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Post by katie on May 18, 2015 4:24:58 GMT
I mean, do I even need to say it? I probably won't even be able to sleep tonight. I am just.... so sad right now.
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Post by sillierthings on May 18, 2015 9:44:37 GMT
I didn't watch it. My husband did, and when he came back to bed, he told me what happened. I actually felt so upset it was hard for me to sleep, too, and I did not even SEE it. I went to GRRM's blog and this was my response to it: I really am disgusted with him. What is there to say? They took my favorite character, just destroyed her over the last 3 seasons,and now, to cap it off, they have her raped by the worst psychopath in the novels all so we can feel Theon's pain. Who cares about Sansa getting violently raped after agreeing to this wedding. Who cares about that dumb bitch, right? She brought it on herself, I guess . I hate Sophie Turner so much by the way. She may be young, but she's not that young. She's 19 years old. To say she "loves" what happened to Sansa because now people will be sorry for her, oh, fuck you, Sophie Turner. Does she realize what she took part in? Does she realize what she's doing by giving her stamp of approval? And GRRM. I don't know how he is tied legally re: responding to people, but fuck him for the lukewarm response: the show is the show, the books are the books. Really? He's a worse pimp than Littlefinger in letting these twisted, rape-happy frat bros play with his characters, especially a character whose sexual agency is of primal importance in her story line. Fuck him.
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Post by katie on May 18, 2015 15:02:24 GMT
I'm still reeling this morning. I feel like I've been punched in the chest and I feel sick to my stomach. I think I feel even worse this morning than I did last night.
I saw your post on Tumblr and I responded to it there, but I'll say here that I totally understand your disappointment. And I won't lie, I've been sitting here wondering if GRRM doesn't actually have something similar planned for Sansa in the books, but I cannot for the life of me believe he would go there. Not now, not after all the groundwork he's lain, not after having her escape numerous sexual threats in the past. Even if she loses her virginity to someone she doesn't really love (i.e. Harry the Heir), to actually have her get RAPED is... just not good storytelling, I'm sorry. I don't see any joy in his blog post. I see a man gritting his teeth and striving for as much diplomacy as he can muster. I don't buy it. He refused to write any episodes this season. THIS season, which sees one of his beloved POV characters being raped by one of the most vile secondary characters. You think he's happy about that? Or even okay with it? I don't. I do think his hands are tied contractually. And this IS GRRM we're talking about. We can't take everything his says at face value. I understand why you're upset that he isn't railing like we are, but we're not legally bound to the show like he is. Or the actors.
Having said that, I make no excuses whatsoever for Sophie. Remember months ago when I said that this "traumatic" scene couldn't possibly involve rape because no actress or woman would claim they "loved" filming something like that? Well, color me gobsmacked. But this is the same girl who glorifies Sansa's relationship with LF too. I cannot even begin to imagine where her head is at that she would make comments like this -- age is no excuse. But that interview is coming back to haunt her now. It was re-published in Entertainment Weekly, for crying out loud, and even ended up on Yahoo!'s homepage. I think people are just as horrified by her comments as they are with the scene itself, and rightfully so. Hopefully some rape activists or a women's shelter or something will reach out to her and try to educate her better on this stuff. Those comments are ignorant and offensive to say the least.
The whole episode was just an utter travesty. Remember how I said I wouldn't mind the bathtub scene if it involved Sansa washing the dye out of her hair. Well, it did, but it was MYRANDA who washed the dye out of her hair, all the while having this petty little pissing contest with Sansa about Ramsay. She TELLS Sansa what Ramsay has done to other girls, and Sansa essentially replies (in this deep, foreboding register that didn't even sound like her), "You're just jealous." MuthafuckinWHAT??? Oh wait, I forgot, Sansa is a complete dumbass. And then to see her at the godswood in a white dress... All I've ever wished was to see Sansa say her wedding vows at the Winterfell heart tree... but NOT. LIKE. THIS. My dream turned nightmare. Wow.
I'm not sure if your hubby caught this and relayed it to you, but at the beginning of the episode (basically bookending it with the rape scene), Arya goes on this rather protracted, impassioned rant about Sandor. Jaqen gives her the whole "Who are you?" workover, and she decides to reiterate her entire character arc this series, giving a play-by-play about how she escaped King's Landing, was taken prisoner by Polliver, was kidnapped by the BwB, and then kidnapped again by Sandor Clegane, whom she left to die because she wanted to see him suffer because she hated him, hated him, HATED HIM! I was like... wow, that's the most we've heard about him since we last saw him crying "Kill me!" under that cliff last season. And of course, all during that awfulness with Ramsay, all I could think was "Where the fuck is Sandor?" It actually made me ANGRY to think of it. He should have been there. Maybe he still will one day, but... what would be the point? The damage is done. Besides, it now seems like, if they DO bring Sandor back, it will once again be only for Arya's benefit, not Sansa's. I don't think I could stomach that.
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Post by katie on May 18, 2015 15:10:03 GMT
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Post by sillierthings on May 18, 2015 15:20:23 GMT
I actually watched the first 15 minutes and then, literally, my stomach hurt and I went to bed. I couldn't stand it. So, I saw Arya's declaration of hate for the Hound that was shown to be a lie. At that point, I was thinking that if I'd not read the books, I'm still more likely to think Arya and the Hound are heading for romance than Sansa and the Hound.
Also, is it true that Ramsay raped Sansa from behind? My husband, sensitive soul that he is, said so, and you know, is it just adding insult to injury? They won't rape her with the dogs but they'll rape her doggy style? I'm not trying to be crude, but God, how crude and hateful these writers are.
Did you see the preview image for next week where a an absolutely DESTROYED looking Sansa is kissed on the cheek by Ramsay? I'll never watch again, and I think I may even ease back on tumblr because images like this pop up and i don't have time to blacklist and such. I'm just so disgusted and furious.
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Post by sillierthings on May 18, 2015 15:31:52 GMT
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Post by katie on May 18, 2015 15:32:19 GMT
Yes, but they don't actually show it (thankfully?). You see Ramsay tear the back of her dress open and then push her face-down onto the bed. Then it cuts to Theon's face as you hear Ramsay grunting and Sansa crying. In the bathtub scene, Myranda mentions the dog thing and makes some comment about what dogs can do to women or something, and I'm like... Oh great, thanks, yes, let's inbue some more terrifying dog imagery in Sansa's storyline, shall we?
I was watching with a girlfriend of mine, clutching a pillow and watching through my fingers. When it was over (because that is literally the LAST image the episode leaves us with), I was just stunned. My friend asked me if I was okay, and I couldn't even speak.
I watched the show later than everyone else, and about 30 minutes in, my mom (who was watching at home) texted me "Are you okay?" And I was like... well, clearly am I not going to be if she has to ask!!!
Yeah, I saw the preview. I still haven't decided if I am going to watch. I might skim on my computer, but I don't think I will make an "event" out of it anymore. Shit, I am even uncomfortable posting stuff about show-Sandor on Tumblr now...
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Post by sillierthings on May 18, 2015 15:35:13 GMT
I feel the same way. I feel like they took something fun, and just...shit on it, you know?
I can't play around with this. I am a woman. I have daughters. I cannot give my tacit approval, you know?
I don't know if I'm being too serious and navel gazing here, but I just can't.
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Post by katie on May 18, 2015 16:50:27 GMT
I know what you mean. Everything up to that moment in the show was ripe for mockery, and I was already composing my recap post in my head, but now... How can I even JOKE about it? I can't even bring myself to make snarky comments about Bronn & Jaime or even express how cute I thought Trystane and Myrcella were. Everything has been tainted. The whole SHOW has been tainted. I don't know if I'll even be able to watch past episodes now. My mom and I are in the middle of a re-watch, we just started Season 3, but I think she might have to continue without me.
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Post by sillierthings on May 18, 2015 17:56:25 GMT
That's exactly how I feel. I don't know if I'm qualified to discuss rape. I don't think my head is clear enough right now to discuss what I'm feeling here, but I'll try. When Martin depicts rape in the novels, it's generally not what I would consider gratuitous--though the Jeyne Poole scenes were heading in that direction. Even her scenes in the book were suggested more than shown, thank God. With Jeyne's rape in the books, you really get that she had no choice whatsoever in the matter (unlike Sansa who just fucking goes along with it! Even after Brienne! Even after old lady with candle. It beggars belief). She was, as we've discussed before, just one more Jeyne to be used and bartered and mistreated by the nobles. Jeyne Poole. Jeyne Westerling. Jeyne Heddle who now runs the inn of the Crossroads. These woman who stand in as symbols, almost stereotypes, of the horror that this broken society inflicts upon women. It is a condemnation of society, of the rules that govern it that allow such horrors to go on. It's what ultimately breaks the Hound when he sees Sansa being abused. It's what ultimately makes Reek become Theon again. But here is the difference with Theon's arc in the book. Jeyne is no one. She is not heir to Winterfell. Theon didn't even really know her that well. Especially now, to help Jeyne makes no difference to Theon. She's not going to reward him with a lordship or commend him for his fealty. The thing is, in the books, Jeyne isn't even a particularly nice girl. She's catty. She's envious. But she's a girl, an innocent who is bartered between two depraved people: Littlefinger and Ramsay. Jeyne isn't that great, but she's not bad. She doesn't deserve what happens to her. So, when Theon makes the choice to save her, it's truly a sacrifice to save her. It's far more noble in a way than if he saved the noble Lady of Winterfell, Sansa Stark, whom he once hoped to marry, you know? We don't need to see the main characters raped to know that rape is a horror that occurs all too often in Westeros. We don't need another depiction of marital rape because we have seen the after effects through Cersei's eyes. She's strong. She overcame it and got her revenge on Robert--but at what cost to her own soul? Cersei is a fucking wreck. It can't all be blamed on Robert's treatment of her, but if he had not hurt her in the marriage bed from the VERY FIRST NIGHT, when in her narrative Cersei even admits she was "wet for him," maybe she would not have plotted his murder, hmm? We don't need to see a rape from Sansa's (or Arya, or Brienne, or Asha or any other woman) because we already have that info. We see what it can do to a noble woman in this society. We also have Lysa who apparently wasn't raped by Jon Arryn, but she sure as hell wasn't having any fun either. Sansa offers us the alternative. Sure, we can say that her maidenhead has "plot armor" and all that, but it won't last forever, because I feel sure that Sansa having sex is going to be absolutely integral to her arc because she will be one of the few women who manages to make love with a man who cares about her. If is GRRM is following the literary traditions I think he is, Sansa's sexual agency and her taking a lover who loves and respects her (i.e. Sandor) is symbolic of the resurrection of this broken land. Martin really isn't doing anything new here. He is taking generations of myths and weaving them together into something that feels fresh and new, but trust me when I say, I fully believe Sansa is the motherfucking Fertility Queen and Sandor is the Fertility God. Their union is going to be freaking symbolic, and yes, "tainting" the divine Mother figure whom Sansa represents, with rape, is a fucking blasphemy. And I'm not saying that women cannot recover from rape. I am not saying women who are raped are "tainted." I'm a woman. Believe me, it's common enough that I know rape survivors. I know survivors of molestation. This shit is real and horrifying and not something to show so lightly on HBO so a few twisted fucks can get their thrills, you know? It's not something you just "get over," after you kill the rapist and get "revenge"! It's not. ESPECIALLY if that's all you know of sex. And you know what? I love Sansa and Sandor. In the novels, they must reunite. In the show, I now could care less. As you said before, Katie. Maybe Sandor will sweep in, and after Ramsay has raped her and hurt her, maybe Sandor's mutilated old face won't be so bad. But that's not the story I wanted to see. It's not the story I expected for them. It's ugly, and it's not fair. I hope Rory McCann, who seems a gentle soul, runs for the hills or out to sea and misses his agent's call if they decide to bring back the Hound. I think this post says it well too: gotgifsandmusings.tumblr.com/post/119290178087/hi-i-just-want-to-ask-a-question-about-sansa-it
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Post by katie on May 18, 2015 18:09:46 GMT
My dear mother, pragmatic as she is, tried to assuage my rage last night by saying, "Well, Stannis is on his way, and so is Brienne, they'll get her out of there." And I replied, "It doesn't matter. The damage is done." Like, who even cares anymore? If Sansa and Sandor do reunite, it'll be like I said before -- it'll be framed as this damaged girl who doesn't know any better and will settle for basically ANYTHING, including the ugly guy with the gimpy leg because, hey, at least he's kinda nice to her? Ugh.
Speaking of RMC, I wonder if he saw the episode last night, and if so, what he thought. I mean, regardless of his feelings for Sophie, we all know that HE knows how the Hound feels about Sansa, so I feel like he would have a sort of kneejerk reaction to it, you know what I mean? But you're right, if they do bring Sandor back onto the show, it won't be for anything worth watching I don't think. They'll bring him back for Cleganebowl or for an angsty reunion with Arya. Yawn.
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Post by sillierthings on May 18, 2015 18:29:43 GMT
And that's just it, isn't it? For all those people who seem to think this will be the making of Sansa, it will spur her on to revenge and murder! Queen of the North!! What bullshit!
Can killing your rapist cure the damage?
Can killing your rapist make it easier to make love with someone you do love and trust after all you've ever known is sexual abuse and torture?
In the show, Sansa's hopeful arc is ruined. She will be set on a path of revenge, and the damage done by the rape will be only compounded if they also turn her into a murderer. At best, she'll just be the pretty pawn that get passed from one man to another. From her evil betrothed Joffrey, to the "noble" Tyrion, to the molester Littlefinger, to the psycho rapist Ramsay, to the "hero" Theon, and then maybe...just maybe, when she's completely emotionally broken, the sad, scarred, gimpy Hound, who swore he'd never hurt her will come back and watch over the shell of who she used to be.
Forgive me if I've said anything triggering or rude, but rape is not something that is "cured" by revenge and if they show anything otherwise, they are liars.
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Post by katie on May 18, 2015 18:38:30 GMT
The thing is, though, she already had PLENTY ENOUGH to want "revenge" for!!! Roose Bolton looked her fucking brother in the eye as he drove a dagger into his heart. Ramsay was complicit in this. Why is THAT not enough?? Did they think Sansa was too selfish to want revenge until something happened to HER personally?? Well, that just makes her look like a bitch, doesn't it?
Oh, and something you probably didn't see last night, but she refused to take Theon's arm as he walked her down the aisle; when Theon insisted that Ramsay would punish him if he didn't, Sansa replied coldly, "I don't care what he does to you." WHAAAAAAAA??? Where is my sweet compassionate Sansa and what have you done with her??? Regardless of her feelings for Theon, I think it would DEFINITELY bother her to be complicit in more abuse of him!!!
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Post by sillierthings on May 18, 2015 19:11:52 GMT
Of course she had enough reason for revenge! Of course she did! If they wanted to go "vengeful Sansa," she would have been the "ghost in Winterfell" instead of Mance Raydar and his spear wives. She would have been lighting candles in windows and offing people as quickly and quietly as she could. She should have shanked Ramsay's ass with a knitting needle. Something. Anything.
But no, they wanted to rape Sansa Stark. These sickos have been wanting to rape her since at least the second season. I think of all the book readers salivating over the "controversial chapter" wanting Sansa to get Littlefingered--well, now they have their fantasies played out on screen. Good for them. Thank God our book Sansa is safe.
You know, too, I feel that they have been fucking with Sansan fans all along. So, briefly setting aside my objective horror of what they did to her character, let's talk about it from a "sansan shipper" perspective (though how can you be a shipper when it's freaking canon!). They destroy the SanSan dynamic--giving the story to Littlefinger, making Tyrion a hero, etc.
Then--the Darth Sansa necklace which you rightly pointed out looks like a BDSM dog collar and chain. They have her chat with Myranda "the kennel master's daughter." Why make Myranda the "kennel master's daughter" if not to recall that Sandor was the kennel master's grandson at the Rock? Sansa holds her leash in hand as she goes into the kennels to find Theon--treated like a dog, or a Hound. There is this detail:
And then, if you and my husband are to be trusted (of course you are), Sansa is raped "doggy style."
Nice. Really, really nice. It's not coincidental. It. Is. Not. They are sick fucks.
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Post by katie on May 18, 2015 19:24:42 GMT
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