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Post by katie on May 11, 2015 20:58:10 GMT
This thought actually occurred to me last night, then someone else brought it up today on Tumblr, and it got me wondering if we hadn't already seen the much-anticipated/feared "traumatic scene" -- i.e.: the Dinner With The Boltons scene where Ramsay forces Theon to apologize to Sansa for killing her brothers. It was pretty heart-wrenching, but "traumatic"? Do you think??
Perhaps Sophie's definition of "traumatic" is the same as Elio's definition of "controversial"? In other words, get people riled up but it's really much ado about nothing?
If that's as "traumatic" as Sansa's season gets, I think we're in the clear!!!
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Post by sillierthings on May 11, 2015 22:05:35 GMT
Maybe? I admire the optimism, but that seems so tame! It did not seem particularly traumatic to me. She wiped away a tear and all, but it wasn't particularly upsetting to watch. Why would Alfie Allen warn that people were going to be upset? Why did Iwan Rheon make some comment alluding to a difficult scene?
And Alfie Allen says:
We are not halfway through the season yet, are we? I mean, I HOPE these young, male actors are not talking about filming sexual assault of a teenager, but God, I don't know what to think. I won't spoil anything, but I have an inkling of what episode things go bad based upon shady spoilers. I've already decided to skip that one and wait and see what the internet tells me before I decide whether I'll watch anymore.
I almost feel we've got the calm before the storm, but I don't trust that they are going to let us, or Sansa, off so lightly.
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Post by katie on May 11, 2015 23:49:48 GMT
Well, we're at episode 5.5, so that's the halfway point. According to the previews, the next episode looks like when the wedding is going to take place, so that could be The One. But yeah, neither of those quotes you pulled seem to describe what happened last night at all.
Alfie Allen says "people aren't going to be happy about it" and "I bear witness to this thing" and Iwan intimates that it's something HE does and obviously Sophie has already mentioned her "traumatic scene"... I mean, WHAT ELSE could it be?? Let's say he does something to Myranda instead -- is that something that would really upset people? Or make "huge waves"? Probably not.
I'm trying REALLY HARD to find some other alternatives. I keep telling myself that D&D wouldn't possibly be that stupid or cruel, because honestly, what does the story gain by having Sansa Stark raped and tortured?? Wouldn't it be far more compelling to watch her get out of the very situation we have ALL BEEN EXPECTING from the start?? If they actually go through with this, they are just cheap exploitationists, nothing more.
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Post by sillierthings on May 12, 2015 0:51:38 GMT
Honestly, I really, really, really hope you are right. As much as I hate this show, I kind of enjoy watching it with hatred, you know? I started by loving the show. I found these beautiful books because of the show. I used to REALLY look forward to this show. And now...we've discussed it. I'm still drawn to it despite myself.
I don't want to believe that they would film a scene where Sansa is so hurt. I don't. I'm hoping that the old lady with her super spy candle plan and Brienne being so close means that Sansa will be saved from harm (always being rescued from her own stupidity, eh?). I hope Theon stops Ramsay before anything bad can happen to Sansa.
Exactly. Even if it has to do with Myranda being tortured or raped or something and Sansa has to watch or take part in some way, is that much better. I guess we can say that Myranda "deserves" it because she took part in Theon's torture, but even so, it's terrible and not something I want to see.
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Post by katie on May 12, 2015 2:46:22 GMT
Yes. It's fun to hate-watch and it's fun to discuss with people the morning after, and there's a certain weird pleasure in seeing it become so over-the-top that you can't even be mad at it anymore. But this would just push it into the grotesque. There's nothing fun about watching a teenage girl being brutalized. Especially when it's one of your favorite characters. And most especially when it easily could have been avoided. Easily.
Yes, that would be horrible too, but I don't think it would "make waves". We barely know Myranda, and we certainly don't have any sympathy for her, so to see something happen to her would be just as gross or needless but I don't think it would make people lose their shit like Alfie and Iwan seem to be hinting.
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Post by sillierthings on May 12, 2015 3:07:48 GMT
And you know what? The fact that these actors are hinting like this, teasing the audience with potential horror for Sansa--there's something very sick about it. I know we are facing it with dread and a helpless kind of optimism that they won't go too far, but think of all the Sansa haters or the bros who are hoping to get a glimpse of her naked, you mean they don't hear those interviews and get excited about it? Maybe I'm over-reacting to it, but it does go along the line of our feelings about Elio calling Alayne's chapter "controversial." People imagined the WORST stuff, Sweetrobin murder, rape, consensual sex with Petyr...and while I think many people jumped to the worst so they could be relieved when the worst didn't happen, I swear there were a lot of people who seemed to be licking their chops, waiting for Sansa to get hers.
Sophie hasn't read the books, and I doubt she knows Jeyne Poole's storyline. I don't know if Alfie or Iwan have read the books. Do they know what they are teasing? Do they know there is rape and sadism and bestiality in the storyline that has been adapted for Sansa? I'm hoping that what they filmed is not as bad comparatively. I'm hoping they just don't realize what leaps into the book readers mind when they discuss traumatic scenes involving Sansa, Ramsay and Theon.
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Post by katie on May 12, 2015 5:18:01 GMT
That's a good point; if they don't know what happens in the books, then they don't realize what fans are expecting to happen and how deplorable it is. So, maybe they are over-selling it? Even still, I don't know what else it could possibly be. It makes NO narrative sense, but the evidence keeps pointing in that direction. :-(
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Post by sillierthings on May 12, 2015 14:23:41 GMT
It doesn't make any sense at all for Sansa to be married to Ramsay, not even the way they have changed the plot rationalizes this in any way. I cannot see any reason for it except that they took out Jeyne Poole early on and then realized they would miss a golden opportunity to include gang rape, bestiality and torture. Who better to suffer? Why Sansa, of course! The actress is legal now and there is nothing to stop them. Btw, since they completely abandoned the Littlefinger serves as mentor for Sansa plot (he's in King's Landing now, which makes no sense), what was the purpose of all the creepy kissing and touching? Considering that they don't seem to be continuing that this season, why even have it so overt? Especially sense they were intimating that Petyr does have some nobler feelings for Sansa or that she is somehow manipulating him to get what she wants (which????wha? ?). Now, she's passed on to Ramsay and his perversion. Sansa really is the Westerosi bicycle for these guys, isn't she? You need a pretty girl to be hurt, threatened and creeped on? Bring out Sansa. Joffrey, the gang rapists during the riots, the Hound (that deleted scene shows you where they were thinking of going with that), Tyrion, Petyr, Ramsay. Yes, Martin does put her in precarious positions in the novel, but she's much more than a pretty doll to be set up and knocked down. It's almost like the sole purpose of Sansa for D & D is to let all the pervs get their jollies watching her get hurt. If this season is the climax of that, if Sansa is raped by Ramsay or molested by Theon on Ramsay's orders or whatever, when do the critics actually speak out against this? When do the actors? This is bad. This isn't a story of a young girl who is bought and sold and kidnapped and molested who still, despite it all, maintains her own desires and is slowly coming into her own, gaining her agency. They've destroyed that character. This just seems to be an excuse to perv over a young girl being menaced and hurt. And does the lack of critique have anything to do with the fact that Benioff's father was a chairman of Goldman Sachs, that he's been chair of the New York Federal Reserve Board and has served on presidential councils for Economics. What I know of Benioff is limited to his works that I've seen and the interviews he gives, and I think he's crap, but he appears to be from a really rich, really powerful family. Are people afraid to tell the Emperor that he has no clothes? I mean, why is there nothing bad being said about what they are doing on "official" sources? Am I just not looking? The only criticisms I've seen come from tumblr for the most part.
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Post by katie on May 12, 2015 15:11:52 GMT
Hmmm, a friend of mine (who watches the show but has only read the first 2 books) just yesterday told me that all the reviews she has read, written by fellow non-book readers, have been mostly negative for this season. I don't know if these were "official" reviews or not, but I found that surprising to hear. So, it seems that D&D's grand plan to go their own way hasn't worked out as well as they'd hoped; I wonder if unsullied show-watchers would be enjoying the season more if it were more faithful to the books. At any rate, it's the "common folk" who matter most anyway -- post as many glowing "official" reviews as you like, but it's the viewers who really determine the success of a show, and if they're not happy, all the "official" endorsements in the world aren't gonna matter.
I didn't know that about Benioff, but that's pretty shady. Now I see where all their severely dated thinking comes from. This show does feel sometimes like it's written by a bunch of conservative Wall Street douchebags, LOL.
Exactly. Plotwise, Jeyne's appearance in the books serves as an impetus for Theon to regain his humanity and finally escape Ramsay. They could have still achieved that a thousand different ways on the show without bringing Sansa into it at all. They still could have had some girl posing as Arya. They could even have maybe had Myranda grow tired of Ramsay's abusive ways, grow close with Theon, and then escape Winterfell together. There are an endless amount of alternatives to dragging Sansa -- who, in the books, is actually enjoying her first real taste of autonomy and agency and GROWTH at this point -- into the mess. And their justification for doing so is just INCREDIBLY flimsy. Even if you take the books out of the equation, this whole storyline is sloppy to the extreme. There's no logic and there's no consistency.
The only justification I can see for it is to force Sansa to take action on her own and, for once, get HERSELF out of her current predicament. LF's not there to help her (and who's to say he would even if he were still there), so she NEEDS to figure something out. This seems like a very good opportunity for that. But if she is truly there just to serve as a stand-in for Jeyne -- abuse and all -- then D&D are schmucks, plain and simple.
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