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Post by katie on Mar 30, 2015 15:00:31 GMT
At sillierthings's suggestion, I started watching "B&tB" on Netflix, and I admit I didn't even get through Season 1 because omg this show is goofy as fuck!! lololol Cheesy to the extreme, and there wasn't even any kind of a build-up to their romance, which held little appeal for me.
Having said that! I can TOTALLY see the SanSan influences. The most interesting aspect, I think, is Vincent's empathic gift and his "psychic link" with Catherine. If GRRM wasn't actually a writer on this show (or "Executive Story Consultant", as I saw him credited), I wouldn't have thought much of it, but since he is, I am now more convinced than ever that that is not only what Sansa's "special power" is but that is also where the UnKiss originates.
Oh, and I did catch this cheeky bit of dialogue:
Bahahahaha! If GRRM himself wrote that line, oh boy!!!
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 30, 2015 15:24:07 GMT
Oh, it's so cheesy, it's terrible. But I love it! You have to watch it while doing something else--I cannot stand to sit through an entire episode, to be honest, unless I'm distracted with my ipad, a novel, the laundry, etc  . BUT, fast forward to the Vincent and Catherine conversations and just listen to the Sansan-esque dialogue. I swear it's there. Or just look it up on Youtube for the relevant bits so you can ignore the "mystery" plots. Ugh. There is this one episode where Vincent and Catherine are celebrating her birthday or their anniversary or something. I think it's her birthday because she's having a kind of mid-life crisis--she wants a family and a husband, but she's in love with a cat-man who lives in the sewer, and you can't exactly bring THAT home to meet dad, you know? But Catherine is fed up with the NY lifestyle and such. At any rate, that episode reminds me very much of Sansa longing to be married for love, not wanting the the arranged marriages and courtly politics. In addition, Vincent and Catherine exchange gifts. He gives her a long, rather phallic crystal to wear and she gives him some carved flower thing belonging to her grandmother. If I have to point out the symbolism, I will (because that's who I am), but it makes me think of Sansa and Sandor's "song" and daggers/swords. Not that we need convincing that the symbolism and heavy and rich in Sansa's storyline, but I'll take any support I can get . So, yes, it's not a GREAT show, but if you like Sansa and Sandor, I think there are definitely some elements that GRRM recycled into his novels. |
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Post by katie on Mar 30, 2015 16:40:09 GMT
That's actually exactly what I was doing, LOL -- it just put it on and let it run while I was doing other stuff, so I was kinda fading in and out. But now I've switched over to "House of Cards", so "B&tB" is on indefinite hiatus, LOL.
In the meantime, you mentioned that Catherine eventually has a baby with Vincent? How does that work out? Can you see any possible SanSan parallels there? (And is it a cat-baby? LOL)
BTW, it's funny because Vincent doesn't so much look like a cat to me as much as he looks like a severe burn victim. I wonder if GRRM thought the same thing... ;-P
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 30, 2015 18:31:25 GMT
I wonder where this fascination with the beutiful girl & man- monster comes from, what it means in his narrative. It's different from King Kong , where the monster's fascination for the girl leads him to his doom and what's more, it could never be requited in any form, not even platonic.
It's not like B&the Beast either because Sandor and Vincent will never turn into a handsome prince, so choosing them is breaking the rules of society and being brave enough to defy all conventions, even any woman's previous ideas of what their lover could be like or should be like.
Will Sansa dare defy everything and anyone for her love? It would take a lot of courage but she has already been special enough to treat him with respect, to talk to him, understand him and forgive his aggresive behaviour. She also finds excuses for his desertion and doesn't condemn him like everyone else.
She was supposed to be this highborn girl who thought she was meant to become a queen and everyone was wrong because she will choose to love a "beast" and face the world and challenge everyone with her decision.
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Post by katie on Mar 30, 2015 19:31:00 GMT
As one of y'all pointed out before, Sansa is just naturally one of those gals who is not ashamed of what she wants nor doing whatever it takes to get it. And at this point in her development, I think that trait is more pronounced than ever. Once she decides that Sandor is the man she wants, I don't think she'll give two gawddamns what other people think. Especially now that she is soooo freaking sick and tired of being told what to do and who to marry and whom she can or cannot love. Besides, isn't that a common theme in her favorite songs? The star-crossed lovers who, against all odds, would do anything and everything to be together?  (With varying results, of course, LOL) |
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 30, 2015 21:54:56 GMT
The baby is NOT a cat-baby. He is very cute and named Jacob. However, Catherine dies because the evil Gabriel is obsessed with the child (because he's Vincent's, he's superior genetically or something and the super evil rich man must have the best--I don't remember. The motivations get muddy). Now, lest we weep because we think Sansa and Sandor will have an unhappy end, I think they killed Catherine because Linda Hamilton wanted out (to have her own baby or film Terminator). I thought that this Gabriel villain has shades of Petyr--obsessive, kidnaps Catherine and her baby. Vincent comes to the rescue--too late for Catherine, unfortunately, though she dies in his arms. Tragic and romantic and the kind of thing that probably would have Sansa wiping her eyes and sighing romantically about. At the end of season 2, for reasons I don't remember, Vincent loses control of himself and his animal nature is taking over. Only Catherine has the courage to soothe the beast, and she does. It's rather Blackwater-ish, where Sansa calms the Hound with the song, though in the episode, it become apparent later that Catherine actually gave Vincent a "song"--hence baby Jacob. Since Sansa's arc does seem to be all about her agency and her choices, I don't see society being such an impediment, especially in a society that we are increasing shown by the author to be utterly corrupt and flawed. But then, you both know how hopeful I am . |
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 30, 2015 22:04:19 GMT
In her songs the endings are probably sad because the best ballads are usually about ill fated romances. However, she didn't sing one of those tragic stories for him, she chose a hymn dedicated to hope and comfort, like those songs dedicated to the Virgin Mary we (the catholics) learned as kids. They were always postive and even cheerful, some of them connected to spring and Mary was always forgiving and was usually asked to speak in favour of sinners to God above.
She offered Sandor hope in his hour of deepest despair. In fact she should have left with him but the plot wasn't ready for their joining them. So they have to wait until the rest of the plotlines come closer to a resolution. I don't think she didn't go with him because she was drunk and violent but rather the opposite, that Martin made him act like that to make her choice to stay believable and logical. In the show her decision to stay when he offered to take her to Winterfell felt dumb to say the least.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 30, 2015 22:16:24 GMT
The hymn is the key to the whole relationship to me. Because she sang the Mother's Hymn, I fully believe they will find each other, love each other and show each other "a better way" and they will both know a "better day." The lyrics are important and they speak to a happier future, away from war and bloodshed.
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 30, 2015 23:36:20 GMT
But still, I think Martin's fascination for a couple where all the rules are broken is very interesting,the fact that the Beauty will love a Beast against all odds. And she accepts his Beastly nature, his ferocity but not his rage,that anger that frightens her so much. Perhaps there is only one thing that would condemn him for good, kinslaying. Sandor can't commit Cain's sin and he won't. He must give up his wish for revenge against his brother and choose love and Sansa instead. But apart from this,she accepts him,his fear of fire,his scars, his desertion and the mean things he said to her,or how he frightened her.
He doesn't have to change,only to overcome that rage that consumes him and let himself be more gentle but this doesn't mean he has to turn into something else or someone else. Or do you think he was a beast and will stop being a beast to become a man? This makes me wonder what would happen if he wasn't so fierce? She like him for what he is, not for what he could be.
Anyway,this may be my idea of what love means,it means loving a person for what they are, virtues and flaws included.
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. BUT, fast forward to the Vincent and Catherine conversations and just listen to the Sansan-esque dialogue. I swear it's there. Or just look it up on Youtube for the relevant bits so you can ignore the "mystery" plots. Ugh.
(With varying results, of course, LOL)