maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 26, 2015 23:56:58 GMT
We know for a fact that all the Stark children are wargs/skinchangers, because GRRM himself said so. www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/2460/I'm curious what you all think of the significance of the death of Lady, as well as Sansa's warg potential. Personally, the death of Lady, to me, symbolized the fact that Sansa's fate would be separated from that of her family's and her Stark identity would be forcibly taken from her, at least for a long time. Ned Stark later thinks about how he should never have killed Lady because she was a gift from the gods and he'd been foolish not to think so (this happens when he hears how Summer protected Bran and Catelyn). I think that the direwolves being united with the Stark children (a very powerful scene, and the first that GRRM thought of when writing the series) will be tied to the return of magic, and therefore of great plot significance, ultimately. Given all the bird symbolism in Sansa's narrative, I think it'd be awesome if she skinchanged with a bird - there are many falcons in the Eyrie, and perhaps a bit of foreshadowing: "A falcon soared above the frozen waterfall, blue wings spread wide against the morning sky. Would that I had wings as well." Here are some good analyses of Sansa's potential in this respect: camii23.tumblr.com/post/28381497082/sansa-and-wargingnncharlesz.tumblr.com/post/64123073337/little-bird-winged-imagery-and-sansa-starknobodysuspectsthebutterfly.tumblr.com/post/73506159701/i-know-that-a-lot-of-sansa-fans-believe-that-sansaI've seen some comments to the affect of "but Sansa doesn't care for magic" which I first was inclined to think were potentially true, but I was uncertain, as I could find no indication in the text either way that she was or was not, until I came upon this passage from one of Jon's chapters in ACOK: "The pale pink light of dawn sparkled on branch and leaf and stone. Every blade of grass was carved from emerald, every drip of water turned to diamond. Flowers and mushrooms alike wore coats of glass. Even the mud puddles had a bright brown sheen. Through the shimmering greenery, the black tents of his brothers were encased in a fine glaze of ice. So there is magic beyond the Wall after all. He found himself thinking of his sisters, perhaps because he’d dreamed of them last night. Sansa would call this an enchantment, and tears would fill her eyes at the wonder of it, but Arya would run out laughing and shouting, wanting to touch it all." I think it's safe to say that Sansa would most definitely be intrigued by such an ability, though she'd discover it unconsciously, like Arya is doing with Nymeria even though they are separated. |
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Post by katie on Feb 27, 2015 0:22:57 GMT
It's hard to say if Sansa will ever fully be able to warg or skinchange at all, at least for now. Since her wolf died so early, Sansa has not been able to develop her "gifts" as keenly or quickly as her siblings. But I definitely think she has SOME sort of power, even if it's just an acute sense of intuition. I think the "UnKiss" was a hint of this. Sansa is definitely inclined toward magic. I think if she knew this sort of thing was even possible, she'd embrace it wholeheartedly, like Bran and Arya (as opposed to Jon and Robb, who are/were oddly reluctant about it). But since she has no wolf nor any siblings around to clue her in on this phenomenon, she's going to have to just figure it out on her own. Or some maegi is gonna have to come along and tell her, LOL.
And if we're going to believe that Sandor is her "Lady replacement", then that makes their reunion ever the more crucial.
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 27, 2015 2:46:52 GMT
I definitely think Sandor helped her get back some of her intuition and have little doubt that their character arcs are inextricably intertwined. All the "get her a dog, she'll be happier for it" stuff couldn't be more obvious.
I'm guessing if we ever get to see her finding out about her abilities, it will be similar to the way Arya has found out about hers (as she did with the cats in Braavos) - piecemeal and subconsciously.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 27, 2015 14:25:36 GMT
One of the things that I find more difficult to grasp is how these warging abilities work. Ned doesn't have this ability as far as we know but his children have it. I guess at least some of their ancestors were wargs because there are direwolves at their feet in the statues in the crypts. If this is the case,why wasn't Eddard a warg,perhaps because direwolves hadn't been seen for so many years. Perhaps the direwolves and the warging capacity are linked for the Starks.
What will happen to Sansa then,as she doesn't have her direwolf. I also wonder what happens to a direwolf in their master or mistress dies. Jon may have died, so what will happen to Ghost? As we have seen Sansa hasn't died so far and her direwolf was killed so surviving without their direwolves is possible for a Stark warg.
Another question is what will happen to Sansa now that she doesn't have lady. She hasn't died but will she be able to warg, is she doomed after losing lady?
There are indicators that Sandor is lady's replacemet but I can't see what this means.I don't believe she can warg him ,so why is he lady's replacement? Lady was linked to Sansa in an extemely powerful way,as if she was a part of her. Does this mean Sansa's union is or will be so powerful that he will be like a part of her in some way? What does this mean?
Lady was very much like her mistress, like her avatar or something as they were so alike.On the other hand,Sandor has things in common with Sansa but it is obvious that there are many differences between them too.That is why I don't know what Martin is hinting at with this idea of the replacement. Does it mean they will be linked as tightly as Lady and Sansa?
I have read many ideas here and there but I still have many doubts about this and questions without clear answers.
1. Can the direwolves live without their masters?
2. Why did they direwolves disappear for so many years but there is one for every Stark child?
3. What will happen to Jon and Ghost?
4. Is Sandor capable of feeling danger and lies like the direwolves do? I so, why?
5. Why does Sansa think Sandor is Lady when he is waiting for her in her room? What does she feel? A sort or weird connection symilar to what she felt when Lady was with her?
6. Is Sandor Lady's replacement in the sense that he can make Sansa feel whole again, as if he could complete her in some way? I say this because Lady was like a part of Sansa or a mirror image or her.
There are so many questions as regards wargs and specially Sansa and Lady!
What do you think?
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Post by katie on Feb 27, 2015 16:29:30 GMT
All very valid points and questions, and you're right, it's sooo open-ended right now!
1. I would think so, just as the humans can live without their wolves.
2. I feel like this might have something to do with Bloodraven... not sure what, but I sense magic involved here.
3. I'm of the opinion that Jon dies but Melisandre resurrects him à la Beric and Cat. And that makes me think that his bond with Ghost might be broken at that point. :-(
4. Well, we definitely know Sandor can "smell lies". I think he can sense danger too. He seems very good at sizing up people and situations and navigating them appropriately. It's a minor example, but look at how easily he's able to perceive and diffuse escalating situations between Sansa and Joffrey (stopping her from pushing him off the battlements, interrupting their back-and-forth about Tommen at the Name Day Tourney, etc.). He may not be a wolf, but he is a dog; as he says to Arya, "your brothers and mine". They are in the same family, so to speak.
5. And also, when she wakes up from her dream on the Fingers, the old blind dog is laying next to her and she says "I wish you were Lady." Definite Sandor-Lady link. But as you say, we have yet to see what this actually means.
6. Possibly! Or maybe his presence simply heightens her senses and intuition.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 27, 2015 17:47:01 GMT
Yes, they are in the same family but she is not a wolf but a direwolf? Does this mean he is more than a dog like she is more than a wolf? I had never thought of this possibility but there may be something extraordinary in Sandor's bond with dogs. His house connection to dogs is unusually strong perhaps. Maybe the episode where his grandfather and the three dogs saved Tytos Lannister from the lioness was not only a heroic act but something with further implications. Not all dogs can smell lies and neither can all wolves but Lady could and so can Sandor.
Sandor feels very proud of his house's sigyl and the action that it represents. Maybe he is special too,like Sansa herself and his the way he interacts with dogs, and perhaps other animals is more intense and powerful than normal people's.
I have always thought that Sansa can feel Sandor, that she can touch his soul and understand him like nobody else can but that this is just human empathy and she never warged him-I hate the idea of a Stark warging someone else,especially someone they are friendly with since it seems a very nasty thing to do- but there is a very powerful bond between them. During the BoBW scene in her bedroom she touched his cheek out of instinct and she touched him in the right moment,she found tears on his face and he had calmed down by then. Is Sansa's ability a stronger than normal capacity for empathy or is she a typical warg like her siblings? I would prefer her bond with Sandor to be just human and IMO magic would make it less compelling.
I also noticed that many of Robert words turned out to be prophetic,I noticed it several times in his Eddard's chapter in AGoT, so his sentence saying " get her a dog,she will be happier for it" maybe a hint left by Martin on a random character's lips or it may be more. Perhaps there is some magic component in Sansa and Sandors bond. But if this bond is somewhat magical, why is it so? What is special about Sandor because she doesn't have this bond with anybody else but Lady?
When she says at the Fingers I wish it was Lady, does she mean her dead direwolf or is she missing Sandor? Because she took Lothor for him and so on.
Sansa-Lady-Sandor. This is a chain I don't understand very well. It is a mess for me and I don't know why she takes Sandor for Lady when he was in her room and why she says that to the old dog. I can't see how a man can be a direwolve's replacement. In fact I don't like the idea much. It doesn't make much sense to me, probably because I don't know what it really means and what it entails for Sansa and Sandor.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 27, 2015 18:10:37 GMT
This makes me think that the direwolves connection with the Starks is much older than Blackraven and that it started before the Targaryens came to Westeros from across the sea. Those stone direwolves make me think those Starks were wargs as there's no mention of direwolves on Brandon,Lyanna and Rickard's tombs. For some reason the Starks lost their direwolves for a couple of generations at least and perhaps that is why they lost their power and had to bend the knee. Maybe it is the other way round and they lost their direwolves when they bent the knee. It's true that Rob died and perhaps Jon too in spite of having direwolves but their reckless decisions lead them to disaster and probably in the end the Starks will recover their importance.
Other thing I don't get is Bloodraven's relation to sacred trees and his connection with Bran, who is a Stark whereas he is a Targaryen. Does he have Stark blood or something? Because I don't remember who his ancestors were.
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 27, 2015 18:32:26 GMT
I think that there was a symbolic element to it - when Lady died, Sansa was taken from her family, her instincts, her connection to the North. Notice that it's never good when Summer or Bran are in cages, and Arya loses a great deal of her identity as well, being separated from Nymeria. Sandor becomes her protector and allows her to get in touch with her intuition again - "They're all liars here. And every one of them better than you." I don't think any magic is involved in their connection, however - just symbolic coincidence, or perhaps fate. But no magic.
When she's missing Lady, she's missing the connection they shared as fellow beings as well as something deeper and more spiritual that ties her to the North and her family and the wild ways of the world. We see her possibly forming such a connection anew, if only momentarily, with the old dog in the Eyrie. Skinchanging/warging is something that comes naturally to the Stark children such that they do it without realizing it, so I'm hoping we get to see Sansa do it with a falcon of the Eyrie or something, since her connection to birds is explicit and frequent, and she even wishes she could fly like the falcons of the Vale.
I think Lady's death represents a long separation from everything that makes Sansa a Stark - "They have made me a Lannister." And now she is Alayne - she will have to forge a new identity for herself, even as she preserves the memory of Winterfell in snow castles and in her heart.
GRRM said that the Stark skinchanging abilities aren't genetic, so I think they're connected to the return of magic as a special omen of some sort.
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Post by katie on Feb 27, 2015 22:16:28 GMT
Yes indeed, it's a woefully underdeveloped theme, but it is THERE; we'll just have to wait and see its full implications later I guess. (If we do at all; this may very well be something GRRM leaves directly unaddressed.) There could indeed be something to be said for Sandor's unusual connection to dogs in the same way the Stark kids are unusually connected to their wolves. I DEFINITELY think there is something to be said about the fact that House Clegane came into existence because a pack of DOGS killed a LIONESS. Is this perhaps foreshadowing Cersei's fall to one or both of the Clegane brothers? Hmmm... It's interesting because UnGregor is her Champion right now... I'm not a proponent of either "Cleganebowl" or "Sandor = Valonqar", but it does make one wonder... As for Sansa warging humans, I know a lot of people have a problem with that, and I totally understand why, but I dunno if I would call the connection she has with Sandor "warging" per se... Like you said, she can just SENSE him so well; even after the BoBW, it didn't take her long to completely work out what his intentions had been and WHY he had behaved the way he had. Somehow she just knew that he had intended to take her away with him (even though he never expressly said so), and she knew that it was the wildfire driving him crazy. A lesser person would have just been completely freaked out and traumatized by the whole thing, but Sansa actually took the time to see it from his POV... So yeah, maybe she CAN "warg" him in the sense that she can "see" things from his perspective. I dunno. They definitely have a psychic connection, which I've mused about here --> katemarzullo.tumblr.com/post/107610685546/reading-this-great-and-thought-provoking-meta-byI'd be afraid for Sansa warging a falcon or something just because her abilities ARE so underdeveloped, I feel like the poor bird would immediately crash to the ground! :-P |
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 27, 2015 23:47:12 GMT
In fact I am not a fan of the warging idea and what I like best about this books is the human part of the story. I think Sansa and Sandor's connection is more compelling because it seems natural, something that has nothing to do with magic.What they feel for each other is much more interesting and compelling if they are just two people who have started to fall in love,that is like a miracle,especially under the circumstances,so I don't think other elements add to the charm of their story,I would say it is just the opposite.
Probably this warging quality hasn't been clearly treated in the story so far,and it isn't clear what it is about or how it affects Sansa and her understanding of Sandor. I prefer to think this connection si beteen them alone and not an ability she has to feel everybody's feelings and intentions. She should have understood what Cersei and Joff were like but she was deceived by them. If she had a special ability for understanding people she would have noticed they were evil and had bad intentions.
Perhaps Sansa will warg a bird or something but I think that her ability to read Sandor like an open book is given by a different kind of magic, it is just love or the beginnig of a very special love story. At least I would like it to be just that.
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 28, 2015 0:46:09 GMT
Yes, I never thought their connection was magical, only symbolic - note that I didn't even mention Sandor in the OP, because I was focusing specifically on Sansa's relationship with Lady.
I think Sansa's empathy allows her to sense the good in people, Sandor included, but she still has trouble sensing the bad - but Sandor, among other things, has helped her to improve her intuition in that regard. Her connection to him is a result of her deep empathy, and not magical ability.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 28, 2015 0:54:38 GMT
So you don't think it is magical either. I am not sure if we are right but I think it works better if it isn't magical, it really seems more powerful if it is a human connection of two souls. Don't you think?
Yes, I know you mentioned Sansa and Lady but Sandor is supposed to be her replacement, that's why I wondered what this implies and if it was something magical, like Sansa and lady's connection.
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Post by katie on Feb 28, 2015 1:00:08 GMT
I get what y'all are saying, but I don't think Sansa having an ability negates the "specialness" of her relationship with Sandor. On the contrary, I think it enhances it! And it's not just about her either... I think maybe I might have made it seem like Sansa is some sort of magical siren calling Sandor to her, LOL; no, I don't think that is the case at all, I think he brings something to their connection too, and I think it might have something to do with the Lady parallels, but it's hard to speculate on that at the moment, as we've been saying. I do think Sansa has this ability to tap into other people's perceptions/motives if she wanted to... That is what makes Sandor different. She WANTS to know more about him and see things from his point of view. HE's the one that sticks with her the most after their separation. She thinks about Sandor more than she does about Arya! She doesn't really express this sort of interest in anyone else. There IS magic in their bond, though not necessarily in a literal sense. But maybe it is that too! It's just really hard to tell at this point until we get the full picture from GRRM (*looks at calendar and sighs*)... As for seeing Cersei and Joffrey for who they really are, I think she DID; the problem was, she WOULDN'T. She wanted so badly for them to be the Perfect Queen and Perfect Prince that she was basically in denial for a hot minute until she just couldn't deny it any longer. That was her first real lesson in trusting her instincts, and she paid for it dearly, so she's not quite so quick to trust people anymore. And yet she STILL remains kind, compassionate, and gives people the benefit of the doubt. Which is what makes her so amazing.  |
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 28, 2015 4:07:59 GMT
As for seeing Cersei and Joffrey for who they really are, I think she DID; the problem was, she WOULDN'T. She wanted so badly for them to be the Perfect Queen and Perfect Prince that she was basically in denial for a hot minute until she just couldn't deny it any longer. That was her first real lesson in trusting her instincts, and she paid for it dearly, so she's not quite so quick to trust people anymore. And yet she STILL remains kind, compassionate, and gives people the benefit of the doubt. Which is what makes her so amazing. Yes, she was 11 years old after all! It's always so strange to me when people hate her for it. The society she lives in has raised her to idealize such people and she thinks that to do so is only right and is what she's supposed to do to live a full life. So she goes against her instincts to trust them, just as Ned ignores his own instincts by betrothing her to Joffrey and killing Lady. And yet she is instinctually drawn to Sandor...and this time, she doesn't ignore her instincts. She trusts her empathy this time. |
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Post by katie on Feb 28, 2015 4:10:52 GMT
Hahaha, okay, I literally just saw a dog food commercial on TV that was talking about how wolves are the natural ancestors of dogs and how they share the same instincts. Interesting, thanks for throwing into the convo, random dog food commercial!  |
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