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Post by eyesofmist on Dec 12, 2015 18:28:51 GMT
What do you think of this quote: What if Sansa and Sandor's feelings are not mutual, if one falls for the other but his/her feelings are unrequited? My impression is that both have fallen for each other,they are probably at different stages but going the same direction. Her feelings seem more heated and his more romantic but we don't have access to his thoughts,only to his words, so if he imagines her in his bed,like she imagines him in hers we wouldn't know. George's comment is worrying anyway, though perhpas he's playing with his fans a bit. What do you think?
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Post by sillierthings on Dec 12, 2015 19:08:03 GMT
I suspect that it was NOT romantic to Sansa until much later. Instinctually, she was reacting to him in a romantic way, touching his face and wrapping herself in his cloak, but it's not until he's gone that she starts to romanticize him, starts to figure out just what was going on with him. I tend to think that the Hound started out with platonic feelings for Sansa, sensing in her a kindred spirit -- an idealistic little lady just as he was an idealistic little knight at heart-- who was going to get chewed up the the lions of King's Landing. While he finds her a pretty little girl, says as much to her, I get NO sense that there is anything romantic in his actions toward her until the Serpentine scene.
(As an aside, it's significant that it happens on the Serpentine stairs. I know it is, but I cannot explain adequately for myself. I want to say it's phallic or something, but that seems too easy a conclusion)
Although, even the Serpentine is not so romantic as it is erotic. He is the most blatantly sexual towards her in that scene, though he serves as a guard for her, very chivalrous to protect her from Boros and lead her safely to her room.
From that point on, his romantic gestures start...saving her like a hero from the bread riots, for example. And it's when he starts to get frustrated with her, REALLY frustrated with her for not seeing him as the hero, for not understanding his romantic overtures. So, we get the scene atop Maegor's Holdfast where he is reacting like a spurned lover with her. She doesn't really understand and he tells her to go away. But INSTINCTUALLY, her romantic and erotic feelings are being awakened too. She has the violent and erotic dream of her belly turning to wet ribbons and she flowers during a dream of him saving her from the riot. The mob had garbage and rocks. Only Sandor had the sword. And in the dream, the sword plunges into her belly. And later, we have Sansa's dreams getting even more blatant with a naked Sandor in her marriage bed.
What I find interesting is that these romantic feelings between Sansa and Sandor seem to follow this trajectory --->platonic feelings of care (He's trying to help her, She feels bad for him)----->sexualized feelings (you've got teats! sing me a song! from him and her two erotic dreams where he is featured but not named)---->romantic longing (the little bird sang me a song when I saved her, from him and her thoughts of him stealing a song and a kiss and leaving her nothing but a bloody cloak).
So, GRRM is being coy, I'm sure, and playing with the fans, but Sansa and Sandor do have a romantic relationship, but they did not reach the same stage of the relationship at the same time. Rightly so, since she was so young. The separation between them is letting Sansa catch up to where Sandor already is.
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Post by katie on Dec 12, 2015 21:16:47 GMT
Yeah, someone sent me an ask a while back asking what I made of that quote of George's, and basically what I interpret that as referring to is how both parties process their relationship after the fact, after their separation -- while Sansa is remembering Sandor fondly and missing him to the point of inventing a kiss between them, Sandor is tortured by his behavior toward Sansa and constantly beating himself up for (in his mind) letting her down. So yeah, I don't think George was wrong; he's simply reminding us that perception is subjective.
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Post by sillierthings on Dec 13, 2015 3:48:12 GMT
Just thinking further on my previous post in regards to how Sansa and Sandor's feelings develop, it seems like the ideal way to fall in love. Friendship --->wow, he's/she's hot! ---> true love . They start as what I might tentatively call "friends." They are looking out for each other and have an understanding of each other's point of view. They can relate to each other's suffering. Sansa doesn't stick her neck out to save Sandor the way he does for her, at least not in a physical way, but I think it was Katie who mentioned in another post how she calls him out on letting people put him down: Why do you let them call you a dog? You won't let anyone call you a knight? In other words, you are a better person than you think you are. She's trying to save something human in him, reaching out to the who man told her about his scars, the man who cries when she sings to him later on. To me, these feelings of care, this connection they have eventually leads to their romantic feelings, but it could have stopped here. For people who read the novels and see the Sansa/Sandor connection but don't believe it to be romantic, I understand why they might think that. The development of the other feelings is rather subtle, and in a way, the most interesting part of their connection to one another is this "platonic" love, this soul-connection which is beautiful just on its own. The physical attraction between the two is quite sudden. I mean, I always thought Sandor's erotic attraction to Sansa starts when she literally hits him full body when she "caroms" into him on the Serpentine. Her attraction to him is later, but it's also tinged with that violence that Eyesofmist remarked upon in another post. Violent in its sudden intensity -- dreams of his sword in her belly and dreams of him in her bed. It's pure and instinctual for them both. It's not an intellectual attraction. He's horribly disfigured, so while I don't believe him as ugly and dirty as some interpret him to be, he's not beautiful, but the heart and the body want what they want, and Sansa and Sandor want each other. It's there on the page. When you have a true understanding of each other's nature and care for the well-being of that person AND you have a physical attraction to each other, that's love. Pure and simple. Jaime and Brienne follow a similar pattern. They become friends who protect each other. They begin to notice a physical attraction (he approves of her naked body and her big blue eyes, even as he intellectually denies it. She tries to fantasize about Renly and comes back to Jaime). It's pretty well understood by most readers that Jaime and Brienne love each other. I don't understand why it's so hard to see that Sansa and Sandor follow the same pattern.
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Post by katie on Dec 13, 2015 4:05:16 GMT
The age difference. Which is a bullshit excuse because the age difference between Jaime and Brienne is exactly the same.
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Post by sillierthings on Dec 13, 2015 4:20:05 GMT
True. George really did mess up the ages. Or he messed up when he wasn't able to age everyone up 5 years. Which would have made Sansa 18 and Sandor 35 when they meat again, which...hey! Isn't that how old Brienne and Jaime are ? That 5 year gap would have given Sandor's leg time to heal completely and would have given him time to truly gentle his rage. It would have given Sansa time to grow up, learn to run the household and be truly ready for a romance. As it is, I'm hoping he can play with the timeline enough to let her be bit more grown up, but I DO NOT WANT TO WAIT UNTIL THE LAST BOOK FOR THEM TO MEET AGAIN!!! If the next book does not come out soon, I will pop a vein. I swear. In that Sansa chapter GRRM released, Sansa seems much more grown up and Sweetrobin is said to have pimples on his chest. If the 5 year gap had remained, Sweetrobin would just be hitting puberty and his talk of keeping Sansa as a mistress in that chapter doesn't seem so strange coming from the mouth of a 13 year old. I wonder if he's going to be able to let some time pass for these characters before the the plot picks up again.
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Post by katie on Dec 13, 2015 4:27:28 GMT
I get the feeling that ADOS might end up being one giant 1,000-page epilogue, LOL. In which case, George can implement a passage of time then. I agree, though, I do hope they at least meet again in TWOW, perhaps toward the end as a "cliffhanger", and then ADOS picks up wherever it picks up. I just don't want the loss of the 5-year gap to mean that we lose SanSan too. :-(
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