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Post by sillierthings on Feb 13, 2015 18:21:16 GMT
In the discussion of Bran's chapter, we had discussed Jon's surname Snow very briefly. I had suggested that upon the re-read, the last name Snow took on a more ominous connotation, especially since the only other Snow in the story is Ramsay, who is as close to pure evil as GRRM gets in his characterization. I was looking at the scene where Jon and Ygritte first exchange names: Ygritte flinches when Jon says his name and claims it is evil. Jon tells her it's a bastard name. What do Wildlings care about bastards? They don't. I propose that she flinches because Snow is EVIL. Snow is death. Snow needs the blood sacrifice. Snow drinks the blood eagerly when Ned chops off Gared's head. Maybe? It's an odd detail, because it's not really addressed further, and it makes me all the more curious about Jon's ultimate fate. I do believe he is the hero. He has his Samwell after all. He is our Frodo. But more and more, I am very curious about the ghosts, and red eyes, and other images that surround him. And because I have to do it: Notice how when Jon first meets Ygritte, he holds a dagger to her neck, pricks her so she bleeds. Then they fall in love. There was another man who held a dagger to a red-haired girl's neck while she bled. Coincidence?
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maidenpools
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hyped for a re-read!!
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Feb 13, 2015 21:33:16 GMT
Post by maidenpools on Feb 13, 2015 21:33:16 GMT
There sure are a lot of couples in this series who have threatened each other with violence at some point! Goodness.
I think you're really onto something here. I mean, the series is called a Song of Ice and Fire - ice and snow and death are obviously associated with the White Walkers and who knows what Jon's fate currently is. I'm excited and frightened to find out.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 13, 2015 23:55:24 GMT
If you compare the way Jon used his dirk on Ygritte with this:
When you compare both, it is clear they are not really about violence but some sort of love game, a ritual. Jon never wanted to kill Ygritte and we know that later he made love to her. He couldn't have a life with her because of his vows, he is a man with a mission.
Sandor is different but very similar in a way and he doesn't have a mission that is not Sansa.She is the comet in his sky. By the rule of three Sansa and Sandor will be the romance that will come to fruition,as you said,sillier-things. Three dark-haired grey-eyed men in love with three red-haired women. Don't tell me this is accidental and that it means nothing. The other couples belong to the past (Ned&Cat,Jon&Ygritte)but Sandor and Sansa's story is still waiting ,like his cloak inside her hope chest.
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 14, 2015 4:12:49 GMT
I think there may be even more similarities between the Jon/Ygritte passage and the Blackwater scene. I've highlighted the relevant bits for comparison in each passage:
Shortly after this, Ygritte tells, though she does not sing, the song of Bael the Bard to Jon. Quorin and the others leave Jon alone with Ygritte so he can kill her, and Ebben even says a "steel kiss" will silence her as he pulls out his dagger. Ygritte tries to convince Jon to come away WITH her, so they can both live. She tells him Mance would accept him, but he refuses. (I'm seeing a lot of similarities here: a song, a request to run away together)
Jon lays his sword on Ygritte's neck to prepare for the beheading. Jon asks Ygritte if she is afraid. Recall that Sandor laid his sword on Sansa's neck shortly after she asked him if he were afraid of dying. Sansa felt the sharpness. Ygritte shivers and feels the cold. Ultimately, Jon lets Ygritte go free, but that's not the last he's going to see of her. When they meet again, they begin their love affair. I cannot help but hope that this could point to a similar reunion for Sansa and Sandor.
Compare this to Blackwater. First of all, this passage from the chapter when Sansa learns Cersei means to have Payne behead her if Stannis wins:
Obviously, this is not quite the same, since Sansa's not baring her neck to Sandor as Ygritte bares her neck to Jon, but it is right before she finds the Hound in her bed. Jon finds Ygritte in "bed" in her furs, ostensibly sleeping when he pulls his knife on her. Sansa finds the Hound in her bed sleeping before he pulls the knife on her.
You have both red-haired girls having the dagger placed at their throats and being twisted, pushed into the throat. Jon goes a bit farther and actually cuts Ygritte, and she wipes the blood away and looks at the "wetness." Sansa feels the "wetness that was not blood" when she touches Sandor's cheek.
Jon can smell the onion on Ygritte's breath, and Sansa can smell the wine, blood and vomit, and in previous meetings she has smelled the sour stench of wine on his breath. We know Jon and Ygritte become lovers, so the onion breath obviously didn't put him off. I'm beginning to think Sandor's smells are maybe not so off-putting to Sansa.
Also, Ygritte is described as having "fear and fire" in her eyes. Sansa notes that the Hound's eyes glow like a dog's in the wildfire. His eyes are also "wide, white and terrifying."
Like Ygritte beseeching Jon to come away with her so they could both live, Sandor offers to take Sansa away to protect her from those who would hurt her. Jon refuses because of his vows. Sansa refuses because, well, we don't know why she refuses, exactly, except she's frightened, probably a little drunk and he did not exactly state what he wanted very clearly.
One last comparision. When Ebben suggests the "steel kiss," Jon says:
He does not want to kill her. She yielded. She told him the song of Bael the Bard. He does not want to behead this red-haired girl who reminds him of Arya.
And we know that Sandor's "voice [is] raw and harsh as steel on stone" when he says "Little Bird," as he walks away from her, no longer able to kill her, ravish her, whatever the Hound intended to do, he cannot do it.
So, I think there are a lot of similarities here. Another of those grey-eyed man/red-haired girl pairings, and like Jon and Ygritte, I think Sansa and Sandor will meet again.
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Feb 14, 2015 11:13:05 GMT
Post by eyesofmist on Feb 14, 2015 11:13:05 GMT
You know I agree with all this,about the subtext suggesting something sexual the words convey. the situation is not sexual but the words when isolated are. In Jon's case,these words indicated what was to come (love making and Ygritte loving Jon,I'm not sure how deeply he loved her though) so I'm quite sure it will be the same for Sandor and Sansa.
I have noticed other things too:
The "evil queen" makes a promise,saying the Starks won't obtain any joy from the fall of House Lannister. Is this foreshadowing? House Lannister will fall then,even worse than it has already fallen. Sansa saw Joff die and she didn't feel joy,perhaps all of them will fall and the Starks won't feel joy when that happens.
We also have the archetypical "evil queen" threatening the girl's head (the crazy queen in Alice in Wonderland kept doing that all the time,for instance)and, as sillier-things has pointed out before in her meta,this contains sexual innuendo,hinting and the girl's maidenhead. Of course there is the real danger of losing her head and her life,but not long later she will be lying on her bed with a man who will be poising his dagger at her throat in an obvios parallel to a man poising his manhood at a woman's sex.
Of course I'm not saying threatening a woman with a dagger is sexy,it is NOT SEXY in real life,but in the text the meaning is different because the scene is a method the writher uses to offer us a hidden erotic moment. This has been done in literature before.The problem is that sometimes people don't realise they can't compare literature with real life because they have different rules. I mean,this dagger is there as a symbolic element,nothing else. Clegane is incredibly strong and would never need a dagger to force himself on Sansa. The sole idea is ridiculous. Jon needed the dirk to capture Ygritte but Sandor didn't need a dagger in that room.
Anyway,the dagger scene is a symbolic deflowering as has been said many times before and it is even announced before it happens by the evil queen and her subliminal reference to the maidenhead which is in danger. Sandor is not a danger for her life but he is a very serious danger for her maidenhead. What happened between Jon and Ygritte is just another indicator of what is going to happen between Sansa and Sandor.
As you said there is a song for both couples too,the song of Bael the Bard for Jon and Ygritte and there's a song for Sansa and sandor too but it is not so clear which, I mean,the first and most obvious choice would be Florian and Jonquil,but when the time comes and she sings for him,she sings the song of the Mother. Then,there is the Bear and the Maiden Fair as a recurrent song that accompanies Sansa and is sung when she is with the Tyrell women.
The song of Bael the Bard is a sad song with a tragic ending,and the wildling in the story dies,like Ygritte dies because of this forbidden love. What will become of Sandor and Sansa? Does anybody know how Florian and Jonquil ends, if it is just platonic or if they really become lovers,if they have a happy ending? Sansa didn't sing that song though,when she offered it he rejected it and when he asked for it,she was unable to sing that and sung the Mother's song instead.
Why do you think this happened? Why did he reject Florian and Jonquil when she offered it? Why did he ask for it during the BoBW? What does it mean for Sansa to sing the Mother's song and for him to accept it and leave in tears? Why three songs for them and it is not still clear which one is theirs? Perhaps because the ending is still open for this two and we still have to learn which their song is?
We have already seen two couples with the same hair colouring making love (Ned&Cat and Jon&Ygritte).In both cases the woman seems more passionate than the man,but in Sansa's case it may be different because Sandor Clegane not only brings new "sap" to the Stark bloodline,but he is also very passionate. Wait, it has just ocurred to me that the only difference is that Sandor is a male but the rest is the same:the passion,the FIRE comes from the outlander,the stranger to the north. The Starks are like winter and passion comes from the other memeber of the couple,or so it seems in the scenes. I have no doubt we will have another scene where Sandor and Sansa will be the lovers. In fact,we have already witnessed a symbolic one,but I think there will be a real one for us to read.
Something else yet, the FIRE, in the three couples,the stranger brings the fire,both Ygritte and Cat have red hair,they are kissed by fire. Sandor is also "kissed" by fire, in a horrible way,I know,but he is, and his cheek and half his face bear the mark of fire. Perhaps in the other two couples one of the members was less passionate than the other (Jon and Ned,probably because they swore something,I mean Jon swore loyalty to the NW and Ned swore/promised Lyanna to protect her son),but not in Sansa's case if her hair is an indicator. Sansa is kissed by fire and her partner is also kissed by fire, so this union will be the most passionate of the three.
Don't forget that Sandor never accepted to take any vows,but he did offer to do that to Sansa. The man who has never taken any vows is willing to take vows for Sansa and I bet they will be marital vows,not chivalry ones as many readers tend to think.
. He also said this to her,which sounds so much like a promise/vow:
The Hound in him has already died and in a way, Sandor shed his hound persona for Sansa. At first I thought he would literaly die for her but after the QI part,we know the Hound is already dead while Sandor is still alive. As for his loyalty to her he has proved that several times already. He never lies to her,not even when the truth hurts,but he does lie for her,to protect her (remember Dontos).
He also promised to look her straight in the face. This makes me think of a man looking at a woman on equal terms and it is quite surprising for Clegane to speak to Sansa like that when she is high born and he is so far below her as lesser nobility. Have you ever wondered why? Sandor knows his place,remember how he behaves when at court or when Joff is present. The familiarity he treats Sansa with is striking,it's so weird. It only make sense because she is going to be his partner,on equal terms and not above him. He is not going to be only her sworn shield as some think but her equal. This seems to indicate he will not only become her lover but her husband. I may be wrong,but I think the hints point in this direction.
And what about this:
Doesn't this remind you of this?:
He is the bear in the song,it's him and no one else. I know the song may be applied to other couples,but none of the others fulfills all the conditions to be the couple in the song. This is the bear,his eyes may be like a dog's but he is the bear for the maiden fair,who is Sansa.
You have pointed out how Cersei touches her hair,well, Margaery Tyrell also touches her hair while the Bear and the Maiden Fair is sung by the fool. She touches her hair while Butterbumps says this:
They are telling the reader,loud and clear that Sansa is the maiden fair,it's sublte,but once you see it it becomes crystal clear.
When Sandor gets to know Sansa married the imp, the Tickler says she is sweet as honey while Sandor adds she is corteous.
The Tickler smacks his lips in an obvious reference to,ehem, tasting a woman's honey,so to speak. And what about this guys name? He is called the Tickler because he tortures people,but if you think of a man tasting a woman's honey,the word tickler takes a new meaning.
And the Hound (the Bear) agreed that she was sweet.He agreed because he is attracted to her sexually,but also added that she was corteous and a proper lady,because he wants the whole pack.The Hound,Sandor,is in love with that girl. It can be said louder but not clearer,I think.
It isn't said louder, so to speak,or in a more obvious way because this is meant to be sublte,this is a romance that has evolved very slowly and gradually along several books,from the first and will probably come to fruition in the last. That's why I think it is the ROMANCE in the series,because of the way it is unravelling,so subtly and gradually until it blooms like a flower would when spring finally comes.
It feels right,it goes well with the title of the last book and this idea of renewal after the cold winter we think is hinted at in the novels.
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Feb 16, 2015 1:31:24 GMT
Post by sillierthings on Feb 16, 2015 1:31:24 GMT
This is a bit of an aside, but the Tickler as a name, does seem to be sexual in this instance. In fact, maybe I have just a dirty mind, but the names Martin gives, particularly minor characters, are often names that could be seen as sexual:
Petyr Littlefinger Hot Pie Nimble Dick Shagwell The Tickler (and there is/was a kind of condom called the French Tickler--"for her pleasure". It's an old term. I don't know if it's common anymore)
And beyond just being funny (which I think a man who names characters after The Three Stooges, does have sense of humor), is there more to it than that?
Does it have anything to do with the theme you mention? Or is he just making jokes?
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maidenpools
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Feb 16, 2015 4:32:33 GMT
Post by maidenpools on Feb 16, 2015 4:32:33 GMT
I think most of those are meant to have sexual connotations - connotations which in some cases are meant to be disquieting and creepy, like "the tickler." And wrt Littlefinger, it's a debasing nickname that was given to him by his love rival many years ago that stuck, and I think at least one character commented on its double entendre. Names, nicknames, and identity are very important and are linked very tightly in this story, so it's great to analyze them like this!
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