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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 8, 2015 10:41:58 GMT
What you said about Merciful Sansa makes me think of Yeat's poem the Beautiful lady without Mercy. And in AR Yeats is mentioned. George valued his poems.Mercy is the name of that future Arya's chapter and I think Arya is , for the moment, a lady without mercy whereas Sansa is the opposite, she is merciful. She stole Sandor's heart like the lady in the poem, in a symbolic way they lay together too and now he is errant, staying for a while in the QI but still a wanderer who can't find his way without his lady. He also gave up and died like the knight in the poem, he "died" lovesick and for love, like him. The difference is that he had a second chance and that his beautiful lady does have mercy and love in her. She won't be his death but his life.
I think revenge and anger blind Arya just like they did Sandor before but it's different with Sansa.D&D got it wrong, what happens to Arya is a tragedy and her story is not about how badass she is but about how anger and hate is stealing her humanity. And Sansa isn't weak and stupid, on the contrary, she is the beautiful lady with Mercy, somewhat like Virgin Mary for the catholics -and Martin was raised as a catholic- ; she is full of forgiveness. God is considered just but the believers pray to Mary, the mother, for mercy, redemption and forgiveness, to intercede for them before God. A virgin but also a "mother", that's what Sansa is in a way. Motherhood is in her, she is more a mother figure rather than a maiden figure as we commented before.
But this is not a religious story and Sansa's role won't be a religious one. She wants a partner for life, children and a family and so does the man she wants, he is the only character in the story that shows this desire, apart from her.She even notices how hard it is for him to give up this hope to accept a post in the KG.
They are attracted to each other and care for each other, he is already in love with her and she on the way of realising her feelings for him are very deep. He wants to love her and protect her, not only her because he is a "protector of men" and not only by name. She has love and forgiveness in her and was both like a mother and a maiden for him during that BoBW night, she sang the Mother's hymn to him, which was much like a catholic hymn to Virgin Mary, the mother of God.
Sansa is not Mary herseld but their symbolic marriage seems to have sacred connotations with all this symbology around. That sacred marriage you mentioned was probably founded and rooted that night and if it was no one and nothing will be able to separate them. She prayed for him and her prayer was heard, that's why he was spared by the gods.
The catholics ask Mary to intercede for them in front of God. Isn't this what Sansa did for Sandor? If this was so, like Mary, Sansa asked the gods to forgive Sandor for his sins and give him a new chance.
If this was a religious story Sansa would be some sort of angel to save his soul but she wouldn' belong to him or to any other.This is not that kind of story and the little bird-angel is passionate and desires her man with earthy longing. She also wants children and I think they are meant for marriage and renewing the land, that will be their role in this story.
Bamby would approve, Lol.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 9, 2015 15:51:49 GMT
"The Nazgul were the 60s, more than any other group, they were young and vital and angry, they had blood in their music ..... they had to be silenced". This quote supports our belief that songs are VERY important in Martin's universe. They are also extremely important in ASoIaF. Sansa's songs aren't silly things, they also represent values, a way of life, a code of honour. They were also used to remember the old days, the days of the heroes. Those only interested in power and wealth insist on caging her and silencing her, her songs, very much like the established power and corporations killed the ideals of the 60s.
She is a sort of symbol, like a singing bird they hold prisoner, as if they were resolved to kill all trace of innocence, beauty and idealism. That's why Littlefinger and Tyrion insist she should forget her songs because life is not like that.
And who else to be her object of desire but a man with long hair like a metal band singer, someone young, vital and angry who loves songs and stories as much as her? Both of them are often related to bood and bleed together more than once. They were somewhat linked by blood magic and green fire during the BOBW, but also by a sacred song and the vows he offered her (I could keep you safe) and she accepted by wrapping herself in his cloak by her own accord. The more I read the more sure I am they are meant to be together.
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 9, 2015 18:07:05 GMT
The Armageddon Rag paints these themes in broader strokes. I think in ASOIAF, GRRM is much subtler, but he is exploring the the same themes. And yes, songs ARE very important. As you say: and I don't know that I can add much more to what you say than just to shake my head vigorously . I was reading through GRRM's Notablog after reading a rumor that he might have finished the next book, and I saw a post where he was talking about his ex-wife and Parris, and he went on to mention how he met both of them at sic-fi conventions. From the post: Think of Sansa and Sandor. He is the ONLY character (besides Sweetrobin, I suppose, lol), who interacts with Sansa that seems to enjoy songs and stories as much as she does. Not that he comes right out and says it, but he knows the songs, requests songs from her, tells her stories of his life and his family with a storyteller's touch. He attempts to reenact the stories (as when he saves Loras at the tourney or when he tries to rescue Sansa at the Blackwater).
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 9, 2015 22:19:21 GMT
Gosh, how I hate the butcher! He is like Randill Tarly, treating his son Jeff even worse than Tarly treated Sam. But it's the same type of father with the same type of sweet unambitious son.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 10, 2015 11:14:09 GMT
When Sharon leaves Sandy he tells him:" you're juvenile, Sandy. I don't care about your dreams."
But his dreams were important, just like Sansa's and they come true as well.
When Littlefinger and Tyrion dismiss her dreams and try to deprive her of her songs, they make it clear they don't love her and never could. Tyrion never cared about any woman like Sandor does about Sansa. When he remembers Tysha it's all about himself and his self pity, never about her and her pain.
Sandor does love Sansa and his final thoughts are for her regretting that he couldn't be what he needed and was unable to protect her. I think this is meaningful for George and as you said love is rooted in shared dreams and hopes, as well as stories. If you try to change a person, don't care about their dreams and wnat to silence the music in them you don't love that person.
Another detail is that Sandy and Sharon don't think of each other during his absence, they don't miss each other. Sansa and Tyrion don't think of each other or miss each other when they are apart but with Sandor and Sansa it's the opposite, they can't take one another off each other's minds.
Also the colours and materials, ice, winter and the colour white stand for coldness, lack of love and death. Fire stands for passion and blood is related to magic in this book so far.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 10, 2015 11:23:23 GMT
Another thing is that Sharon can only feel pity for Sandy.
In ASoIaF it is said that pity is the death of passion and pity is what Sansa feels for Tyrion. She doen't dislike him but she doesn't care enough.
However, Sansa gets mad at Sandor and hates it when he talks with spite or shows anger, because she does care.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 10, 2015 16:36:49 GMT
"Before we reach the resurrection we have to pass through the fire." This is what Ananda says about the Rag. Fire is extremaly important in ASoIaF. Perhaps those dragons are needed before the new beginning. Fire means destruction but also cleansing. Fire will be necessary to end a corrupt world where wealth ( those golden Lannisters and Tyrells hold all the power) rules. Is this what's going to happen? Is fire enough to battle winter, death and the icy whitewalkers?
And what about Sandor? He was kissed by fire but also spared by R'ollor. Does his relation to fire have a meaning? Does it foreshadow anything?
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 10, 2015 18:08:45 GMT
"The rage and the love and the dreams they had lost were going to be summoned back to them and the true and terrifying voice of the 60s was going to be heard once more in the land."
This is the power of music in this stoty and it contains the heritage of an era. Also,that anger,in the same line as love and dreams.This is what makes book Sandor fascinating,that he has all the angst and red anger of youth. TV Sandor is a resigned weary soldier and has nothing of that anger,book Sandor is as Scary as he is mesmerizing because he's still full of dreams and love to experience and live. An older resigned Sandor doen't do because his anger and passion define him, he is no tame old dog, no way.
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 11, 2015 17:37:31 GMT
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 12, 2015 13:39:16 GMT
SPOILERS. IF YOU MEAN TO READ THE BOOK, DON'T READ AHEAD. This quote about Sandy gives an idea of how prone to violence Martin is: Anands to Sandy: "You don't believe in violence.Shoot me, kill me and you are just the same as I am, right?"
Or how nihilistic his view on life is: "Ah, my friend. You're older but no wiser. For in your heart the dreams are still the same.
Another quote, this time about his friend Maggy: "Her voice is joy and music and innocence.. It's Maggy's voice, the way she sounded a long time ago. "We're going back to the things we learned so well in our youth, to the days when we were young enough to know the truth."
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 14, 2015 3:14:54 GMT
I have so much I want to say about this book!! And I feel so incoherent and tired from work, but I'm going to try to string together a few ideas that have been on my mind . Exactly. Doesn't that remind you of Sandor Clegane? Mean, Razor-edged and threatening, but not violent (not at heart, not by choice, at least). Such anger is driven by passion and desire, which is necessary for creation and "a new resurgent order." If that's not the major theme of ASOIAF, I don't know what is. A new order, a time of creation, and creation is fueled by passion and desire. Without that drive, you have stagnancy and death--you are an ice-cold zombie. However, it's a fine balance, isn't it? Too much passion, too much anger and you are driven by revenge. Like Ananda, maybe? Like what the Hound persona? Sandor Clegane is angry, teetering on the edge, and he has to make a decision during the BoBW, just like Sandy makes his decision at the final Nazgul concert--to not commit the final act of violence. And when Sandy stays his hand, when he doesn't shoot, the RESURRECTION Rag begins. I think when Sandor made his choice to leave, he was started on the path of resurrection--we just haven't seen it played out yet, but there are plenty of signs. Think of Sharon, with her perfect lifestyle and not one ounce of desire or love in her for Sandy. There is not passion in her. In fact, I thought it was very telling when Sandy is remembering how quiet Sharon was when they made love, but the best part of making love with Ananda is that she talks to him. Ananda, of course, does not share the truth with Sandy, though he wants her to do so. With Sansa and Sandor however, how important is is that Sandor tells her about his scars, about his grandfather, about how he feels about the gods? I mean, it's not like we haven't discussed that before, but look! Here is a character named Sander who spends much of his time in bed with his lover TALKING, talking about old hurts and feeling better for it. Hmmmm. Sansa is no Ananda, but like Ananda, she talks back to Sandor, wakes up old dreams of chivalry and knighthood.
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 14, 2015 3:20:17 GMT
Fire will prepare the land for new growth. Just as we sometimes burn off the land to prepare it for planting crops, I think there is a similar idea here. You know how much I believe Sandor is going to be one of the "resurrected," one of the characters who helps rebuild the land and father children. He is burnt, gone through the crucible to burn off the false ideals--had he not been burnt, could he have been another Arys Oakheart? If Sansa had not gone through what she had gone through, would she have been just another silly fool, married off and bred by the highest bidder? The fire cleanses, prepares them for the new growth. Their encounter during the Blackwater was bathed in fire and blood. And we see in Armageddon Rag how important the blood magic is to the resurrection of the band.
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Post by sillierthings on Aug 14, 2015 3:22:30 GMT
And one last thing: yes, Randyll Tarley = the Butcher. Aren't they both disgusting!? Doesn't it make you wonder about poor GRRM and how he related to his father considering that I thought Martin said he identified most with Sam.
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Post by katie on Aug 14, 2015 4:25:16 GMT
Just wanted to say I've been loving following this thread but haven't had much to contribute since I haven't read this book, heehee, but I did want to address this:
I love the idea of Sandor's telling Sansa about his issues relieving some of his pain. I mean, he's NEVER told anyone about his burns before, and he probably hasn't talked much about his house, this thoughts on knights and the gods, etc. I think it's evident just by how gabby he is with Sansa that he doesn't talk to people very much at all; or at least people aren't willing to listen. But Sansa is, so he just lets it all out, and as we all know, talking is very good therapy, so just by talking to Sansa, that could have gone a long, long way in healing some of those long-festering wounds. And now he's on the QI talking Elder Bro's ears off, no doubt! ;-)
And, of course, the cornerstone of any healthy relationship is communication, and I think Sandor and Sansa already have that taken care of in spades, thankyouverymuch!
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Post by eyesofmist on Aug 14, 2015 11:07:05 GMT
But Ananda is a liar.She knows what Sandy needs. She says his "wet dreams" are contained in his books, which she read, and she pretends to love him and share conversations with him. Everything is fake, though, because she lies to him about her life and her feelings and intentions. She lies once and again. Sansa and Sandor are different because both of them are honest. She has to lie in order to survive, but even then, she is a terrible liar, as he points out.
Ananda deceives Sandy but Sandor and Sansa never deceive each other.
Anands is, in a way, like a the BWB people who think they have the right to impart justice,who think they are better, who feel entitled to judge others like Sandor. And like Ananda, they are wrong. Their cause may be just ( defeating the Lannisters,who are ravaging the land) but their methods are not. Their anachistic ways are not the solution.
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