at-arms, so she saw his potential as more than just a dog to be fed under the table.
Though Sandor doesn't shed any tears at Joffrey's death, Sansa seems to think he might be upset by it. She even thinks how he had been Joffrey's sworn shield for years. That's not directly a Sandor as father scene, but it does show that Sansa thinks he might have some tender feelings for the child he'd guarded since he'd been born.
Here Sansa is worried that Joffrey will not be restrained by his mother at his nameday tournament. He's a murderous king, but he's also like a child. Cersei is not there, but his "babysitter" Sandor Clegane is.
After the Dontos incident, we have Joffrey parroting Sandor's words (they are "gnats, not knights"), and petulantly ending the tourney
You have a little children's squabble being deflected in large part by the Hound and Sansa. Even though Sansa has the folorn little thought about marrying Tommen, we also see that she is thinking of him in a very motherly way--those chubby little legs pumping as he runs. That's not the description you give of someone you really WANT to marry. This scene always plays like the Hound and Sansa parenting a mob of unruly children at a really lame birthday party. Sansa is chiding Joff, telling him what he ought to do. The Hound is deflecting Joff's mood with humor. Between the two of them, they manage Joff, Myrcella and Tommen quite well under the circumstances.
There is the obvious father connection with Sandor posing as Arya's father in the village. He may not be the most gentle with Arya--I doubt she would describe him as "not ungentle" as he's shaking her and rolling her up burrito style--but he provides. He feeds her, keeps her safe. He never thinks of selling her off to anyone except her family-Robb, Lysa, Blackfish--he never suggests anyone she's not related to. In addition, I find some of the wording of the descriptions evocative of his fatherly nature with Arya:
When they are on the ferry, you have the first incident of Arya being mistaken for Sandor's child:
Then you have the villagers who think she's his daughter:
So, why would GRRM continually have people mistake Arya for the Hound's son? There is the potential resemblance of dark hair/grey eyes (which makes Sansa's dream of a daughter who looks like Arya all the more compelling as everyone has said 100x, I know). Is it just the resemblance? Is he particularly fatherly with her? It's such a natural assumption. Why don't people think Arya is his squire? his prisoner? His anything else?
ETA:
Despite my general dislike of the show, that line and the way Rory McCann delivered made my romantic heart squeeze. That little pause he gave before he mentioned her sons. Sigh.
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 22, 2015 15:48:50 GMT
To explore the fatherly impulses of Sandor Clegane a bit more, I tend to think his first interactions with Sansa are meant to be caring, but not romantic. His interest in her is multi-layered, and in retrospect, you can see where GRRM was laying the groundwork for romance, but still, he calls Sansa "child" and lifts her from her bed. He wipes her lip gently. Both moments that can have differing interpretations, but initially, you could see these moments as him being kind to a young girl--not having romantic intentions. It's not until she starts to mature and he notices her new maturity on the Serpentine that their interactions take on a more directly romantic charge.
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Post by katie on Apr 22, 2015 17:23:17 GMT
I wonder, though, because she doesn't question it at all when she first hears about Saltpans. She's basically just like, "Yep, whatta douche." I remember being really offended on his behalf that she was so quick to believe what she had heard and have no doubts whatsoever, after having him in her service for so long. It makes me think she really didn't think much of him at all, or perhaps considered him interchangeable with Gregor (as so many others seem to). Jaime is the only one who (eventually) expressed any doubts about it. Yes, another example of Sansa regarding Sandor as an actual HUMAN who might actually FEEL things. What's also interesting about that passage -- it's part of the whole "She wondered what had become of Sandor Clegane" train of thought -- is that she never questions whether Sandor is dead or alive. She seems to just assume he is alive. Somewhere. YES! Sandor is not the ONLY babysitter here, LOL! Sansa is only 11-12 in this scene, and yet she and Sandor seem to be the only actual grown-ups on the premises, lololol. Makes you wonder how often Sandor had to play this role with the Baratheon/Lannister kids. Omigosh, no wonder he snapped, heehee! In fairness, though, he seems to have at least a passing fondness for Myrcella and Tommen, based on his reactions to them in this scene ("She has you there"; "The boy has courage"). Though, by Cersei's own account, Tommen was terrified of Sandor, LOL. I wonder what Myrcella thought of him... I'm picturing Sandor turning to the ferryman after that last line and giving him a look like, "Kids. Amirite?" lmao On the show, when they are at the inn, Polliver assumes Arya is Sandor's, like, sex slave or something??  But in the books, it's never mentioned whom Gregor's men thought she could be. They don't seem to pay her much mind at all. They all seem to know each other fairly well, what with them calling him "Sandor" and Sandor saying things like they will rob the innkeeper when they are done drinking "like you always do", so they probably know that she is not (a) his daughter, nor (b) a sexual conquest. They didn't seem particularly jarred by her presence either (and Sandor directly referred to her as a girl), so who the heck did they think she was??? I second, third, and forth that sigh. LOL. Also the way his eyes kinda flit over her face before he says it, probably a hundred different regrets going through his mind.... Oh man, as disappointed as I am that that scene didn't play out more like the books, I think this is the next best thing. I'm glad GRRM made the decision to show Sandor's TRUE intentions that night and allowed him to be tender with her. I think it was GRRM's way of clarifying for people that the scene in the book wasn't meant to be "abusive" or "traumatic". Not to mention the scene just before Joffrey has Sansa publicly beaten and stripped in the yard. The chapter opens with him standing in her bedchamber as she is getting dressed. How long was he there for, I wonder? Was he the one who woke her up and told her to get dressed in the first place? Or did Joffrey send him while she was already dressing to speed the process along? She doesn't seem bothered at all by him watching her; she only seems concerned by the expression on his face, which seems to portend that something unpleasant is waiting for her (and she is right). Anyway, my point being, she doesn't seem shy or modest about dressing in front of him. I wonder if that has to do with how he saw her in nothing but her "thin shift" when he lifted her out of her bed before. As for his part, he may still consider her just a "child" and therefore not moved by seeing her in a state of undress. Anyway, I think you're right, though, I don't think his "romantic" feelings for her were immediate. I think he was intrigued by her, something drew him to her, and obviously she piqued his interest by constantly stealing glances at him while on the kingsroad. And just to put the cherry on top of the Sandor-Father Symbolism sundae, the very first time she encounters him, she mistakes him for her father at first.(!) |
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 22, 2015 18:19:56 GMT
Well, according to Jon's first chapter, Myrcella is "insipid" so she may not have many thoughts at all about the big man who hangs around Joffy all the time  . Arya doesn't seem to think much of Myrcella either, based upon Arya's encounters with her in Winterfell. Sansa thinks she's ladylike at first and would make a superior sister to Arya, but she doesn't spend much time thinking about her otherwise. I like the spark Myrcella shows to Joffrey--she's "haughty" with him--and she does run to tend to Tommen. In Dorne, Myrcella seems to do okay and likes playing board games with her intended. Tommen is a sweet, ridiculous chubster who likes kittens. All in all though, I don't get much personality out of either of them really--pleasant enough but kind of blanks all the same--which to me makes Sandor's off-hand "affection" or regard of them make sense. I know, LOL! Makes you wonder, doesn't it? In the books, Arya is very little and boyish so I can't imagine they were thinking she was a lover or something, so who knows? Maybe they thought it was a Dunk and Egg kind of situation. The wandering warrior takes on a child to train as squire, give him some skills, like with Dunk and his knight. But he did call her "girl" right in front of them. They were focused on taking him down though, so maybe they just didn't think to question it. Perhaps Sandor had a tendency to take in strays? I always wonder about the wording of that passage. It does make it seem like he's there in the room with her. Maybe she's behind a screen or something? I know nothing really about medieval clothing, but if she were wearing a shift of some kind, wouldn't she just have an outer dress to go over it? Like, it wouldn't be as if she were stripping down to her skivvies in front of him. But no, there's no indication of perving going on. Which takes me to Sandor's living arrangements with Arya in the village. They thought she was his daughter, and I'm assuming they had to share a room, which is surprisingly funny to me. The Hound playing the father role to the extent he actually had to live with her in the same room just tickles me, especially when she describes him drinking himself to sleep with ale each night. Can you imagine her reaction to that? Thanks for being a stupid drunk, "Dad"! Or when he's drunk and broody and talking about sending a letter to Lysa, just chatting before they fall asleep. It's a terribly depressing sequence of events, but you also see them in this domestic arrangement which is kind of touching. |
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Post by katie on Apr 22, 2015 19:07:00 GMT
LOL, true. Blank slates are easier to deal with it, so Sandor probably wasn't bothered much by them.
Hahaha, yes! The dog takes in the stray wolf-pup! heehee! You're right. And if they knew that Sandor was on the lam, they might have just assumed she was just some random lost kid (there seem to be a lot of those around these days) that he happened to be traveling with.
I think they were both too pre-occupied with what was about to happen with Joffrey anyway. She was already nervous not knowing what was happening, and he was dreading having to deliver her up for the slaughter. :-(
But no, I don't think she was behind a screen, because she can see his face, and it also doesn't seem like any handmaidens are helping her, so this must have been a spontaneous thing. Hence she may very well have just thrown her clothes over her shift. Then again, she's been known to sleep in the nude... Perhaps we can assume this was NOT one of those occasions??
Indeed, the whole thing is just so, so sad and yet kind of endearing at the same time. If only the two of them hadn't been so wrapped up in their own personal tragedies, they could have actually been a comfort to each other. It's a shame it never was able to grow into that, but it's just as well I suppose, since Arya is not the Stark girl with whom Sandor is bonded. And I have a feeling that Sandor was deliberately (though perhaps unconsciously) keeping up a wall with Arya to keep from getting too close simply because she was Sansa's sister. He was both resentful that he was with HER instead of Sansa, but he was also cautious about letting another Stark girl get under his skin (too late? LOL). By the same token, I think Arya was resentful that Sandor wasn't taking as good care of her as perhaps she thought he should. When she mentions how he rage-chops the wood and then falls asleep from exhaustion without even building a fire, she says she "hates" him for that... Like an angry kid being neglected by their drunk parent(s). "You should be paying more attention to MY needs!!!" Not realizing that Sandor has a thousand needs and issues of his OWN and is ill-equipped to meet her expectations. Though, under the circumstances, he still did a helluva good job looking after her. Up until the end... And, again, I think Arya was more pissed off that Sandor was just another adult in her life that let her down and abandoned her.
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But in the books, it's never mentioned whom Gregor's men thought she could be. They don't seem to pay her much mind at all. They all seem to know each other fairly well, what with them calling him "Sandor" and Sandor saying things like they will rob the innkeeper when they are done drinking "like you always do", so they probably know that she is not (a) his daughter, nor (b) a sexual conquest. They didn't seem particularly jarred by her presence either (and Sandor directly referred to her as a girl), so who the heck did they think she was??? 
. Arya doesn't seem to think much of Myrcella either, based upon Arya's encounters with her in Winterfell. Sansa thinks she's ladylike at first and would make a superior sister to Arya, but she doesn't spend much time thinking about her otherwise. I like the spark Myrcella shows to Joffrey--she's "haughty" with him--and she does run to tend to Tommen. In Dorne, Myrcella seems to do okay and likes playing board games with her intended. Tommen is a sweet, ridiculous chubster who likes kittens. All in all though, I don't get much personality out of either of them really--pleasant enough but kind of blanks all the same--which to me makes Sandor's off-hand "affection" or regard of them make sense.