maidenpools
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hyped for a re-read!!
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 11, 2015 10:45:52 GMT
Sandor says that death is the sweetest thing there is, but do you think he really believes that? I think he believes what he says because he has to. He's been a weapon since he was 12 years old - he's a skilled and efficient killer, and that's really the only thing in his life he's praised for and can take pride in. It defines his Hound persona as well, a harmful identity that Sandor loathes but also clings to because what is a dog (as he thinks of himself) without a master? That's what he tries to figure out in A Storm of Swords as he wanders around the ruined countryside with Arya. He's trying to redefine himself and find some new purpose (perhaps as a lordling for the Starks as he mentions to Arya before they find out what happened at the Red Wedding), because Sansa peeled away his Hound identity and exposed the vulnerable, frightened, confused man beneath who desperately wants to be a true knight. It's also important to note the way in which Sandor avoids violence if he can, and when he does kill, he's quick about it. He takes no pleasure in prolonging a person's death, and is the one to show Arya how to give someone the gift of mercy. Here's a good bit of analysis about this subject you may have already read. Thoughts?
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 15, 2015 20:37:16 GMT
It sounds weird when he claims killing is the sweetest thing there is,because we never have the idea that he gets any pleasure from that. As you have pointed out,he avoids violence when he is in the Riverlands like a stray dog, he might be derailed and desperate without money,a purpose, a master or a future. Moreover,he has lost Sansa and probably has no hope to see her again. In the worst possible scenario,he doesn't show a violent or cruel behaviour and only fights and kills when he has to defend his life. Is this the terrible monster who said killing is the sweetest thing there is? The only time it seemed he enjoyed killing was when he killed Mycah and he laughed about it, but we didn't really know what he was like when that happened. The readers thought he was a monster because he looked like one and liked to act the monster everyone thought him to be. Besides,Sandor laughs in strange situations and it is not clear why he laughs,perhaps in self-derision or self-loathing. His eyes glimmered behind the Hound helm when he killed Mycah and this is an ambiguous image to say the least. In fact, I don't think he enjoyed killing a boy on the run like Sandor himself had been some years before, about the same age he was when he had to leave Clegane keep to save his life. The boy was a butcher's boy and Sandor calls himself butcher, he says he is the butcher and the people he kills are the meat, so this killing must have had a symbolic meaning, being his lowest point. Sandor can go no further down the path to hell than he is at this point. From that moment he could have been lost for ever but he met Sansa and I think she saved him from himself and the nightmare that was his life. I say this because she opened his eyes. He tried to open hers to the horrors of life but I think she rather opened his to hope and beauty. I really don't know what that statement means in the story because it goes against his character. As the elder brother says, he finds no joy in fighting or serving,he only lives for the day he will kill his brother,but never really wanting to kill him, because he didn't try to do so when he had the chance. He also laughed when he scared away the mob who were trying to assault Sansa and kill him,his face seemed different for a moment but I don't know how. Did he feel joy then? The thrill of the moment perhaps? Is this an embodiment of the beserker myth? tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheBerserkerThis is interesting: That blind anger Sandor feels, his bright eyes or his transformed face and laugh when he fights and kills seems to hint at the beserker trope. It's mindless fury disregarding one's safety and there is only one thing that Sandor is afraid of, fire. Apart form this,it seems he doesn't fear anything,just like the beserkers. The beserkers were thought to wear bear pelts or to fight as fiercely as bears and this animal is the origin of the name beserker. They were said to fight so fiercely they seemed to seek death in battle. As Sandor doesn't believe in an afterlife where he would find a reward for his bravery in battle,his glee when he is fighting could be caused by a death desire,some suicidal streak where death would be a sort of mercy to end the pain of life. This makes sense because we know how tortured and conflicted his soul is. The way he killed the soldier in agony was nearly tender,he did it in a "loving" way,as if this was what he would like another human being to do for him one day. We know he didn't obtain this mercy from Arya. Perhaps he killed Mycah thinking it some act of mercy because,what would have happened to the boy if he was captured and taken to Cersei? What happened to the singer and to lady Stokeworth's daughter? Cersei is very cruel and his son was hurt by a lawborn boy,as far as she knows. Sandor's idea of death is twisted by his experiences as his has been a life marked by death. Perhaps he doesn't see death as something terrible,perhaps he thinks of it as a sort of mercy to end pain. Saying it is the sweetest thing there is would make sense then.
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 16, 2015 1:24:16 GMT
I agree with eyesofmist's post. If Sandor did enjoy killing, you would think he would seek more opportunities to kill when he was running wild, with no master, no loyalties, nothing to lose. He did not though. In fact, he spends this "free" time saving a little girl and helping build a wall to protect a village. He kills not a single member of the Brotherhood, even though they had taken away every penny he had. He does no harm to the ferryman. He does not kill the pig farmer from whom he steals the cart and clothes to get them into the Red Wedding. Any killing he does at the Red Wedding is purely for survival, and he takes the time to save Arya from going to a certain death. The one man he kills who was not killed for survival, he kills "tenderly" and with mercy. I thought your idea of Sandor having a kind of suicide wish is likely true. I think as I've been rereading the text, that Sandor seems to advise others according to what he himself desires. Eyesofmist analyzed that scene where he tells Sansa to smile, be sweet, be Joff's ladylove as being what Sandor himself would want. I think that's a really valid reading. He also tells Sansa to save herself some pain and give them what they want, which is exactly what he appears to do. In Winterfell, he expresses a wish for Bran to die faster--wishing the maimed, 7-year-old boy a merciful death is something I could see Sandor wishing to have had for himself, when HE was a maimed 7-year-old boy, betrayed by his father and brother. Even when he goes to Sansa's room and pulls the knife on her, Sansa thinks he means to kill her. Sansa is good at picking up Sandor's intent. She was not afraid when he pulled the longsword on her just a few days before. They were all alone on top of the holdfast and he laid his sword on her neck. She did not fear him then. Whatever was going on in Sandor's head the night of the Blackwater, and there was a lot going on, I think one part of him was probably going to give Sansa the mercy rather than leave her to Joffrey's cruelty and/or the horrors of the invading soldiers. True to the nihilistic themes that surround him, Sandor wants to die. He is the butcher, the Stranger personified. He rides a black horse and brings death. I'm thinking back to other novels which show this existentialist crisis--The Stranger (The Outsider, for those outside of America , The Plague, Death in Venice, The Metamorphosis--these all have characters who only wake up to life after facing death, and there is often a morbid fascination with death (at least in Mann's work). To oversimplify, there are basically two ways a character in a crisis such as Sandor's can go--they receive the epiphany before they die of what life is really about (perhaps finding meaning in their final moments, like Merseult, perhpas) or having faced death, they are invigorated to live, having a new appreciation for life, shaking off the dulling apathy of existence to live, truly live, until they die (Ah! Ygritte! There you are!). The Hound is dead. Sandor Clegane is at rest--facing the consequences of death every day as the Gravedigger (I'm again reminded of Camus's the Plague, which had our characters doing a similar service for the plague victims). I have to believe Martin is setting him up to come back to life, full of sap and eager to live. Regarding the killing of Mycah, as you say, we find out later in the narrative that Sandor laughs at really inappropriate times. Even when he is seemingly dying of his wounds at the inn, bleeding out, he makes a joke--in the immediate aftermath of killing The Tickler and everyone else--he jokes that he wants to see Arya marry Sweetrobin. Then he tries to laugh but it turns into a groan. It's the last time the Hound tries to laugh so far in the series, and he can't quite get it out. The killing of Mycah, a young boy playing at being a knight, could be part of the death wish. Remember that he calls himself a butcher. Mycah is the butcher's boy. I wonder how much of the enjoyment of killing comes from imagining himself being killed, being put out of his misery. So, to some degree, does Sandor enjoy killing? Maybe, if he's thinking of it as putting people out of their misery. I think on some level, too, though, he's probably taking pleasure in doing his job. Being efficient and the best that he can be. I think, despite the little idealistic boy that's still there somewhere, he does believe in "kill or be killed," and "might makes right." Before Sansa, maybe killing was a way of establishing himself as top of the pack, which for someone as hurt as he was could be almost comforting? I don't know. This is a lot of speculation and hard to prove. I will say, when Sansa sees his face "transformed" I suspect it has something to do with the fact that for maybe the first time in his life, he is killing for a noble purpose--to save the fair maiden. He is the ultimate killing machine, and maybe there is a sense of being a berserkr there (which for Sansa, who admires his ferocity, might be rather attractive, especially given the circumstances). I wonder, though, if he were transformed because at that moment, he truly was the hero, saving the girl, being what (we suspect) he always wanted to be. And then the fair maiden forgot to thank him...poor Sandor.
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maidenpools
Junior Member
hyped for a re-read!!
Posts: 50
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 16, 2015 4:45:02 GMT
Excellent points, ladies! It's amazing how different my impression of Sandor was when I re-read the books - and picking up on Sandor's desire for a merciful death for Mycah and Bran (from his perspective anyway) was one of them, among other things, like his apparent death wish at times. I love reading what you all have to say.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 16, 2015 12:05:32 GMT
Yes,I also think he was sorry for Bran and he reminded him of himself at seven,maimed for ever and in horrible pain. For Sandor it was even worse because he felt betrayed by his family and the rug had been stolen from under his feet, making it impossible for him to believe in justice or to feel safe or capable of trusting people again. Imagining poor Bran crippled for ever,unable to walk or fight,unable to defend himself must have been the worst possible scenario.
As for killing the direwolf, we know Sandor is good to animals,I don't think he suggested this out of cruelty either.
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