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Post by sillierthings on Apr 30, 2015 18:28:44 GMT
AANNND I just read the spoilers online for the big "traumatic" episode. I'm out. I'll talk the books, but no more show.
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Post by katie on Apr 30, 2015 18:44:38 GMT
Not sure if you guys saw this the other day, but it was a quote by Sophie regarding her reaction to finding out Sansa was marrying Ramsay:
"Oh" indeed.
I wonder if all that lip service she payed before about Sansa becoming The Badass Manipulator was all BEFORE she read the script... like maybe she was just echoing whatever D&D had told her ("a pretty little bird who repeats everything she hears"). Because she seems to be just as surprised/disappointed as the rest of us.
I also wonder if she read the Alayne preview chapter when GRRM released it. I wonder if she even cares...
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Post by katie on Apr 30, 2015 18:44:58 GMT
Oh dear. I am deliberately avoiding spoilers, I don't know why, I guess I want to be pissed off in real time?
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 30, 2015 19:04:45 GMT
Sorry. I won't spoil anything, but yeah, I cannot imagine Sophie Turner knew what was in store for Season 5. I don't know when they started filming and saw scripts, but if she is as disappointed as that interview seems to indicate, she's either really good are repeating what they tell her to say or she really did not know.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 30, 2015 21:21:12 GMT
There are several disgusting things in this reasoning that she has a choice and she deserves what she gets for making poor choices. She seems a big whinig idiot in the show,let's face it. Her qualities aren't higlighted whereas her flaws are to a great extent. What I dislike most is this idea that someone deserves to be mistreated because he/she is stupid and dumb. This isn't true,stupid people aren't the one's to blame, evil people are. The problem is that nowadays too many smartass jerks are forgiven because they are clever and daring. But if you are stupid, find the corner to die,nobody is going to feel pity for you loss.
This also reminds me of this horrible tendency to blame the victims,because people feels safer by doing this so that they can believe those terrible things would never happen to them because ,unlike those victims,they are strong and smart. People too often try to find a reason why a victim got what he/she got because they are afraid to consider that ramdom violece happens,and it can happen to anyone,that we can't always prevent bad things from happening,not even by being carful and intelligent.
I'm sick of hearing people emphasize that women shouldn't show erotic pictures to their partners because if these men show them to anyone they like it's the woman's fault for being stupid,not the man's for being an asshole. Of course everyone should learn that they must be careful,but please, don't blame the victims but the culprits. Others blame women for being abused or raped saying that they were in the wrong place,trusted the wrong person,wore the wrong clothes,was in the streerts at the wrong hour, and so on.
There is something else that bothers me very much,if Sansa is supposed to be manipulative and strong,a dark sexed up woman,then it is an even better target for a BDSM fantasy. I mean, they usually portray strong women in a former position of privilege or empowered women "put in their place" by men. Abusing bratty inexperienced rich girls is another popular topic. She fulfils both stereotypes,I'm afraid, so this seems too similar to a dark fantasy of the worst kind designed by these two with the excuse they may choose,but they are doing this for the "thrill" of certain type of dudebros. This is more than nasty because ASOIAF doesn't deserve this trahsy "fanfiction" and neither do the watchers who sit in front of their TV to see a good fantasy and adveture story,not porn for a certain type of dudebros.
In the books this is completely different,because Martin makes Jayne's torture and Theon's absolutely disgusting and tragic. Many people have said George can't write sexy scenes but I disagree, I think most sex scenes in ASOIAF aren't supposed to be sexy and aren't written as sexy.
I like what you said about all those Jayne's, the victims of so much greed, hunger for power and greed. They are there to show the readers what happens when the world is driven by those dark forces and not by honour and compasion, or justice. There's no chance for the one's who aren't privileged,powerful and rich. It's important to see that Jayne suffers what Sansa doens't because it shows very clearly that the one's who are not highborn or hold an important claim are completely expendable and treated like trash. Sansa suffers but she is not raped not because she is lucky but because her captors think she is valuable for them in some way,some sort of inversion. Jayne doens't have this,see how she is treated. Martin is showing this with her hearbreaking story. It makes no sense to lose these nuances by placing Sansa in her place,unless you (D&D) seek to fulfil a dark fantasy where a spoilt, stupid, snobbish,but very pretty girl,who is dumb enough to think she is a manipulative dominatrix apprentice,is taught how wrong she was and still is, again.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 30, 2015 21:26:08 GMT
I guess she really believed she would become a player by Littlefinger's side and she was really surprised when she read the script. Many people on Westeros.org used to say she was more interesting because she was with Littlfinger learning to play the "game" . She was one of the ones who really believed that bullshit.
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Post by katie on Apr 30, 2015 22:24:06 GMT
That seems to be the key right there. Sansa has been stripped of almost all her redeeming qualities that make her such an interesting character and has been reduced to nothing more than the Token Victim. "Well, we need someone to be tortured by Ramsay but we don't wanna bring in a whole new character... What's Sansa up to right now??" It's like they just keep her in this little box under their beds and only take her out when it's time for her to be abused some more. Ugh.
It's hard enough just to get book-readers to appreciate her; the show makes it virtually IMPOSSIBLE.
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Post by sillierthings on May 1, 2015 2:08:21 GMT
Okay, so I may have over-reacted. Take internet rumors with a grain of salt. Apparently those spoilers are not from a great source--BUT STILL! If it's even half as bad, I don't know what to think, and I still don't think I can bear to see it. I don't mind spoilers, but I completely respect not wanting to be spoiled. I'll zip my lip and wait to see if they are accurate. You are so right. It reminds me of the Hound's speech to Sansa about how there are wolves and mutton, and if the sheep cannot take care of themselves, die and get out of the way. Did D & D read this part and think that Martin was really espousing this idea? Because the way they have portrayed Sansa makes me think so. Kind Sansa who makes the Hound face up to the fact that this is a destructive philosophy. Sansa who shows mercy and compassion, which far from being the stupid move, is what saves her, saves Sandor. Sansa is not the only character who shows us how wrong that philosophy of Might Makes Right is, but she is the MAIN character who shows this. For them to twist her character to serve as the prime example of how Might DOES Makes Right and how stupid people get what they deserve seems too deliberate, too twisted to be anything but on purpose. I was thinking about how they turned Lollys into a one note joke in the past couple of episodes, and how their treatment of her shows a similar misunderstanding. The Hound references Lollys in this butcher/mutton speech, and poor Lollys, far from being a joke in the novel, is so important to understanding how wrong this idea is. Lollys is feeble and obese, but she is loved. Her mother, Lady Tanda, is frantic when she is lost to the mob. When Lollys becomes pregnant from the gang rape during the riots, Lady Tanda attempted to shield her daughter from shame by calling her morning sickness an upset stomach. When the pregnancy could not be denied, Lady Tanda did all she could to secure the best marriage for Lollys--being so bold as asking Tywin to marry Tyrion to Lollys. The baby was not spirited away either, and when she asked Cersei for permission to name the baby after Tywin, I suppose you could see that as currying favor, but if so, it shows that Lady Tanda accepted Lollys and her bastard child to such an extent that she thought Cersei would be honored. Maybe Lollys is little more than a sheep, and after Bronn marries her, maybe she is little more than mutton, her and her family, but it's wrong that she is treated so, and Martin makes us see that. So, why even bring poor Lollys into the show? Why even have that scene with her and Bronn? It does seem that they are deliberately twisting Martin's themes or plot. Are they paying him by the faithfulness of the plots to the book. I mean, do they somehow keep more of the money if the scripts are more their own "original" material? I'm only half joking because I don't understand why they are making these changes other than sheer perversity. And wow! That wasn't about costumes at all! On topic: Mellisandre's costumes aren't bad, no? And Arya is still a cutie.
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Post by katie on May 1, 2015 2:45:23 GMT
Yes, that seems to be a topic of conversation as of late -- how they seem to be going out of their way to turn GRRM's work on its head. Even nonsensical things like changing famous lines.... Like, why "Your sister" as opposed to "Only Cat"?? The latter is indelible with the story, why change it?? Are they so determined to make the show "their own" that they are deliberately undermining any trace of what makes it so iconic to book-readers?? At this point, if GRRM says the sky is blue, D&D will insist it's pink. It's just getting obnoxious. And it almost seems like they're doing it out of spite!
I don't think we'll know the true story until after the show wraps. Once everyone is released from their obligations, they can speak freely. I certainly can't wait to hear what GRRM REALLY thinks. I refuse to believe he is okay with this.
And, er, um, oh yeah, I really dig Arya's Season 5 duds, heehee. ;-)
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