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Post by sillierthings on Jun 13, 2015 14:05:31 GMT
I stopped watching Game of Thrones, and I feel better about it. However, I cannot help but keep track of it on tumblr. I'm still curious. With the roasting of Shireen in the latest episode, I started to feel almost better about the portrayal of Sansa's rape. The show is going so over the top with its rape and murder and nonsensical plot, that I am taking comfort that hopefully Sansa's marriage to Ramsay will be forgotten by people in favor of them raging about Shireen or the Sand Snakes or whatever else they are going to muck up. What they've done to her will just be one more disgusting tragedy in the dung heap they've made of the show. However, I was reading Armageddon Rag, and there are moments that reminded me of Sansa's mercy and optimism in the face of evil. There are moments in that novel where people choose to show mercy and kindness rather than seek vengeance. It's one of Martin's favorite themes it seems--vengeance will destroy you. Choosing mercy, even if it seems the "stupid" choice, is the right thing to do because it saves your own soul. This is the beauty of Sansa's arc and it's tied up with her sexual identity and her romantic love for Sandor (which is there) partly because he hss wrestled with the same choices. They both give mercy to people who maybe don't deserve it. Sandor receives mercy in almost supernatural ways--the Mother's Hymn, Arya refusing to kill him WAS a mercy in a way, the Elder Brother, maybe even the trial with Rh'llor "forgiving" him. Sansa has been spared from the things Jeyne Poole has gone through--I don't know if we can truly call this a mercy, but then again, maybe we can? She has been saved several times from rape, has managed to avoid molestation. I truly believe, as do many, that when Sansa does have sex, become a mother, it will be damned important thematically and narratively. And these television creeps, who probably didn't read more than half of the first book, completely destroyed that. It's not just that she's been raped, it's that Sansa just doesn't exist at all. This vengeful girl, who taunts her rapist and mistreats Theon is not Sansa. The real Sandor doesn't exist either--the raging, passionate man, so close to falling over the precipice and losing himself to The Hound, he manages to hold on to his kind "almost gentle" nature. These two characters serve as the unlikely moral backbone of the novel. Love, kindness, courtesy and forgiveness--they are not just for other people. They are necessary so you don't lose your very soul. The novel Armageddon Rag plays with the idea that the end song can be either an Armageddon Rag or a Resurrection Rag. A song of complete destruction or one of rebirth. The problem is, it's sometimes hard to tell which is which because both birth and death come covered in blood. I believe Martin is giving us a song of Resurrection. D & D have chosen to interpret it as the song of Armageddon. And for many people who will never pick up the books, they have destroyed Westeros and turned it into a nihilistic hell. I'm not saying D & D are the anti-Christ of Westeros, but I'm not NOT saying it either  . |
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Post by katie on Jun 13, 2015 17:39:18 GMT
Well... if the whispers I have heard about what happens to Sansa in tomorrow night's finale are true... then let's just say that her rape in Ep 5.6 was NOT the actual "traumatic scene" we were warned about...  At any rate, I for one hope people DON'T forget about her rape. It was rape in every sense of the word -- it was a rape of her body, it was a rape of her character, it was a rape of the viewer's standards and expectations of this show and the story its based on. A complete and utter violation. D&D are rapists. There, I said it! YES. This is a FUNDAMENTAL aspect of the very core of her character!!! I honestly don't believe that D&D understand the MAGNITUDE and ACTUAL REPERCUSSIONS of rape. It changes a person. FOREVER. Even if they manage to "overcome" it, they will never be the same. Especially if that rape is THEIR FIRST EVER SEXUAL EXPERIENCE. Do they have the slightest CLUE what that means??? No. I don't think they ever even gave it a second thought. All they saw was a plot device. Which is just so monumentally offensive and insensitive. I mean, Shireen was sad, but at least she's dead; Sansa has to live with this for the rest of her fucking life. In fact, I was scrolling through some pics from past seasons last night, and it occurred to me, with great sadness, that we will never see THIS Sansa again:  That Sansa -- with that sparkle in her eye and soft, joyful smile at something so natural as snow -- is GONE. Forever. In show-verse. She's still there in the books, though... Even though, in this scene, she thinks to herself that she doesn't "belong" in a "pure" world, we know that's not true. She's been through and seen a lot, yes, but SHE is still pure. AND THAT IS SO IMPORTANT. Because how many other characters in this story can say the same??? THAT is why Sansa Stark matters in this Song of Ice and Fire. But D&D have just turned her into yet another victim. But I get what you're saying -- the show as a whole has become such a trainwreck that Sansa's rape is only the tip of the iceberg, and people WON'T forget it, because if it had been just one slip-up in an otherwise respectable season, then people probably would end up forgetting about it, like Cersei's rape last season. But because this entire season HAS been just one abomination after another, Sansa's rape will not be forgotten or forgiven. |
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Post by sillierthings on Jun 13, 2015 19:23:17 GMT
Do I even want to know what they have planned for Sansa? I have not actively looked for spoilers, so I guess I'll wait until I see the rage on Tumblr on Monday. sigh.
THIS. THIS. THIS!
Sorry to go on about Armageddon Rag, but there is a character (eyesofmist, DON'T LOOK),
who is dead set on vengeance. She essentially loses her soul. You don't realize at first of course, and she uses sex casually, manipulating. Later she reveals that she really can't quite love anyone although she thinks in another life she could. You find out at the very end (and to be honest, Martin really doesn't explore the revelation as I think he should) that she was gang-raped as a teenager while helping her mother with some kind of peace-keeping movement. It MESSES HER UP, psychologically. Martin doesn't tell as much as he reveals how something like that messes with your head. He didn't do a great job with it, tbh. Not that he's disrespectful, but it's almost like he skirted the issue, maybe afraid to psycholanalyze too much. He drops that reveal and then you go back and think "Oh! That's why she's like that."
So, the rape of Sansa--I'm glad you got what I was trying to say. It is unforgivable and it still upsets me so much.
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Post by katie on Jun 13, 2015 20:36:24 GMT
I get the feeling GRRM probably "skirts the issue" the way he does because he's self-aware enough to realize that he probably wouldn't be able to explore the material in an authentic enough way -- being a man and all -- and therefore just doesn't go there. Better to be safe than sorry, and better to tip-toe around it than go full-in and completely muck it up, you know?
As it is, though, I think he handles these issues well enough. People give him a lot of flack for how he handles certain sensitive topics in ASOIAF, but we must all remember that he's relaying this info through other people's POVs. Certain things can get distorted when filtered through another person's lens.
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Post by sillierthings on Jun 14, 2015 4:09:59 GMT
I think you are right. Partly, that little tidbit of very important character development was dropped in a really casual way. Like, "she likes the color green, she was gang raped and her parents were activists" --that's not a literal quote, but it's kind of how the information was given. So it struck me as a bit...cavalier? Although, he did go into the after effects of rape in great detail with a male character, which now that I think about it, is pretty smart. He could probably see it from the male perspective better, so he explores it with that one character. Then, when he gives us that detail about the woman, we ought to know what she was feeling without him going into gory detail (and maybe making it more lurid) if we were paying any attention in the previous chapters. He IS clever, isn't he? He's extremely sensitive to the "unreliable" nature of the p.o.v. and how a change in perspective can color your whole understanding of a situation. I don't fault him in the way he handles issues like abuse, but this is one of those situations where I had JUST finished reading the text and now that I had time to reflect after reading your response, I realized he actually laid it all out for us but not because of her p.o.v but because of the storyline of another character. He does this quite a bit in ASOIAF, too. That's why ALL of the chapters are important (and why I see a lot of SanSan even when they aren't on the page ). Unfortunately, D & D are not capable of any sensitivity, and if the spoilers you heard are true, they are about to compound the horror of the wedding night episode. It's disgusting, and GRRM must be just writhing with impotent rage. At least, I hope he is and your prediction of TWOW release before season 6 comes true! |
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Post by sillierthings on Nov 8, 2015 18:48:09 GMT
My husband is slowly working his way through the series. He just finished ASOS, and last night, out of the blue, he suddenly exclaims, "I cannot BELIEVE they raped Sansa." This from a man who really wasn't that invested in any character except for Bran. This from a man who kept watching the series long after I stopped.
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Post by katie on Nov 9, 2015 20:22:53 GMT
Oh yeah. My mom is just about done with ASOS too, and every other day, she says something along the lines of "That is NOT what happened on the show!" or "Why did THAT happen on the show instead?" Etc. She's even said she no longer wants to watch the show at all because it's too confusing and coloring her perceptions of the books. I feel like any show-watcher with half a brain would have the same reaction if they actually did pull their heads out of D&D's asses for 2 seconds and cracked open a page. |
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Post by eyesofmist on Nov 28, 2015 19:21:23 GMT
As usual, I agree with everything you've said here,really,I couldn't agree more.
There are a couple of lines I'd like to comment on:
This is such an appropriate description of Sandor,brief but absolutely accurate. He's not like that in the show.Rory's Sandor is so different from book Sandor because there's resignation in him,not rage and passion. He is what book Sandor would probably become if he stayed as a Lannister dog any longer than he did in the books,if Sansa never appeared and changed his horizons.Sansa was hope for this man devoid of everything,devoid of even a slight trace of hope. And as you Sillier-things says, his real nature was kind, "almost" gentle but had nearly been engulfed by the Hound when Sansa turned up and "saved" him before it was too late. I can imagine him observing the Starks,the man who grew up in a family the word disfunctional can begin to define,in a household that was pure horror. And then he became a man as a Lannister lackey, being trained for war and killing. An orphan without a real family observing a loving family for the first time in his life,that's how he probably felt,like a kid looking at what he can't have and never had.
We can't imagine this as readers when he first appears in the books (he's the first member of Southerners' party accompanying Robert when they arrive in Winterfell, why is he the first to appear?)because we only see what everyone in his own world see in him: a huge, nasty,mean, sarcastic and horribly disfigured thug. When he killed Mycah this impression became much worse still. But he was that,an orphan, alone in the world,traumatised, deeply sad, hopeless,and "almost gentle" despite everything. I wonder how he didn't break before because this combination is impossible,it's the recipy for total emotional breakdown.
And their importance, his and Sansa's is precisely Mercy,as you've said, hope and forgiveness,which Sansa and Ned understand so well, better than any other characters in the story. They are considered weak and stupid by too may readers and show watchers because of this, but I agree with you that what matters in this song of ice and fire story is just this: mercy and forgiveness,honour and kindness,what Ned had, what he died for and what Sansa treasures and still keeps,despite everything she's endured. And this guys, D&D don't get it, they don't think Sansa's storylike is interesting because they don't think Martin is a man of hope, not a Nihilistic freak. Yes, the moral backbone of this story is in Sansa's hands and these guys think this is not enough, so they make up truculente and meaningless storylines for her,becuse they surely know better than GRRM. In fact, I'm sure the don't have a clue where the story really leads and how important Sansa and her capacity for love is.
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Post by sillierthings on Nov 29, 2015 3:57:30 GMT
In fact, I'm sure the don't have a clue where the story really leads and how important Sansa and her capacity for love is.
I had suspected this to be one of the most important themes in ASOIAF, but I wasn't so firmly convinced until I read Armageddon Rag. Over and over again in his novels, GRRM shows us the horror of life and then shows us that only love, friendship, mercy make any of it worthwhile. He's about as far from a nihilist as anyone I've ever read.
In fact, I was thinking about how much Camus and Kafka seem to have colored his characterization of Sandor. Not to oversimplify, but what is one of the most important ideas in Camus and Kafka's works: in an absurd world, all you have is your relationships with other people, that's the only meaning you are going to find, so be kind, find love.
Also, even though I really like Rory McCann, I don't care for his Hound though I think he's done the best that could be done with what he is given. He's just foul mouthed and dirty and seems down-trodden. Maybe Sandor would be like that given enough time in the Lannister service, but I sometimes wonder if he just wouldn't have gone out in a blaze of glory, gone suicidal in battle or something...rather than just become so worn down.
(and so glad you are back!)
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Post by katie on Dec 2, 2015 5:16:16 GMT
Oh yes, as I've written before, there is a reason GRRM made Sandor the age that he did -- that was not a trivial detail!! So by aging him a good 10-15 years like the show did, it really takes a lot of his edge away. When I first watched the show, Sandor struck me as very subdued but bitter... not at all like the simmering rage-monster he is in the books! And that's in large part due to the disparity in ages. The sort of trauma and abuse that Sandor endures as a kid looks much different on a 28-year-old than it does on a man in his 40s. As for GRRM's approach to ASOIAF, after (finally!) reading the Dunk & Egg stories, it seems clear to me that George is quite capable (and welcoming) of honor and mercy, as exemplified in Dunk. Having said that, I also read "The Rogue Prince" and "The Princess and The Queen", and yes, those stories are PAINFULLY nihilist, and I see them criticized for that. But I feel like those stories are simply meant as parables, to illustrate how vengeance, stubbornness, selfishness, patriarchy, and (perhaps most importantly) ruthless absolute monarchy are so destructive. And that's important, because it not only gives us a brutally honest idea of where the characters of ASOIAF come from, it also gives us an idea of where they are going -- that is, in the OPPOSITE direction. GRRM isn't going to write 7 fucking 1500-page books just to give us the same goddamn ending as the Dance of the Dragons, you know? This culture is being upended dramatically, THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT. And one that D&D clearly missed. (I mean, for R'hllor's sake, in Season 5, they had a scene depicting Shireen having to explain to Stannis what the Dance of the Dragons even was because, apparently, he was unfamiliar. WTF???) |
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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 3, 2015 21:31:25 GMT
Yes,I had read your post before and I agree completely. The character is completetly different in this case if you change his age,and that angst that is so Sandor's and that reminds us of an angsty teenager,but one who has very good reasons to feel this way. As several people have pointed out,he seems to have the emotional maturity of a teenager,despite his intelligence.
I also agree that D&D haven't understood what Martin's story is about and they don't care,which is worse. They just found a source to make a lot of money,because they don't have the talent to create a rich world like George has done,but they can use his creation to do their lame fanfiction. Most fanfiction writers show more respect to original work they have borrowed their characters from than these two, but these don't respect anything,they just want to make money, meaning or quality makes no matter for them.
All the violence, sex, fantasy and epic is mostly a means to convey a message,but these two are delivering a product without message,this is like a present where the wrapping is very attractive but contains nothing or contains something fake and disappointing. When you discover the real thing and can notice how rich it is, all the themes it touches,how deep it is,there's no way you can tolerate the show any more,most of us can't, at least.
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