Post by sillierthings on Apr 10, 2015 2:41:43 GMT
Lem Lemoncloak is quite an intriguing character, not the least reason being that he becomes the new Hound. There are some details that point to his path toward Hound-dom, details that make one think of Sandor/the Hound. First his description:
The man beside him stood a good foot taller, and had the look of a soldier. A longsword and dirk hung from his studded leather belt, rows of overlapping steel rings were sewn onto his shirt, and his head was covered by a black iron halfhelm shaped like a cone. He had bad teeth and a bushy brown beard, but it was his hooded yellow cloak that drew the eye. Thick and heavy, stained here with grass and there with blood, frayed along the bottom and patched with deerskin on the right shoulder, the greatcloak gave the big man the look of some huge yellow bird.
So, I came across this in A Feast for Crows:
This is Lem Lemoncloak preparing to hang Brienne, Pod, and Ser Hyle, but GRRM refers to him as The Hound throughout this scene because he has put the helmet on. I've tried to find all the references to Lem Lemoncloak in the series, and the thing that sticks out to me is that he fundamentally seemed to TRY to be loyal and good. He followed Beric. He was loyal to the brothers. He believed in Rh'llor. He had brown teeth and was rude, but he doesn't strike me as evil until we get to this last chapter. Thoros pleads with him to put away the Hound's helmet, but this holy man cannot get through to THIS Hound:
It seems to me that Lem is adopting the attitude of if you can't protect yourself, get out of the way those who can when he tells Thoros to close his eyes. He's a Sandor Clegane in reverse it would seem. And what I find most intriguing is in one of Lem Lemoncloak's very last bits of dialogue we learn that he had a wife and a daughter that were lost somehow. Here's the question, if Lem Lemoncloak is a kind of inverse Hound, could this mean that Sandor Clegane might be heading toward gaining a wife and daughter?
I know, I know. My tin foil hat is showing, but I had not realized how much Lem shows up in Arya's chapters and then in Brienne's, and he has several interactions with the Hound, is compared to the Hound in size. There is even this scene that I thought was telling:
And there are other scenes:
A discussion of a kiss and a demand for a song and here:
Whether or not Sandor got a kiss from Sansa seems to be up for debate, but he definitely gave her his sword. Do you think Sansa's kisses would taste of lemons? Sandor's certainly would have tasted of wine.
Lem is also fairly decent to Arya. A few times he speaks up for her. He's rough. She breaks his nose, but they also end up sleeping next to each other at the Inn (Gendry's on her other side), so he's not out to hurt her or any of the other children.
I know my thoughts are scattered, but Lem Lemoncloak had a wife and child. Something happened to them. He took up with the brothers and seemed to be faithful to the religion, loyal to the band. After the loss of Beric, he begins to lose his way and become the Hound. Compare this to Sandor Clegane who we meet as the Hound, who loses his master, finds religion and a mentor at the Quiet Isle. Could it be that he is poised to become Lem Lemoncloak? And who is it that loves lemons? Could she be a wife who gives him a daughter?
Come! Join me in my delusions.
The man beside him stood a good foot taller, and had the look of a soldier. A longsword and dirk hung from his studded leather belt, rows of overlapping steel rings were sewn onto his shirt, and his head was covered by a black iron halfhelm shaped like a cone. He had bad teeth and a bushy brown beard, but it was his hooded yellow cloak that drew the eye. Thick and heavy, stained here with grass and there with blood, frayed along the bottom and patched with deerskin on the right shoulder, the greatcloak gave the big man the look of some huge yellow bird.
So, I came across this in A Feast for Crows:
Beneath a crooked willow, the outlaws slipped a noose about her neck, jerked it tight, and tossed the other end of the rope over a limb. Hyle Hunt and Podrick Payne were given elms. Ser Hyle was shouting that he would kill Jaime Lannister, but the Hound cuffed him across the face and shut him up. He had donned the helm again. "If you got crimes to confess to your gods, this would be the time to say them."
"Podrick has never harmed you. My father will ransom him. Tarth is called the sapphire isle. Send Podrick with my bones to Evenfall, and you'll have sapphires, silver, whatever you want."
"I want my wife and daughter back," said the Hound. "Can your father give me that? If not, he can get buggered. The boy will rot beside you. Wolves will gnaw your bones."
"Do you mean to hang her, Lem?" asked the one-eyed man. "Or do you figure to talk the bitch to death?"
The Hound snatched the end of the rope from the man holding it. "Let's see if she can dance," he said, and gave a yank.
"Podrick has never harmed you. My father will ransom him. Tarth is called the sapphire isle. Send Podrick with my bones to Evenfall, and you'll have sapphires, silver, whatever you want."
"I want my wife and daughter back," said the Hound. "Can your father give me that? If not, he can get buggered. The boy will rot beside you. Wolves will gnaw your bones."
"Do you mean to hang her, Lem?" asked the one-eyed man. "Or do you figure to talk the bitch to death?"
The Hound snatched the end of the rope from the man holding it. "Let's see if she can dance," he said, and gave a yank.
This is Lem Lemoncloak preparing to hang Brienne, Pod, and Ser Hyle, but GRRM refers to him as The Hound throughout this scene because he has put the helmet on. I've tried to find all the references to Lem Lemoncloak in the series, and the thing that sticks out to me is that he fundamentally seemed to TRY to be loyal and good. He followed Beric. He was loyal to the brothers. He believed in Rh'llor. He had brown teeth and was rude, but he doesn't strike me as evil until we get to this last chapter. Thoros pleads with him to put away the Hound's helmet, but this holy man cannot get through to THIS Hound:
The biggest of the four wore a stained and tattered yellow cloak. "Enjoy the food?" he asked. "I hope so. It's the last food you're ever like to eat." He was brown-haired, bearded, brawny, with a broken nose that had healed badly. I know this man, Brienne thought. "You are the Hound."
He grinned. His teeth were awful; crooked, and streaked brown with rot. "I suppose I am. Seeing as how m'lady went and killed the last one." He turned his head and spat.
She remembered lightning flashing, the mud beneath her feet. "It was Rorge I killed. He took the helm from Clegane's grave, and you stole it off his corpse."
"I didn't hear him objecting."
Thoros sucked in his breath in dismay. "Is this true? A dead man's helm? Have we fallen that low?"
The big man scowled at him. "It's good steel."
"There is nothing good about that helm, nor the men who wore it," said the red priest. "Sandor Clegane was a man in torment, and Rorge a beast in human skin."
"I'm not them."
"Then why show the world their face? Savage, snarling, twisted . . . is that who you would be, Lem?"
"The sight of it will make my foes afraid."
"The sight of it makes me afraid."
"Close your eyes, then." The man in the yellow cloak made a sharp gesture. "Bring the whore."
He grinned. His teeth were awful; crooked, and streaked brown with rot. "I suppose I am. Seeing as how m'lady went and killed the last one." He turned his head and spat.
She remembered lightning flashing, the mud beneath her feet. "It was Rorge I killed. He took the helm from Clegane's grave, and you stole it off his corpse."
"I didn't hear him objecting."
Thoros sucked in his breath in dismay. "Is this true? A dead man's helm? Have we fallen that low?"
The big man scowled at him. "It's good steel."
"There is nothing good about that helm, nor the men who wore it," said the red priest. "Sandor Clegane was a man in torment, and Rorge a beast in human skin."
"I'm not them."
"Then why show the world their face? Savage, snarling, twisted . . . is that who you would be, Lem?"
"The sight of it will make my foes afraid."
"The sight of it makes me afraid."
"Close your eyes, then." The man in the yellow cloak made a sharp gesture. "Bring the whore."
It seems to me that Lem is adopting the attitude of if you can't protect yourself, get out of the way those who can when he tells Thoros to close his eyes. He's a Sandor Clegane in reverse it would seem. And what I find most intriguing is in one of Lem Lemoncloak's very last bits of dialogue we learn that he had a wife and a daughter that were lost somehow. Here's the question, if Lem Lemoncloak is a kind of inverse Hound, could this mean that Sandor Clegane might be heading toward gaining a wife and daughter?
I know, I know. My tin foil hat is showing, but I had not realized how much Lem shows up in Arya's chapters and then in Brienne's, and he has several interactions with the Hound, is compared to the Hound in size. There is even this scene that I thought was telling:
The buxom red-haired innkeep howled with pleasure at the sight of them, then promptly set to tweaking them. "Greenbeard, is it? Or Greybeard? Mother take mercy, when did you get so old? Lem, is that you? Still wearing the same ratty cloak, are you? I know why you never wash it, I do. You're afraid all the piss will wash out and we'll see you're really a knight o' the Kingsguard!
And there are other scenes:
"Dreams," grumbled Lem Lemoncloak, "what good are dreams? Fish women and drowned crows. I had a dream myself last night. I was kissing this tavern wench I used to know. Are you going to pay me for that, old woman?"
"The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now." And then to Tom Sevenstrings she said, "I'll have my song or I'll have you gone."
"The wench is dead," the woman hissed. "Only worms may kiss her now." And then to Tom Sevenstrings she said, "I'll have my song or I'll have you gone."
A discussion of a kiss and a demand for a song and here:
Thoros and Lem were with Lord Beric when the dwarf woman sat down uninvited by the fire. She squinted at them with eyes like hot coals. "The Ember and the Lemon come to honor me again, and His Grace the Lord of Corpses."
"I cannot eat a silver stag, nor ride one. A skin of wine for my dreams, and for my news a kiss from the great oaf in the yellow cloak." The little woman cackled. "Aye, a sloppy kiss, a bit of tongue. It has been too long, too long. His mouth will taste of lemons, and mine of bones. I am too old."
"Aye," Lem complained. "Too old for wine and kisses. All you'll get from me is the flat of my sword, crone."
"I cannot eat a silver stag, nor ride one. A skin of wine for my dreams, and for my news a kiss from the great oaf in the yellow cloak." The little woman cackled. "Aye, a sloppy kiss, a bit of tongue. It has been too long, too long. His mouth will taste of lemons, and mine of bones. I am too old."
"Aye," Lem complained. "Too old for wine and kisses. All you'll get from me is the flat of my sword, crone."
Whether or not Sandor got a kiss from Sansa seems to be up for debate, but he definitely gave her his sword. Do you think Sansa's kisses would taste of lemons? Sandor's certainly would have tasted of wine.
Lem is also fairly decent to Arya. A few times he speaks up for her. He's rough. She breaks his nose, but they also end up sleeping next to each other at the Inn (Gendry's on her other side), so he's not out to hurt her or any of the other children.
I know my thoughts are scattered, but Lem Lemoncloak had a wife and child. Something happened to them. He took up with the brothers and seemed to be faithful to the religion, loyal to the band. After the loss of Beric, he begins to lose his way and become the Hound. Compare this to Sandor Clegane who we meet as the Hound, who loses his master, finds religion and a mentor at the Quiet Isle. Could it be that he is poised to become Lem Lemoncloak? And who is it that loves lemons? Could she be a wife who gives him a daughter?
Come! Join me in my delusions.