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Post by sillierthings on May 20, 2015 14:14:13 GMT
I've said enough about an episode I did not even watch, but I'm still troubled by it all. There are so many things wrong with deciding to have Ramsay rape Sansa, but a lot of the criticism is rightly focused on the fact that Sansa became a bit player in her own rape. Theon's pain is the focus of the rape. Sansa was assaulted so Theon could have his heroic arc. I did see one post reminding us that Theon is also a victim by being forced to watch the rape, and then the post went on to explain that the audience is like Theon in this respect--and I sort of see that point, but really, Theon's "victim" status in this situation is not a damn thing I care about. When he had his penis cut off after being sexually assaulted by Myranda and friend, yes, that was rightly Theon's moment and Theon's pain. Reminding us that poor Theon had to watch Sansa being raped and is thus a victim too...well, boo-hoo-hoo for him.
It is refreshing to see people being critical of rape as a means to man-pain, but I'm reminded of all the commentary I've read excusing Tyrion for the rape of Tysha because "he was a victim too." It seems a similar situation. Tysha is raped, but the narrative (and many Tyrion fans) focus so much on how that event violated him and hurt him and rarely is a thought spared for Tysha. Of course we do not know who she is. She's not a character we know except via Tyrion's memories, but Tyrion is sorry for himself all the time and continually justifies his more disgusting actions with his "poor me" thoughts. Now, I don't think Martin intends for Tyrion to be justified in this. He may enjoy writing Tyrion, but Tyrion wallows in his self-pity and man-pain, and he makes a habit of making other women's suffering all about him (Tysha, Sansa and Shae). I do not believe Martin is justifying this. If I thought that, I would not read the novels.
If we are disgusted by Sansa's rape being all about Theon, then we should be disgusted with Tyrion, too. In the books, Theon eventually does the right thing even though his master is arguably much worse than Tywin and he has much less power than Tyrion had at the time of the Tysha rape. I think there is a parallel between Tysha and Jeyne's assault. Tyrion professes to love Tysha, but he takes part in her assault and then uses the tired excuse of "the devil, or Tywin, made me do it." The same excuse he uses when he marries Sansa. The same excuse he uses when he murders his father (how dare he call Tysha a whore!).
Theon doesn't really remember Jeyne that well. He doesn't have any affection for her, and yes, he takes part in her assault--under pain of losing another finger, another tooth, or something worse. Even so, he reaches a point where he must do the human thing. He must save this girl who means nothing to him. Can we excuse Theon for his part in Jeyne's rape? I don't know if I can excuse it, but I understand it. I don't understand Tyrion's taking part in the assault. I don't understand why he could not say now. Tywin would not have flayed him or chopped off a finger. I wonder if his protests were as flimsy as his protests about marrying Sansa.
Both Theon and Tyrion are characters who are rejected by their fathers, who treat women as objects, who both are coerced into sexual assault. I sympathize with Theon to a degree, not so much with Tyrion, but the fact remains, that the real sympathy should be with the women who serve to showcase their pain.
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Post by katie on May 20, 2015 15:05:20 GMT
If i recall correctly, when Tyrion is telling the story about Tysha's rape, he says something to effect of "my cock betrayed me". Meaning, he didn't put up much of a fight because he was actually aroused.  I think the same holds true for why he accepted the marriage proposal to Sansa; he wanted Winterfell, yes, but he also wanted some of that sweet young Stark candy. He even says so on more than one occasion that he wants her despite her disgust and her age. And I agree, I don't think Martin is trying to justify any of Tyrion's thoughts and actions, though obviously Tyrion is. If anything, I think GRRM is trying to illustrate how rape is viewed from the male perspective in this world. Everyone is pretty flippant about Lollys, but GRRM doesn't allow us to forget it. It's not just shoved aside. And in spite of how it is viewed by others, we, as the readers, are rightly horrified. The difference with Theon and Jeyne is that Theon is kind of the first man we see who is ACTIVELY bothered by a woman's sexual abuse, even in spite of his OWN abuse, and that is very important for his arc. As appalling as what happens to Jeyne is, she DOES serve a narrative purpose for Theon's character development. And I don't think it's simply all about "man pain" in this instance. I think it's about a broken down human who previously wouldn't have pissed on someone like Jeyne Poole if she was on fire finding some spark of decency inside himself (finally) and is moved to do the right thing at great personal risk to himself. It's a wholly selfless act from a man who spent the first two books being nothing but SELFISH. And it really is a compelling thing to read. Meanwhile, Sansa Stark has her OWN storyline, her OWN arc, her OWN character development, and D&D decided that that wasn't as important as Theon's, so they shoved it aside and thrust her into the role of tertiary character whose role in the books IS to be a catalyst for Theon's reawakening, and in the process completely obliterated Sansa's significance as a character herself. As you (and many others) say, Sansa's rape was for Theon's development, not hers. I'll be honest, though, as narratively offensive as it was to focus on Theon during her rape, I think I would have much rather seen his face than Sansa's. I don't think I could have handled that. Hearing her screams was traumatizing enough. I still hear them... I am haunted by them. |
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Post by sillierthings on May 20, 2015 16:40:17 GMT
Thank you--you managed to put into words what I was feeling but not quite able to sort out.
Exactly. And after I started this post, I started to realize the parallels between Theon and Tyrion, and while I don't think Theon is going off to a happy ending given his physical and mental state, he is redeemed a great deal because of this. Tyrion, unless there are some dramatic turn arounds in the next novel, is an example of how such a character DOESN'T find redemption. Curious that Tyrion is the one the writers of the show chose to redeem in their hamhanded white-washing. It shows how little they get it.
Yes. It's not that Jeyne deserves it more than Sansa or anything, but that is NOT WHAT SANSA'S ARC IS ABOUT! Poor Jeyne, and all the other Jeyne's and Tysha are the women in the background, the ones who do suffer, and to make them p.o.v. characters is dangerous because then their suffering starts to veer toward voyeuristic and salacious. I don't want to see it, and I'm very glad I did not watch it. I'm upset enough hearing about it, knowing it's now show canon.
Sansa is the one that manages to maintain her sexual agency thus far even though she's not a badass, even though she's not a warrior or a queen with dragons or anything except her sweet, feminine self. She is the symbol of mercy and motherhood. Her purpose is a hopeful one and she DOES serve a purpose in making a man heroic (much the same way Jeyne allows for Theon's redemption). She redeems the Hound, and it's ALL from her perspective and her little sister's. The Hound is turned into a man and a hero by these girls and it's NOT from his perspective but theirs. They are not just props. Their storylines are a beautiful inversions of the rescued maidens. They are rescued, but you see how it's them, their interactions with the man make the hero. How empowering to show that the damsels aren't waiting for their hero, the MAKE their hero, force him to be who he should be (even though they may not recognize it immediately). And the fact is, Sandor suffers much the same type of pain as Sansa and Arya. There is a similarity in their experiences which makes their interactions all the more meaningful. Jeyne does this for Theon as well, and as you say, it's important that he is Jeyne's equal in suffering. He's not just swooping in to save the tortured girl. He has experienced the same abuse. It's quite likely he was also raped in addition to the physical pain.
All the GOT show did was miss the entire point of Martin's series--people are more than mutton to be chewed up by the strong. To believe that is to destroy your humanity, to be a monster without a soul. The show turned Sansa into a sheep, just meat for Ramsay to chew up. I saw the very first part of this episode where Arya was washing the bodies, and I saw someone comment that Myranda bathing Sansa paralleled this action. I didn't see Myranda bathe Sansa, so you can correct me if this is is not correct, but visually, would you say that they were showing us, even in a scene where Ramsay is not even present, in a scene where Sansa stands up for herself that she is just a naked piece of meat? A body to be used, processed, just like Arya washes the bodies and wears their faces? So, knowing that they think Arya is a badass and cool, does this make sense that this is what they think of Sansa? A prissy little bitch, a pretty body to be washed, dressed up and fucked? I know I linked to a critique that suggested that D&D are not that clever, but you know, they aren't idiots either. By calling them inept seems relieves them of the responsibility of what they've shown on screen and I don't think I'm ready to do that.
Where ever they go with storyline, even if Theon and Sansa follow the book and escape, they are damaged--you don't just get over something like that. How can this show possibly explore the aftermath of sexual sadism and torture and rape? They can't. I wish that they pay the consequences with decreased viewership and more "official" criticism, the more scathing the better.
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Post by katie on May 20, 2015 16:56:23 GMT
I hadn't thought of the parallels between Arya's washing scene and Sansa's bathing scene, but it kind of makes sense. Because yeah, though Sansa may not be literally dead, she's probably dead INSIDE now. And I have seen theories that she may become D&D's replacement for Lady Stoneheart (hey, she's got the hood and everything in the preview for the next episode), so it would fall in line with that too, wouldn't it? Like you said in a post yesterday, she's basically just a reanimated corpse at this point.
And to tell you the truth, and I really annoyed with people on Tumblr posted memes that hype Sansa's "I am Sansa Stark of Winterfell, and you can't frighten me" statement to Myranda, like it was this big, bold moment of empowerment. Uhhh, well, first of all, she was raped not 5 minutes later. Also, she says that after Myranda has TOLD HER EXACTLY WHAT RAMSAY DOES TO WOMEN. Sansa is basically blowing her off. She dismisses this CRUCIAL information by suggesting that Myranda is just jealous and then she pulls rank on her like a stuck-up bitch. Everyone is saying that moment was likely meant to make her subsequent rape all the more shocking, but in reality, it makes her rape look JUSTIFIED. Like, "Oh yeah? The great Sansa Stark of Winterfell can't be frightened? Well how about NOW?" It's a pattern we have seen repeatedly. The snobby highborn girl being brought low for her haughtiness. It's sick.
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Post by sillierthings on May 20, 2015 17:35:02 GMT
Oh my God. Logically, wouldn't you go light a fucking candle in the window after such a conversation? Wouldn't you find that old lady and ask her just what she means by "the North Remembers." But you see, that's what the writers think Sansa is: a stuck up bitch. She deserves rape. Then she might appreciate all the "nice guys" she blew off before, nice guys like Tyrion. I may be wrong, but I see that I'm not the only one thinking this. Sansa's rape by Ramsay is the friendzoned nice guy's revenge. Uppity bitch won't fuck the cool dwarf or give it up to the super cool, super smart Littlefinger? Rape her. Let her realize how bad her choice was. And it feels like they were fucking with the audience--we kept expecting Brienne and Pod, Stannis and his army, old candle lady, ANYTHING to stop this from happening. And I think you are right about the Hound. He was too ugly and old, but now that she's nice and raped and emotionally damaged, he can get the pieces of the broken woman and she'll condescend to be with him because hey! At least he didn't rape her, though the thought of "fucking her bloody" would have been his one happy memory. And I'm sure you're right, that he'll be more about Arya's arc than Sansa's. Arya's talked more about the Hound than Sansa has. Arya's truth/lie game showed that she DOES care for him. So, he'll come back, be rewarded with the broken body of the animated corpse that is Sansa and be good buddies with Arya. If he returns. And I do wish Martin would make more of a stand against this. Maybe he's hoping his work speaks for itself, and I think it does. I rambled a bit yesterday about how much care he takes to detail women's arousal in his love scenes. I'll say again, outside of a romance novel, I don't think I've EVER read a work that so honestly and frequently cares to mention whether a woman is "wet" or not before she has sex with a man. Martin is better than this and I wish he could or would speak up. |
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Post by katie on May 20, 2015 18:25:41 GMT
My thoughts exactly. That would have been the PERFECT FUCKING TIME to take Old Candle Lady up on her offer. But no, ONCE AGAIN, Walking Disaster Sansa Stark makes a stupid-ass decision that leads to her utter misfortune.
And here's another option -- how about instead of Theon "waking up" by seeing Sansa raped, how about Sansa employs her superpowers of Compassion and Empathy by taking Theon under her wing and convincing him that they BOTH need to get out of Winterfell and away from Ramsay? Oh wait, that's not "shocking" enough, nevermind...
Yes, she will "settle" for Sandor, because even though he might not be all that much to look and is just as broken as she is (I doubt we'll get a full Quiet Isle recovery), he did tell her that he would never hurt her and she has no other options, sooo...
Oh he'll return, if for no other reason than CLEGANEBOWL!!!!111!!11! That is if RMC even deigns to return to this shit-show. He might have seen Sunday night's episode and was like, "ew, no, fuck this forever, I'm gonna go climb a mountain instead."
I think "could" is the operative word here. You KNOW he's not happy. Otherwise he wouldn't have released that Sansa TWoW chapter when he did, or refuse to write any episodes for Season 5, or refuse to make any Comic-Con appearances. Words are wind. Actions speak louder. And this is GRRM we're talking about, so we have to read between the lines sometimes. Yes, he does use the tired old "the show is the show and the books are the books" spiel again, but to me, that indicates a man divorcing himself (at least emotionally) from the show. He is saying THIS DOES NOT REPRESENT MY WORK. He even links to Sansa's chapter at the end of his statement so people can see what is REALLY going on. You might say he is using his own "courtesy armor" here. Indeed, he the Sansa to D&D's Littlefinger, LOL; he is playing the game and allowing his "captors" to believe he is going along with their devious machinations. But one day, when the time is right, he will strike. ;-)
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I think the same holds true for why he accepted the marriage proposal to Sansa; he wanted Winterfell, yes, but he also wanted some of that sweet young Stark candy. He even says so on more than one occasion that he wants her despite her disgust and her age.