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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 28, 2015 15:21:00 GMT
We have been talking about this before,why did George insist on casting someone as old as Rory to play Sandor if Sansa was so young? This would make it difficult for the audience to accept a romance between the two characters they play, did they cast Rory and Sophie because their characters will never have a romance? If this is the right interpretation, is this true only for the show or also for the books? I've been thinking about this and not for the first time and then I remembered that George said he would have liked to have Ron Pearlman play Sandor. Ron played Vincent, the Beast, in the tv show Beauty and the Beast and he would have been really old and quite plain if he played Sandor. Martin still had him as a romantic interest for pretty Linda Hamilton and Ron was disguised as a sort of lion to make matters worse. Despite everything it worked, so perhaps George thought it didn't matter that Rory was too old for the part. He still thought the romance could work on sceen. He is also quite old now and perhaps he doens't see Rory as too old because the older you get the less concerned you are about age gaps and things like that. Perhaps he doesn't see Rory as too old por the part whereas many show watchers see it this way. What I mean, is that this casting choice doesn't prove SanSan isn't going to happen or that they had already decided not to have it in the show when they cast Rory and Sophie. The problem may have appeared later and it doesn't make sense to me to do away with a romantic plot that exists in the books and many people like because they want people to watch the series and be successful. I guess they didn't know how to write and film Sansan becasue it is too subtle,unconventional and nuanced and they are all about stale tropes and obvious and predictable scenes. I think they tried but didn't know how to do it because they have failed with all the romantic stories in the show. Not even Dany&Drogo worked so well. They suck at romance and even sex scenes are bad in this show, IMO. I don't know if show watchers find the "sexy scenes" really sexy in this series because I don't, no even one of them. When I watched the series I kept rolling my eyes and waiting for those stupid scenes to end as soon as possible. That's how sexy I thought they were.  |
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Post by katie on Mar 28, 2015 16:08:12 GMT
Yes, I think you make fair points. I can offer a little insight here as a director in that the casting process can be a very tricky one. You can see a dozen people for the same role, and sometimes not a one of them fits the part 100%, so you end up going with your best option. GRRM has stated that, out of all the actors that read for Sandor, Rory actually got it right. He even moved George to tears at one point! So, maybe Rory WAS much older than GRRM or even D&D had hoped, but he nailed the role, and at the end of the day, that is what mattered most. Perhaps they figured they would just deal with the SanSan bridge once they got to it -- and then they never got to it. ;-P
When I was casting my short film, I wanted my leading lady to be of average size. I was determined not to cast a typically skinny girl; I wanted someone who looked REAL, because that was part of the character I had envisioned. However, the girl who ended up getting the role WAS typically skinny... but she nailed the character. Her expressions, her body language, the way she delivered the lines... I fell in love with her for this character, and she got the role because of that. I had to abandon some of my expectations; I couldn't pass her up when she embodied the character so thoroughly, despite her skinniness. So, I can kind of see where GRRM and D&D were coming from with this one. Sandor is a very nuanced character; it's so easy to interpret him very shallowly, so whatever Rory did must have really struck a cord with George. It's just a shame that Sandor DID end up being such a shallow caricature after all. :-(
I think SanSan was doomed from the beginning anyway, whether they had cast someone younger or not, because, as you point out, D&D don't know how the fuck to handle REAL nuanced emotions or romance. I never bought Dany/Drogo. Jon/Ygritte did nothing for me. And I couldn't care less about Robb/Talisa or Tyrion/Shae. The best romance on that show was Ned and Cat, as far as I am concerned. And maybe Stannis and Davos, heehee.
I think SanSan could have worked if they knew what they were doing. I saw some sparks there. Even from Sophie. The way she looked at him after she said "You won't hurt me" during the BoBW... The way they looked at each other... it was beautiful. That whole scene always felt like a BEGINNING rather than an ending, you know what I mean? So, I'm not 100% convinced Sandor won't return and there won't be some sort of resolution to their relationship on the show. By the time Season 6 rolls around, Sophie will be, what, 20? It will be difficult to impossible to look at her as Sansa and believe that she's only supposed to be 14 or 15 (it's hard to do even now), and Dany was only supposed to be 14 or 15 when she hooked up with Drogo. So, at that point, it might not matter. They can still have a romance without getting physical too. They'll probably make it one of those super-idealized look-but-can't-touch unconsummated affairs, or maybe even something more like Dany and Jorah (ugh).
Anyway, point being, I don't think Rory being cast as Sandor is a dealbreaker... I know it was for a lot of fans, but it's not for me and it might not be for D&D either.
I never saw the "Beauty & the Beast" TV show; they do end up in an actual relationship though, right? Did they ever show them being physically intimate? Or was that all off-screen?
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 28, 2015 17:44:45 GMT
Thank you for the insight into the casting process, Katie. It makes sense to me that he would want the actor who understood the nuances of the Hound. Also, do you think it's possible that they had not cast Sansa yet? So, not knowing how young the actress was going to be, maybe he did not even consider the age being a factor, especially since they aged up Dany. At any rate, Rory would have been in his mid to late 30s when he auditioned right? Not that much older than the Hound. Since they have no problem showing Petyr and Sansa kisses, I don't know why a romance between the Hound and Sansa would be off the table, especially since Sophie will be much older, but alas, I doubt D and D will present it in the way I want it shown  . Regarding Beauty and the Beast, oh, that was my SHOW in the 80s. I was such a sappy romantic. While the intimacy was off screen, I recently watched the series again on Netflix, and while the dialogue was subtle, as an adult there was no doubt that they were talking to each other about their new found physical relationship in a few scenes. In addition, there was the whole fact that Catherine got pregnant and gave birth to Vincent's son. No doubt about what was going on then. Early on in the series though, there was something referred to as the "Shadow Kiss," (sound familiar, eh?). Apparently, they shot two versions of a scene--one where Vincent and Catherine just embraced and stared lovingly at each other and then another scene where they kissed. What they eventually did was show the scene without the kiss but overlaid it with the kissing scene--so it appeared like it was happening in their hearts or imagination, but it did not physically happen---Or DID it? There was some debate I remember about how to read that scene. I think, knowing George's writing now, and thinking about the Unkiss, this "Shadow Kiss" showed that Vincent and Catherine's feelings were NOT just platonic, but they (and maybe the viewing audience) were not quite ready for the physical side...YET. Please, watch Beauty and the Beast. I swear, some of Catherine and Vincent's conversations were reworked into Sansa/Hound convos. They always meet at night, on her balcony, away from prying eyes. The leader of Vincent's community is called Father and much like the Elder Brother with Sandor, he protects Vincent--perhaps too much. Vincent starts to chafe, he wants to live, not just be holed up in their protected community. I definitely see proto-Sansan in Vincent and Catherine. Worth watching even if it is a bit cheesy. |
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Post by katie on Mar 28, 2015 19:55:03 GMT
So, GRRM made the announcement of Rory's casting in 2009, which would have made him 40 at the time. They started filming a year later, and the show premiered the following year. I'm assuming the kids were cast last in order to preserve their canon ages, but by the time they started filming, they were a little older, which could account for the "aging" up that happened -- it might not have been entirely intentional, LOL. That is what I am assuming. At any rate, they shot a pilot which they eventually scrapped and re-shot, but some footage from the first pilot remains in the finished product, and you can tell by (a) discrepancy in hair and costumes (i.e. Ned in the crypt scene and Sandor in the "it's not hunting if you pay for it" scene), and (b) how much younger the kids look (the feast scene).
Like I said in an earlier post, it seems like TV shows are more easily able to get away with that sort of thing if everyone agrees that the intimacy is "wrong" and non-consensual. If you had Sophie and Rory kissing at some point and actually ENJOYING it, it comes off as the show looking like it's "endorsing" a relationship between a 40-something man and a teenage girl. Which is obviously stupid and an awful double-standard, but I think D&D would prefer to play it safe than to receive angry letters from anti-sex trafficking foundations or whatever...
That's what I was thinking, which is why I asked if they ever showed them get busy on screen. Even though the audience is rooting for them as a couple, would they actually want to SEE them kiss (or more)? I feel like they wouldn't, because even though we're supposed to be rooting for Vincent, he's still "ugly" and we don't want to actually see him kissing Linda Hamilton, LOL. Which, again, is kind of awful. But I think the same thing could be said for Sandor on GoT; even though we might root for him, and might even root for him to receive Sansa's love, he's still "ugly" and way older than she is, so would the audience actually want to see them being physical? My guess is no. (Except me of course!! LOL) Same with Dany and Jorah too.
Haha, okay, I'll give it a shot. It's funny, even though I love the Beauty & the Beast Trope, I've never much cared for the actual B&tB story! Maybe it has something to do with him actively kidnapping her and stuff, LOL. Doesn't do it for me. I prefer it when the "beast" is this grumpy bloke who begrudgingly does nice things *occasionally*, and then a sweet woman comes along to act as his foil and inspires him to not just want to DO good things, he wants to actually BE good (or better). I think that's why I love Carson & Hughes on "DA" so much, heehee. At any rate, I never got into the "B&tB" show when it was on, and I think it was less because of Ron Perlman and more because I just don't buy Linda Hamilton as a romantic female lead. She just seems really... "mannish" to me. I remember seeing the trailers for the show as a kid, and when the title would come up, I would think, "Yeah, but which is which?" HA! Sorry, I was a mean child.... ;-P I shall add it to my Netflix queue, though, and give it another try, if for no other reason than to see those SanSan parallels you mentioned!
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Post by katie on Mar 28, 2015 20:18:51 GMT
eyesofmist, you mentioned that GRRM really wanted Ron Perlman to play Sandor. I find this very interesting, because more than a couple times while watching GoT, I thought that the Hound DID strike an uncanny resemblance with Ron Perlman!  Boom! LOL
Anyway, I was just thinking, maybe THAT was a big deciding factor for GRRM to cast Rory. Maybe he felt, out of all the readers, RMC came the closest to the younger Perlman derivative that he was looking for! |
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 28, 2015 21:23:05 GMT
Oh, yeah! Look at that! I think Eyesofmist mentioned that GRRM wanted Ron Perlman, but I had heard that, too. Ron Perlman does portray Vincent with such a gentle, poetic soul, and yet, he murders plenty of people in the series. His "animal" nature is something he's ever aware of, and even though it's frightening, he also uses it to save Catherine and his son--so there is the good side as well. Perlman strikes that balance well, and when you think that GRRM does see Ron Perlman as capable of playing the Hound, it makes me appreciate how much of a dreamer and a poet Sandor really is!
If they did play out the Sansan the same way they did the Catherine/Vincent relationship, I would be more than happy. With the baby and everything, it was more than obvious there was a physical component to their relationship, but the focus was always on the emotional connection. So, with little more than some passionate hugging and hand holding on screen, they conveyed a beautiful connection. So, it could be done tastefully and convincingly. This being D & D's show, however, I don't know what to expect.
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Post by katie on Mar 28, 2015 21:44:24 GMT
I'm sure y'all have probably seen this Q&A with Sophie Turner in Rolling Stone; it was conducted in April of 2013, so just as Season 3 was starting; i.e. just after the Hound left Sansa during the BoBW. The sub-headline actually reads: "One of the show's most controversial characters takes on the haters, talks romance with the Hound" It's actually pretty remarkable to me that those words -- "romance with the Hound" -- are featured so prominently, in a major publication like Rolling Stone no less! The subject is broached rather casually... There's no indication whatsoever that this is considered "wrong" or "creepy". Even though Sophie says that she doesn't see them together romantically (if she hasn't read the books, I guess that's understandable?), she doesn't blow it off as something weird or uncomfortable and even admits that she thinks it's a "beautiful relationship" and expresses a hope that it can be explored further in the future. (Don't we all, dear...) Again, I point out that this is (a) published in a major magazine, and (b) discussed with no hint of weirdness or discomfort. Which leads me to wonder if a future SanSan romance storyline wouldn't indeed be, if not embraced, then at least accepted by the general audience? Maybe it's not as off-putting as some people would like to make it out to be? And as you say, sillierthings, a romance -- even an intimate one -- can be conveyed on-screen without actually showing any physical intimacy (kissing, lovemaking, etc.). So, it's perfectly doable as far as SanSan goes on GoT I think. As we've been discussing heavily on these boards, Sansa's love life, and especially her virginity, is a MAJOR plot point in the story, so whomever Sansa ends up with... that is going to be a BIG DEAL. And if GRRM does intend for that man in Sansa's life to be Sandor (as we all believe he does), then for D&D to avoid that and/or change it completely would be tantamount to placing someone else on the Iron Throne than GRRM has intended, you know? Yes, I think it is THAT important. If Sandor is Sansa's endgame, then D&D should HAVE to honor that, right? RIGHT?? Sigh... P.S. with regards to GRRM telling D&D his endgame, it always makes me wonder... WHICH endgame exactly? There are a hundred different storylines, so there can't really be just ONE resolution, you know what I mean? Maybe the "endgame" GRRM shared with them was simply everyone's political standing by the end of the series? If that is the case, then whomever Sansa is romantically linked with might not have even come up... P.P.S. I also read that D&D pitched the series to GRRM after only having read AGoT. Soooo make of that what you will I guess... |
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 28, 2015 22:35:23 GMT
So, my conclusion is: the Sansan could definitely be portrayed w/ Sophie and Rory WITHOUT being creepy if they would follow the guidelines of a program who made the clever choice NOT to show a woman get it on with a cat-man (wise, wise choice). However, I don't know what to hope for. As you say, there are so many endgames, so many plot points. With them getting rid of Lady Stoneheart, and combining Ellaria w/ Arianne, with Jeyne Poole gone, with no Val--I don't know how to predict anything. Like you said, maybe GRRM told them the political endgame, and considering their focus on the "Game," that makes sense.
But I agree that Sansa's romantic choice is absolutely integral to her arc. To have her end up with anyone except the Hound at this point seems impossible within the actual books, but I could easily see D and D not caring. Maybe she'll rejoin Tyrion. Maybe she'll be Jeyne Poole instead of Sansa, as you speculated, and be Lady Bolton. The only thing I'm sure of is that I will be disappointed by the show. Woe is me. Heavy sigh.
And knowing that these guys pitched the show after reading only one book, how can they possibly had any kind of grasp on the characters? They fixated on Tyrion as hero from the first book, and if you had not read through ASoS, I could see why you would think that. The problem is that they don't seem to have changed their initial opinions about anyone.
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Post by katie on Mar 28, 2015 23:04:50 GMT
Incidentally, this could be another major reason why GRRM chose to water down the BoBW scene so drastically on the TV show -- it would be hard enough for the average viewer to accept Sandor as a romantic prospect for Sansa with him being so "ugly" and "old" already, but if he had thrown her on her bed and held a knife to her throat too?? Especially with all the context and buildup removed? No way, bro. It's hard enough to get book-readers to accept a romance between them, based on that scene alone... but if he had done it on the show too? Uh-uh, not a chance. In fact, Sandor is way more "gentle" with Sansa on the show in general. Maybe that's why?
And maybe, JUST MAYBE, the reason they cut out the unkiss and all that is because, with such a limited amount of time to work with already, having Sansa continue to think/dream/fantasize or even talk about Sandor post-BoBW would make their eventual romance seem too obvious and convenient. You can hide that stuff more easily in a 1,500-page book than a one hour per episode TV show, you know what I mean? And we've talked about before how subtlety is so important to the SanSan storyline...
[shrug] Whoooo knooooows. I'll be interested to see how they handle Sandor's "death", if at all, this coming season.
But I'm with you, sillierthings; probably best to expect the worst at this point, and be pleasantly surprised if something DOES go right on the show. ;-P
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