|
|
Post by katie on Apr 27, 2015 6:36:18 GMT
Welp, there it is. It's officially happening. Sansa is marrying Ramsay Bolton. And even expecting it to happen for months now didn't ease the agony whatsoever. And she's not even marrying Ramsay as fake-Arya; she's marrying him as Actual Sansa. WTF??? LF tried to explain it away by saying that her marriage to Tyrion was never consummated, so it wasn't a REAL marriage.... Only, it totally was, conducted by the High Septon in the presence of the King and court and everything. Yeah, whatever you say, guys.  Soooo where's this "badass" Sansa with all this "agency" and "sexuality" we were promised/threatened with this season?? She certainly didn't seem like she was "manipulating" her "partner-in-crime" Littlefinger when she was freaking out about his shitty plan to wed her to the son of a man that betrayed her family. And by the end of the episode, LF had a raven from Cersei commanding him to come to KL asap, so he's not even going to be WITH Sansa for the rest of the season it seems. Yeah, he's just gonna leave her there to fend for herself I guess. Not just against Ramsay but against his equally psychotic girlfriend. Whose name is Myranda. That makes me wonder if D&D hadn't been planning this from the beginning, that they deliberately named her Myranda after Myranda Royce because they knew they'd be hooking up Sansa and Ramsay eventually. Uggggghhhhh... I wish the Hound were here...  |
|
|
|
Post by eyesofmist on Apr 27, 2015 11:02:00 GMT
This is as shitty as it can be. I really don't know how you can put up with this show any more. This reminded me the persecution in Westeros.org aganist people who supported SanSan on the grounds that their speculations were fanfiction and George didn't approve of fanfiction. What the hell is this then? I think this show is any writer's nightmare,the worst possible scenario he could imagine as regards his/her story and it's OK because they paid for it,they paid so that they could use Martin's work as a starting point for their shitty gruesome pornish fanfiction.
Apart form that, this must mean that Tyrion&Sansa's marriage won't play an important role in the end,that they won't end up toegether. Or is it possible that they meet again and live as man and wife as if nothing happened? How could Sansa be married again if her first husband is still alive and nobody asked for an annulment of their marriage? I know this show is absolutely dumb but this makes me think Tyrion will end up with someone else, not Sansa. I guess you were right from the beginning and they will make a sort of Theon&Sansa romance,Greyworm style,as Theon was castrated by Ramsay,or pehaps he wasn't in the show.Was he?
|
|
|
|
Post by sillierthings on Apr 27, 2015 14:29:44 GMT
I like Eyesofmist's positive spin with this meaning that Sansa and Tyrion are not going to get back together, but honestly, not a single plot in this show follows the book. It may use the outline of a plot, but they are changing the details to such an extent, it's in no way the same story. So Sansa is using her sexuality and gaining agency, eh? What I saw last night was a young girl tricked into traveling to Winterfell for an arranged marriage to the sadistic son of the man who murdered her brother and mother. When she reacted with horror, Littlefinger grabbed her face and got into her space in a way that was excessively controlling and beyond creepy. It was very upsetting to see him hold her head like that while she weeping. I saw the pimp who sold her into this marriage offer to let Lord Bolton inspect her goods to make sure she was still a virgin. Based upon what we all know about Jeyne Poole and based upon Bryan Cogman and other actors' comments, we know it's likely Sansa is going to suffer some sexual assault and torture in coming episodes. So here are my questions: 1. How is Sansa playing Littlefinger? He has sold her. She has ZERO control. She has about as much agency as one of his prostitutes. 2. How are Littlefinger and Sansa a "gruesome twosome" when he's dropped her off with the Boltons as he skips off to King's Landing? I know I'm not saying anything Katie and others haven't said, but it's beyond horrible. I no longer think this show is going to "spoil" book readers. I think D & D are making a buck for HBO. It's not about staying faithful to the plot. So, my one consolation is that truly after this season the books are the books, the show is a shadow of a shadow of a shadow of Martin's work. P.S. Have you noticed how many bitchy girl-fights these people put into the show? Arya v. the Waif--with hot man Jaquen looking on (and that's the one good part of this mess--I don't mind Jaquen and Arya). Myranda and Sansa fighting over Ramsay (at least it was teased). Dany-whore vs. Brown-haired whore who gives sex away for free apparently (  ?? cuz everyone's gotta have that Tyrion junk) fighting for customers. Margaerey v. Cersei (loosely, loosely based on text) fighting over Tommen. And in previous seasons, Meera vs. Osha fighting over Bran, Shae selling out Sansa over Tyrion... It's almost as if they think women are only interesting when they are cattily fighting over a man. |
|
|
|
Post by katie on Apr 27, 2015 14:54:35 GMT
eyesofmist, to answer your question, Theon was most definitely castrated by Ramsay in the show. Even though it was only hinted at in the books, they made a point to be quite gratuitous about it on the show. So, yeah, no peen for Theon. On last night's episode, he kept trying to avoid Sansa so she wouldn't recognize him. I assume he'll come out of hiding eventually. Perhaps when Ramsay has him "warm up" his new bride for him...  Yeah, and I love how he told her, "If you don't want this, we'll got back on the horses and turn around, BUT [makes lame case for vengeance]." And she stands there for a few seconds and then turns around and joins LF again. WHAAAAAA??? She threatened to STARVE herself rather than marry a Bolton, but then LF tells her it's all in the name of sweet, sweet revenge, and suddenly she's okay with it??? Oh wait, I forgot, this is Bizarro World Sansa where she likes the idea of vengeance and throwing people out of the moon door. When Ramsay says to LF "I won't hurt her. I give you my word.", it made me wonder if Ramsay will actually use his minions (aka Theon and Myranda) to inflict the torture on Sansa... thereby by keeping his "word". Again, Oh, and also, wtf was up with LF telling Ramsay that he didn't know much about him?? I thought EVERYBODY knew about the Bastard of Bolton?? And isn't LF Mr In-The-Know?? Wouldn't HE, of all people, DEFINITELY know about Ramsay's reputation?? Or was that just D&D's lame way of absolving LF for selling Sansa to the biggest sadist in Westeros? For all intents and purposes, she IS one of his prostitutes. You made an excellent point about how he spoke about her like she was a "product" when he offered to Roose to have her "inspected", like she was a fucking slab of beef. Three episodes in, and all I have seen of their "relationship" is how she clearly loathes him and how he is trying to get rid of her as quickly as possible. People actually SHIP this shit? ? Yeah, I noticed that when they left out the Valonqar prophecy. Cersei's doomed relationship with her "soulmate" Jaime is apparently not as interesting as her petty little rivalry with Margaery. Speaking of.... MARG AND TOMMEN? ? I was PHYSICALLY disgusted by that. OMFG. I thought Natalie Dormer said she would never do a scene like that??? WTF?? And then when she goes and BRAGS about it to Cersei??? How fucking tasteless! Yet most of the reactions from the dudebros this morning is "HELL YEAH, GET YOU SOME TOMMEN!!" The same dudebros who are violently anti-SanSan. Soooo, Sandor and Sansa having genuine (NON-consummated) feelings for each other is a BAD thing, but Margaery clearly manipulating an ADOLESCENT BOY through sex is OKAY? |
|
|
|
Post by sillierthings on Apr 27, 2015 15:39:17 GMT
The double standard makes my head spin. Boo to Natalie Dormer, btw. I can only imagine how much worse that scene was supposed to be if this was the result of her fighting against a sexual scene with Tommen. Tommen is supposed to be TWELVE!! But, hurr-hurr, every guy wants it bad. He wants to do it everyday. Hurr-hurr.
And you know, I don't get the dudebros against SanSan. Is it because the Hound should not be sexualized or is it that they don't want Sansa sexualized or they don't want to see a mutual respect that may eventually include sexuality? Or is it simply for a man to look at a woman with love and respect and not just want to fuck her means that he's soft? I'm thinking it's that last one, isn't it?
In addition, it struck me that while it's considered funny and natural for a 12-year-old boy to want it with an older woman, and absolutely okay to show on screen, for an adolescent girl to have sexualized thoughts is not allowed. And I have a feeling it is less to do with the fact that they have a problem showing her relationship on screen because it's absolutely okay to show a young girl as the OBJECT of creepy advances by old men: Let them kiss her, talk about "inspecting" her and have her nearly raped. That's fine because she doesn't act like she wants it. If her sexuality is ever portrayed as something she desires and uses for her own pleasure, then she's just a slut. Even the cool sluts like Marg and Cersei only do it to get power.
|
|
|
|
Post by katie on Apr 27, 2015 17:40:30 GMT
Well, something else I have noticed amongst the dudebro population is that they are TOTALLY FINE with Sandor having some sort of tender (though non-romantic) feelings toward Arya, and some even seem to ship Sandor with Brienne, even though they spent 10 minutes beating the ever-loving shit out of each other on the show (and yet they accuse SanSans of being fanficky???)... So, it seems to me that it has more to do with Sansa herself. They just don't like Sansa, period; she doesn't conform to their idea of what a "badass" like Sandor deserves, but Arya and Brienne are "badasses" themselves and therefore more worthy of Sandor's respect and affection. It's basically misogynistic fuckery at its very worst.
Yes, a scene like that would NEVER happen if the genders were reversed, unless it was clearly NON-consensual on the girl's part. That's why I think that, if SanSan ever does become a reality on the show, it will be framed as some kind of desperate, shameful act between a traumatized, unstable girl and a man who just can't resist the temptation because hey, he's only human after all. And Sansa certainly WILL be traumatized and desperate after this season, won't she? :-(
|
|
|
|
Post by sillierthings on Apr 27, 2015 18:08:02 GMT
Yes, I agree. If Sansa and the Hound do reunite, she's going to be broken and desperate. Given that they did not show any of the finer points of their relationship in King's Landing, and given that as far as the show viewers know, the last time Sansa thought about the Hound was when he said goodbye, I see no way for any relationship between Sansa and Sandor to play out in a positive way. If they do it, it will come across as skeevy and twisted. The sad, desperate girl. The broken man.
I've read some other people's reactions to the episode and how obvious it is that Sansa has no agency at all, that the idea of agency is being used against her. The manipulation of this girl on screen is desperately sad. In the novels, it's almost as bad, but we have Sansa's thoughts. We see her strength. Just as Arya has her Needle to keep that vestige of the real Arya alive, so Sansa has her Unkiss memory grounding her. In the show, Arya still has Needle. What does Sansa have? More manipulation, more men to buy and sell and use her.
I know I mentioned it before, but giving Sansa Jeyne's storyline feels like they are punishing a character they really don't like. Let's stick it to the girly-girl. Ugh, she's so whiny, boring, lame, etc...At the same time, I don't know if these are conscious choices. The writers speak as if they truly believe Sansa is empowered. Do they not see what this storyline is? Are they just pretending? I don't want to overstate it, and I don't even know how to explain my line of thought. So many others have responded to this new development so much more eloquently, but this kind of feels like revenge porn or something. The pretty girl who should be the trophy for their hero (Tyrion in this case), is not, and in the story, she has the audacity to have feelings for the biggest badass of them all, The Hound, who couldn't possibly be seen with such a lame chick. So, let's torture her. Let's pair her with a sadistic rapist, who hurts and abuses his wife, makes her have sex with dogs and be molested by other men. The way they have pared down the plot, there is no other reason to include the Jeyne storyline except to let the pretty girl know she chose wrong by not giving it up to St. Tyrion.
All my opinion. I know I cannot back it up, but it's ugly, whatever the reasons are.
|
|
|
|
Post by katie on Apr 27, 2015 19:26:06 GMT
OR, you know, maybe they are deliberately putting Sansa through so much trauma because they think the only way she could ever legitimately fall in love with Sandor down the road is if her standards are waaaayyyyyy low at that point. "Well, he's ugly, and kinda mean, but he saved me a couple times and said he'd never hurt me and he's my last best option, so sure, why not..." So, basically, they would have Sansa SETTLE for Sandor, because everyone else is just that bad.  This is, of course, all dependent on whether they actually bring Sandor back at all. I'd like to believe that the reason they had Podrick say "You beat the Hound" as opposed to "You KILLED the Hound" was an indication of this. Plus that creepy little cameo of Frankengregor having a conniption under the sheet in Qyburn's lab... Many people believe that "Cleganebowl" will occur because Cersei will discover Sansa's whereabouts and send Ser Robert Strong after her, and Sandor will swoop in all heroic and defeat him. Welp, Sansa's presence in Winterfell will not remain secret for long, especially with LF heading back to KL at Cersei's request and UnGregor almost ready for his big comeback... Sigh, whatevs. |
|
|
|
Post by eyesofmist on Apr 27, 2015 21:40:42 GMT
I think you are right here, sex is great but Luuuv is lame, this is what f.....ing dudebros think, I'm afraid. It's OK if he fucks her but not OK if he loves her and loses his freedom, detachment and aloofness becoming a softy.
There's also the problem that Sansa wants Sandor,this guys don't want Sansa to find real love,only a good fuck, that's it. Love is cheesy and lame, sex is the best thing ever,after fighting, manipulating and kicking ass, or course.
|
|
|
|
Post by eyesofmist on Apr 27, 2015 21:45:07 GMT
(puke)This is so true, if Dany wants to have sex with Daario they say she's stupid,but it's OK for the men to lust after hot women. Women are not allowed to enjoy sex for the sake of it in this series.Wanting love and sex with a man of their choice is having delusional expectations. If they want a handsome husband they are shallow,whereas it's understandable for ugly men not to want women as ugly as they are and go after the hot chicks. |
|
|
|
Post by eyesofmist on Apr 27, 2015 22:06:17 GMT
Again,I must agree. This is it. A lot of me identify with Tyrion,the smart underdog. He is unattractive and not strong or athletic but considers himself the smartest in the story. I guess this defines too many male readers and show watchers,they aren't alpha males like Sandor Clegane but they can be very smart,of that's how they see themselves,perhaps to overcompensate for what they are missing in the physical power department. All these guys resent the pretty girly girl who wants a cutie like her (Loras,for instance) and then seems interested in the ultimate alpha male Sandor is. The Hound may have a sad story behind him but he can beat the pulp out of most males,so not many couch potatoes can identify with him, I'm afraid.
They not only dislike Sansa but also resent her,for not liking one of their kind. I'm afraid this explains what happens here.
Why is SanSan fanficky? Because women like the idea and SanSan is about what Sansa wants. Tyrion doesn't really like Sansa but she's hot and then he wants to have her. He is like all those dudebros who want they hottest chick just because she is the hottest chick, the tropy,not because they really like her. They can't forgive Sansa for not wanting Tyrion,she reminds them of all the pretty girls who didn't like them and didn't want to go to bed with them
This would make sense for the show, but this would mean that some show watchers expect Sandor to come back and that he has feelings for Sansa. Do show watchers expect the Hound to come back or do they belive he is dead for good?
|
|
?? cuz everyone's gotta have that Tyrion junk) fighting for customers. Margaerey v. Cersei (loosely, loosely based on text) fighting over Tommen. And in previous seasons, Meera vs. Osha fighting over Bran, Shae selling out Sansa over Tyrion...
