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Post by eyesofmist on Jun 8, 2015 15:39:52 GMT
"To lost innocence and bright shining dreams, and especially to Parris: Looking at you I hear the music."
George dedicated his book AR to several people, especially musicians. This is the last part of the dedicatory and as you can see the man is a diehard romantic. Lost innocence and dreams, exactly what Sandor lost at Gregor's hands and what was beaten out of Sansa, or was it? Because she holds on to her dreams after everything she's endured. And what about the reference to his wife and how he can hear music when he looks at her? I can't imagine anything more beautiful a man could say to his woman. It reminds me of Sansa and her songs nobody wants, nobody but a broken warrior who thinks there's no place for dreams in this world. I think he can hear music when he looks at her and can't help dreaming and hoping again despite himself.
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Post by katie on Jun 8, 2015 17:04:21 GMT
Awww that's really beautiful. Yes, GRRM is an old softie, and he is channeling that through Sansa (and Sandor) for sure. Anyone who says he's not romantic is just a nihilistic fanboy!
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Post by sillierthings on Jun 13, 2015 13:45:59 GMT
And you are right, his dedication is so beautiful. He really loves his red-haired bride, doesn't he? She makes him hear the music. He has Sandor desire a song from Sansa. It can't be coincidental. If that's how he speaks to his wife, than we can be sure that shared song between Sansa and Sandor is meant to be romantic. GRRM is a complete sucker for romance. I'm convinced.I've been reading AR on my lunch breaks. The protagonist is an idealistic character named Sander who almost loses his idealism in the face of broken dreams and horror, but he still manages to be compassionate and rework his idealism into something liveable and more realistic. And throughout this novel, the music is the magic. The music is so important. I cannot believe that having written this novel that he does not have something very good planned for Sandor and Sansa. There are other bits of the novel where I see vestiges of Sansa and Sandor, but I'll wait until eyesofmist has read it to go into detail. I won't say it's the best book I've ever read, but it's good, better than many. A few chapters have me rolling my eyes thinking, "Oh, George, you old hippy," but the themes are lovely, and I love the way he weaves the music and Yeats' "Second Coming" throughout the text.
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Post by katie on Jun 13, 2015 17:12:55 GMT
OMG, his protagonist is named SANDER? ?? I THINK THAT'S KIND OF IMPORTANT. lol I truly hope this is indicative of GRRM's intentions with San dor. And Sansa as well. If he literally wrote an entirely separate book with a main character with the SAME NAME, then obviously this means something to him. He can't just leave him on the Quiet Isle to rot. He can't just leave Sandor and Sansa separated forever never knowing how they feel about each other... especially when how they feel about each other is literally the ONE THING IN THE WORLD THEY WANT THE MOST. I know everyone accuses GRRM of being nihilistic and defeatist and never allowing his characters happiness, but... That can't be true for ALL the characters, can it? With 2 books left, surely we will start seeing some satisfactory resolutions. There HAS to be some payoff for trudging through 5 books that contain enough pain, suffering, and injustice. We've stayed with him for this long, surely he's going to reward us for our patience???
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Post by sillierthings on Jun 13, 2015 19:17:27 GMT
NO, he CANNOT. And here's more from Armageddon Rag. Eyesofmist, don't peek unless you want to be spoiled:
Mid-way through Sander "Sandy" Blair's roadtrip of despair (i.e. I'm a disillusioned hippy living in the age of the yuppy, let me go try to find myself on the road)--meeting up with old friends from college and his hippy, peace-loving days, he finds one of his old friends, Bambi, living on a commune. She is pregnant, very earth mother (and she's a BEE KEEPER!! She give Sandy honey in his tea and waxes poetic about her bees). The father of her child is a huge guy who was involved in some radical bombings and such back in the 60s. Sandy talks to him to get some information, he reveals that he's on a "Quiet Isle" kind of journey, changed his name, having children with Bambi and trying to find a better way, if you will.
Here is a description of Bambi that I feel might apply to Sansa eventually (or I could be chasing shadows! I need you to keep me straight and let me know if I'm seeing things):
Bambi reaches out to Sandy, and even though he's not quite SandOR, he's touchy with her about his inner pain (and he has another love interest or two. Bambi is not his love, but she is his friend and the way he reacts to her concern with dark humor feels very SandOR-ish).
Sound like someone we know?
Bambi goes on to suggest "aura balancing" and other new-age treatments for Sandy and he refuses.
Sandy responds to her a bit, seeing wisdom in what she says, but his final analysis of her commune:
Think of the Quiet Isle, so close to the Saltpans one of their own brothers was slaughtered there. There is war and famine and terror that will likely not leave the Quiet Isle unscathed, and there is an ungelded horse kicking in the stables. Just as Sander Blair rejects Bambi's commune, so I believe Sandor Clegane will ultimately reject the Quiet Isle. It's not a happy ending. It's putting your head in the sand, at least for someone like Sander/Sandor.
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Post by katie on Jun 13, 2015 20:32:16 GMT
That's a really great point -- that Sandor couldn't possibly be content to stay on the QI not just out of boredom but because the QI (and Elder Bro) shields men from The Real World, and that goes against everything in his nature. It might be nice for a while to help him get his head together, but Sandor Clegane does not shy away from Reality. He has too much unfinished business. He needs to find his little bird and make sure she's okay!!!
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Post by eyesofmist on Jun 21, 2015 13:30:05 GMT
I've read a bit more (I'm really busy at work and really stressed at the moment)and I noticed that Sandy (Sander) has thick black hair and in the past it was so long it reached his ass. He also used to have a beard. This makes me think of Peter Steele (you know I believe he is George's headcanon for Sandor,LOL)and how long his hair was,the colour is also the same. Also,Sandor listens to a song by a band called Nazgul and the song is called "Blood on the Sheets". The lyrics go " Baby,you cut my heart out", and "Baby,you made me bleed". Wow. this is somthing Peter Steele would sing,he wrote many songs about blood and also death (do you remember Woolf Moon?). Both the singer,the type of music,the theme of songs itself, are related to Sandor and Sansa. The blood on the sheets,or Sandor saying he should have cut her heart out before leaving her for the dwarf.
The connection is becoming more and more obvious the more I read. Sillier-things and I have commented that Sandor Clegane has some physical traits that George had when he was young. He has a hooked nose and he used to have long black hair. His features were quite harsh and angular too.Does this sound familiar? I does to me.
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Post by sillierthings on Jun 21, 2015 21:34:08 GMT
Yes! I noticed those lyrics, and it's all the more compelling when you see that those songs are a part of an album or song cycle that are almost "magical." Sansa, Sandor, blood magic and songs--after reading this novel there is no doubt that there is much more to Sansa and Sandor's song and sharing of blood.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 3, 2015 13:54:27 GMT
I have just finished chapter 10 and I've found many themes that reappear in ASoIaF. In chapter 10, for instance,Sandor goes to visit an old friend who lives in a commune apart from the world. There's evene a a guy who was "hunted and tortured" when he came to their small group and found peace there,not only peace but also love and a baby coming, his child. This place is very much like the QI and Sandy,the protagonist (called Sandy Blair)is offered to stay there and forget about the crazy world outside,but Sandy refuses because hiding in a hole,however peaceful and nice it may be is not a solution for him,as the crazy materialistic violent world outside is still there and they'll have to face it sooner or later.
I think this is what will happen to Sandor Clegane,his stallion is still kicking and biting in the padlock,Sandor will never let them tame him,neither his nature nor his virility. there's not peace for him there but just a temporary respite.
Ray,the man with a dark past,with blood in his hands found peace in the commune,like the elder brother on the QI,but not Sandor,he will face the world again,like Sandy Blair.
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 6, 2015 11:25:16 GMT
Ray IS a lot like the Elder Brother. Even the conversation he had with Sandy reminds me of a fiercer version of the Elder Brother speaking with Brienne, giving advice but still keeping his secrets. Though don't you think there is something a bit Sandor-ish to Ray? And the fact that tough Ray is having a child with Bambi, the idealistic earth mother?
I love the description of Bambi I quoted above:
This is how I see Sansa ending up. Not the cold, hard Queen of the North. I could see Sansa going through everything she's been through and still remaining the sweet, hopeful romantic...wiser, but no less romantic for all that.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 6, 2015 15:40:24 GMT
Yes, Ray is very much like both Elder Brother and Sandor Clegane, three fighters who did horrible things in the past but were given a second chance. Sandy never considered telling the police about Ray, who was always hiding for a reason. George said in one interview that he wondered if or when a person who commited a crime deserved to be forgiven. He is not like Stannis for whom the rules are everything. How crazy was it to cut Davos's fingers for smuggling onions into a starving city? Davos is a good man who breaks the rules and sometimes for the right reasons whreas Stannis is a just man but being just may not equal being good. Many readers think Sandor will find redemption but not a second chance at life because he is a killer and must pay with his lifw for taking the lives of others. This is what we usually in western country's stories and film. A bad guy can be redeemed but only by giving up his life in a great selfless act the good ones are not capable of. I have always feared George would follow this trope with Sandor but I hope he doesn't because he does believe in second chances and Elder Brother and Ray are good examples of this.
I also believe the QI or any other hidden obscure place, like that village whrere he stayed with Arya would do for Sandor if he wasn't in love with Sansa. If he found his Bamby, like Ray did he'd be happy with it and perfectly contented. Yes, Bamby is a firm believer just like Sansa, she never gave up her ideas. We may share them or not but she truly believes in a certain kind or world and lives by her beliefs.
It's funny to see here what we suspect Sandor and Sansa need, want and eventually will have: true love, a family and a child. It's funny that love and family means so much for George. He should have been a father, I think he would have made a good father.
I think this, love and family is so importante because we humans can only win (or lose) the battle against evil and death for so long and ultimately love is what remains, what makes life worth living while we have the chance. That's why the game of thrones is so futile, like those stone thrones and rusty swords in the crypts of Winterfel represent. Everyone loses this game eventually and Sansa was right all along, she wanted love and giving love herself. What's better and more meaningful than this?
George doesn't believe in revenge and retribution and he does believe in second chances. I think the Dream of Spring will prove that.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 6, 2015 15:48:19 GMT
I also hate the idea of Sansa as the cold queen in the North. That's not the story George is telling here. He is not going to cheat in his most ambitious story. All the foreshadowing he left us on purpose will have a pay-off and a satisfactory conclusion. He is no D&D.
His song of ice and fire is promising something and I don't think he will use cheap tricks or change what the hints lead to expect. That's something D&D would do but not him. I know this because I love his story and I wouldn't if he was like those two.
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 6, 2015 18:41:14 GMT
One more Sansa/Bambi parallel: Bambi loves Hostess cakes and Sansa loves lemon cakes.
And did you notice Ray was repairing a wall/ building when Sandy first sees him? Reminds me of Sandor in the village.
We have spoken of it before, but what good is it to redeem yourself and die? Is it not better, not just for the individual but also for society as a whole, to live a good life?
Like you, I believe Sansa and Sandor will be the ones to carry on loving and making a family, bringing healing to a savage and broken world, even if it's just in a small way. It's a kind of quiet heroism, don't you think?
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 6, 2015 21:28:59 GMT
Yes I do, I agree, you know that, lol. And the more we read and the more we think about it the more I think we are right to expect that. I didn't remember Ray was building a wall when Sandy arrived but it's true. Instead of spending the rest of his life in jail he finds hope and purpose, and a new life. He is so excited about becoming a father!
We talked about this before, I think Sandor and Sansa will have their second chance,and I believe this because they have no other relevance apart from this. In the big picuture,they don't mean much,their interaction is not so meaningful. But this is what gives me hope,why is Sandor in the story,why is he still alive and others remember him after he disappeared? I think he's there to make a point,to bring a theme that matters to George,not to move the plot forward. The plot is important, of course,but very often universal themes that appear in stories are even more important and for George second chances,redemption and new lives,hope, idealism and love are paramount.That's why Sansan exists. It's not about the big picture as much as about those themes that appear throughtout Martin's books time after time,the themes that matter to him.
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 8, 2015 0:56:56 GMT
I was thinking about this, and that statement "being just may not equal being good" is something we see repeated through ASOIAF. I love Stannis, but I don't think he's heading for a good end, one of the main reasons being that he is too just--he is that iron that will crack and break. Davos is an excellent example of the man who does "wrong" in order to do good. The world isn't black and white, especially George's world.
Bringing it back to Sandor, the Brotherhood Without Banners sought "justice." Here is Sandor, a man who has abandoned the only life and security he has ever had because he was too good to serve the Lannisters, because Sansa awoke the true knight within him, and the Brotherhood put him on trial, steal his gold, leave him with no options, and even then he does not resort to evil. Yes, he kidnaps Arya, but the Brotherhood had done the same essentially, and they intended to ransom her as well.
Like Ray in AR, society doesn't want to let Sandor make amends. He wants to build a wall, stay in the village, serve Robb...but his reputation makes people turn him away or put him on trial, try to put him to his death. However, George has given us many hints that he doesn't want that kind of "justice" for Sandor. Look at how often the gods themselves have intervened for him --Sansa's prayers and Mother's song, Rh'llor, the Elder Brother. I can't help but wonder when the old gods will pass their favor on him as well. He is a good man, under the savagery, he is a good, decent man, and he would live a good, decent, LOVING life if given the chance. And who is the one character who is so merciful that she can even weep for Joffrey? Our girl Sansa.
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