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Post by katie on Mar 21, 2015 19:01:35 GMT
I posted this on Tumblr, but I was curious to hear if any y'all had thoughts on it, so I'm cut-and-pasting it here too....
So, we all know that GRRM has stated that the UnKiss is “important” and will eventually “mean something”, which always struck me as such an odd thing to say because, like, doesn’t it ALREADY mean something by merely EXISTING?? I’ve said before and will say again, I have a really hard time believing that Sansa would have invented (and continue to fantasize about) a kiss that she didn’t want in the first place.
So, then, what happens next? I’ve long supposed that the “importance” of the UnKiss will come into play when Sansa and Sandor inevitably reunite, that it will “embolden” Sansa in her interactions with him — if she already believes they shared such an intimate experience, then surely she’d have little to fear from, say, a sober do-over. ;-)
But that’s where it gets weird for me. I’m really uncomfortable with the idea of Sansa and Sandor coming together again with her harboring this delusion about him in her head, when their entire relationship has been built on authenticity and honesty. I have a hard time seeing them moving forward with this imagined encounter hanging over their head. They’ve already had so many ACTUAL intimate (though platonic) encounters together, the UnKiss hardly seems necessary anyway, you know? And if it should happen to be brought up in conversation (it would have to, wouldn’t it?), I would hate for Sandor to be the one to have to tell her, sorry kiddo, never happened. How humiliating for poor Sansa! Besides, as much as Sandor would probably keel over from shock and awe if he knew Sansa was fantasizing about him so much, I honestly think he would find the mis-memory somewhat disturbing (much the same way I think Sansa would be disturbed if she knew Sandor was bragging to Arya about the song she sang to him). And given the circumstances, the fact that he DID seem to clearly WANT to kiss her but then thought he was being rejected, leading to him doing something incredibly cruel to Sansa, for which he feels immense guilt, and then later finding out that she actually DID want the kiss after all?? What a kick in the proverbial (blue) balls that would be!!!
Now, there’s some compelling evidence and speculation that, in TWoW, Sansa will finally become conscious of and acknowledge these long slow-burning feelings for Sandor. Obviously, I think the UnKiss will play a big part in this. And I got to thinking, what if her realization of her feelings runs concurrent with her realization that the kiss never happened? What if she actually NEEDS to openly acknowledge her feelings for him in order to be “free” of this delusion? She’s going to have to eventually know that the kiss that night never happened, right? And I think this would be the best-case scenario for that epiphany occurring — that she would come to that conclusion on her own. That she would realize, as we all did long ago, that “OH! I wouldn’t have made that up at all if I didn’t have these latent feelings for him!” Not sure which would come first, but I kind of feel like they would happen simultaneously?
Not sure if I’m making sense at all here, but suffice it to say, I’m now thinking that the UnKiss is just an avenue not just for the reader but for Sansa herself to become aware of her feelings for Sandor. And once she does, the UnKiss will no longer be necessary, because she’ll have something deeper and more meaningful (and more REAL) to hold on to. Until they shall meet again. ;-)
So, what do you guys think? What do you think the "importance" of the UnKiss is that GRRM referred to?
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 22, 2015 15:33:11 GMT
This is a likely hypothesis! I like this because through ASOS and AFFC, when Sansa is starting to realize that Sandor loved her or at least wanted her. She lies awake at night and reflects that she understood why his reactions during the BoBW. She thinks that maybe she should have gone with him. She dreams about him in her bed, and thanks to Marillion, she realizes that song Sandor wanted may have been innuendo for something else. She realizes that Lothor likes Mya and actively supports the relationship. She talks to Randa about Mya and Lothor who lets her know exactly what men like to see their women in, nothing at all. Even though Sansa's narrative rarely has her analyzing her interactions with Sandor directly, I think it's safe to say that she's finally realized that The Hound wanted her. For the Unkiss to be Sansa's realization that she wants Sandor would be nice balance to this as she gains clarity about her own desires. I can't help but think that Randy Randa and her free and open talk about sex will have Sansa considering what she wants--especially after she learns that Petyr has betrothed her to Harry. That little mournful thought of hers--no one will marry me for love. However, she's just now putting it together that The Hound probably did love her. If she realizes that she made up the Unkiss and has the self awareness to realize that it means she also wants him, I could see this being not just the first step to a real and lasting love with the Hound, but also, it could be the thing that makes her strong enough to fight against Petyr and his plots. There is plenty of evidence in the text that when Sansa wants something, she goes for it. She wanted to marry Joffrey and defied her father to tell Cersei and ask for help (I'm not blaming her--she did not know what was going on). She got out of King's Landing with Dontos' help--that took a great deal of bravery to sneak into the godswood and conspire like that. It did not work out the way she planned, but she got out. Point being, yes, Sansa's been in a world of pain, even with these decisions, but when the girl decides she's going after something she wants, she goes after it. I can't wait to see what she does if she decides she wants Sandor Clegane  . |
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Post by katie on Mar 22, 2015 20:28:44 GMT
You bring up a good point -- that it's just as important for Sansa to realize and acknowledge Sandor's feelings for her as it for her to realize and acknowledge her feelings for him. I mean, I think she already does realize how he feels about her, at least subconsciously; I think this is partly where the UnKiss springs from too. But I think it probably seems like such a ludicrous idea to her that she can't quite bring herself to accept it.
I have some personal experience with this myself, LOL. In regards to my first luuuv that I referred to before (the one who looked like Sean Bean), I went through a lot of inner turmoil with him because I could not reconcile his words and his actions; I couldn't figure out what he wanted from me. It wasn't until someone suggested to me that he LOVED me that everything all of a sudden MADE PERFECT SENSE. But it was such a crazy idea that it never even crossed my mind! But once I finally allowed "love" to be brought into the picture, EVERYTHING fell into place! I feel like this could also be the case for Sansa. I don't think it would even occur to her in a million years that Sandor Clegane would or could LOVE her. Or she him. But I think once she lets that in, the whole picture will become crystal clear to her.
(Incidentally, it makes me wonder about Elder Bro's assertion that Sandor never loved and never was loved himself. We can all agree that Sandor told EB allllll about Sansa when taking his confession; EB could not have been so oblivious as to not discern Sandor's feelings for her. So, when he said this, did he really believe that? Or was it just part of his plan to throw Brienne off the scent?)
Weeeee! Yes, many people have meta'd that the UnKiss is Sansa's "psychological barrier" to protect herself from LF, but isn't Sandor himself the "psychological barrier"?? Kiss or no kiss, the fact of the matter is, Sandor is much on her mind and seems to be even moreso once she's in LF's "possession" (for lack of a better word). There was no kiss when he climbed into her marriage bed in her dream...
Thing is, though, where would she even start? She has no idea where he is, and he has no idea where she is. They could be dead for all the other knows, though there's no indication that either believes that the other isn't alive. So, once Sansa has her little epiphany.... Great, but now what?? She's in love with a man she hasn't seen or heard from in almost a year...
This could be where the whole mess with Saltpans comes in. Surely news of that will get to Sansa eventually -- how will she react? Will she immediately know he's innocent and try to clear his name? Will she want to get to him somehow and learn the truth for herself? I've said before that I believe their reunion will occur because she will go to him this time, whether deliberately or not...
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 22, 2015 21:16:12 GMT
I think the Unkiss is probably Martin's way to show the readers that Sansa wants the Hound. The first time se mentions this "kiss", she is with Margaery, her gradma and all those girls. Her thinking that she had kissed the Hound made me open my eyes wide,as if they were saucers. Gosh! What the hell is that! I went back to the original scene and reread it to check there wasn't a kiss there. No kiss, but if she thought about it then she wanted that kiss, she liked the man more than I ever dared to imagine. I thought his feelings were unrequited and he was in for another bitter disappointment and a broken heart if they ever met again. But this Unkiss gave me hope, because the little lady liked the Hound and wanted his kiss. I still think it is a means to show she has feelings for him but I don't know if there's more to it than that. It may become the reason why she approaches him in a bolder manner,thinking that they've already shared that moment and that he wants her. I agree with you, Katie, that she will probably be the one to approach her that way as he won't dare. He feels so guilt ridden, so unworthy and that his hands are son dirty he won't dare ask for a song again, or will he?  They have made him feel such a sinner when he already had a very low opinion of himself that she will have to be the one to make the first move when they meet again. I may be wrong but I have this feeling too. |
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 22, 2015 22:16:45 GMT
Well, GRRM will have to set it up so she can be with him again, of course, but once she does have interaction with him again (and he must!), I agree with both of you that she will be the aggressor. If she knows that he wants her (she does) and if she wants him, what's to stop her? I know I have to be patient, but it really is driving me crazy thinking of ways that Sansa and Sandor could meet up again. I kind of want her to end up on the Quiet Isle rather than have him show up in the Vale, but I just don't see how it could be accomplished. Septon Meribald is wandering around somewhere--we haven't heard from him since Brienne was attacked, right? He is a well of information, especially since he must have heard Sandor's confession before he took off with Brienne, right?
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Post by katie on Mar 22, 2015 23:00:23 GMT
I think I've brought this up before, but...
I have a feeling Septon Meribald will abandon his usual route through the Riverlands, what with the BwB fucking things up, not to mention all the Freys and Lannisters crawling everywhere, and will instead turn his attentions north to the Vale, which is as yet untouched by the war. There he will come across LF and his retinue at the Gates of the Moon and befriend LF's charming bastard daughter Alayne Stone... Sansa has always been predisposed toward the Faith, so she will likely find Meribald's company most welcome. As you say, Meribald is a font of info, and Alayne/Sansa will hear him tell LF about the buggery that went down at Saltpans at the hands of the Hound. Around this same time, the effects of all that dreamwine that LF & Alayne have been pumping into Sweetrobin finally catch up with him and he takes a turn for the worst. Luckily, Meribald knows a guy... I think we all know where this is going, LOL.
That seems a most logical if not obvious scenario, especially considering all those convenient hints in the QI chapter about noble women being allowed to stay in certain cabins shaped like beehives and whatnot... but GRRM doesn't like to be obvious, so who knows.
But yes, what we can all be certain of is that Sansa will have to be the one to convince Sandor.
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 22, 2015 23:59:49 GMT
How hard do you think it would be to break his resolve to stay celibate, LOL? If he really wants to become a monk, which I doubt.
It would be fun to see him reluctant to her adavances,but he shouldn't make it too difficult for her because she is inexperienced and quite innocent even at this point. She could lose her self-confidence.
I agree that idea Katie suggest could work fine and it seens quite logical. Why are those bee-huts even mentioned? There must be a reason and the fact that they make one think of honey is really appropriate for SanSan.
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Post by katie on Mar 23, 2015 0:38:24 GMT
It's not really made clear in the books to what extent novices take vows, except that EB mentions that new recruits have to take a 10-year vow of silence -- yikes! -- but he also mentions that they can break their silence when confessing. Woo-hoo, loophole! LOL
Besides, I think if it came down to it, Sandor would choose his vows to Sansa over his vows to EB. ;-)
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 23, 2015 16:21:45 GMT
I have real doubt that Sandor has taken any kind of binding vows on Quiet Isle. I don't really understand the the process of being a novice, but I though the idea is that if you are a novice, you are not really bound to the faith--it's your trial period. At least so all those miniseries I watched as a teenager about nuns in Australia and the Thorn Birds led me to believe . It's a major plot point that Sandor has been part of at least TWO celibate brotherhoods and still managed to not say vows. I'm in the camp that when he does say a binding vow, it will be to Sansa. And Sandor's house colors are black and yellow--a little striped bee, makin' some honey, in beehive, with the little bird. Birds and Bees and honey. Jeez, will the next book just come out already? |
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Post by katie on Mar 23, 2015 16:42:00 GMT
Good point, Sandor isn't really all that keen on making vows, is he? Even though he does seem to at least acknowledge the vows a Kingsguard is bound by ("I have no lands or wife to forsake, and who would care if I did?"). So, it seems like a knight's vows are separate from a KG's vows, and it's the former that Sandor seems to have the bigger issue with. As it is, the only vows we've seen Sandor speak have been to Sansa -- "A hound will die for you but never lie to you" and "I could keep you safe... No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." BTW, I thought of another Rule of Threes thing in regards to SanSan -- Sandor has knelt before Sansa twice so far. The first time, when he's telling her the story of his burns, and again when he's wiping the blood off of her lip. Will there be a third time? A proposal mayhaps??  |
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 24, 2015 0:04:15 GMT
In fact I was just being naughty when I said I'd like to know how long he would resist temptation,LOL. Just my naughty self trying to imagine him in that situation, fighting his instinct and his desire,and all that passion he keeps inside because this is what he thinks he must do. I don't think he could resist for long, if he did try to resist he would only do that for her sake, because he thought it was wrong for her.
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Post by katie on Mar 24, 2015 0:20:28 GMT
Yeah, if he resists TOO much, I think it would turn Sansa off. Remember, one of the things she loves about him most is his fierceness; if he loses that, he loses her I think. So, he can play the gallant a little bit just to make absolutely sure that she is ready and that she REALLY does want HIM, and then after that, he will have to give in. ;-)
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 24, 2015 0:31:53 GMT
Oh, yeah, I agree. He can't make it too difficult for her, poor thing!
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