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Post by katie on Apr 3, 2015 2:27:43 GMT
So, judging by all the comments and reactions I've seen today (here and on Tumblr.... haven't bothered with Westeros.org), I haven't seen ANY Sansa stan, fan, or SanSanite -- i.e. all the people that Elio said might find this chapter "controversial" -- that is upset about this chapter in the least! It just goes to show how little understanding Elio has both of Sansa AND her fans.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 3, 2015 2:39:25 GMT
I guess he believes Sansa is crazy in love with dirty Harry because she says, my betrothed, my love and and things like that, or because he is handsome and she is flirty with him. That's how well Elio understands this story.
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 6, 2015 15:35:00 GMT
The lack of Sandor in this chapter is not surprising at all when you realize how much Sansa has become Alayne in this chapter. It's not that Sansa isn't there--but we see "Alayne" actively shutting Sansa down (calling her father Lord Eddard, for example). Only Sansa knew the Hound. That day was done and so was Sansa, after all. It also seemed that Petyr was more fatherly to Alayne here--there were plenty of kisses, but not lingering kisses on the mouth. Although, I guess he did give her the "giant's lance" made out of lemoncake, even with a little sugar Eyrie on the top ("Go on, Sansa, it takes just like lemoncake!" ugh). So, it may well be that fully becoming Alayne is protecting her from Petyr's more overt advances--that and the fact that they are surrounded by people, including Myranda who seems convinced that Alayne knows how little the Littlefinger actually is (and with that, I have no doubt that Myranda isn't aware that Alayne isn't who she says she is). The fact that there are still so many references that seem to point to the Hound despite them not being blatant (and maybe Elio and friends need it to be blatant before they will believe)is a good sign that day is NOT done and neither is Sansa.
So many songs and fairy tales are coming to life for her in this chapter, and the one fairy tale I keep thinking of with Sansa is Sleeping Beauty. Sansa is sleeping, hidden behind the Alayne persona. We know ghost wolf was waking up and howling on her way down the mountain. What will it take to wake up Sansa? A kiss, perhaps? Like the one given to Sleeping Beauty? Is this what the Unkiss is going to mean--it will bring her back to herself somehow?
She is also, Alayne, and Elaine is known in some versions of Arthurian legend to have disguised herself to woo Lancelot, to bear his child--Is this Harry the Heir or someone else, because in many versions of the myths, Lancelot is very ugly though he is the most noble. In "The Once and Future King," (which I think GRRM has listed among his influences), Elaine gives her favor to Lancelot during a joust,and when Guinevere sees him wearing it, going into a jealous rage. Elaine then commits suicide when Lancelot chooses Guinevere over her. I'm not saying that Sansa will kill herself, but will the tournament somehow help "kill" the Alayne persona?
I know it's all speculation, but there is so much going on in this chapter, but the one thing Elio thinks is controversial is anything but.
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Post by katie on Apr 6, 2015 16:44:28 GMT
Yes, when you remember that this chapter was originally supposed to be in AFFC, the lack of direct Sandor references is neither a surprise nor a big deal, because she had already declared that "that day was done, and so was Sansa", and we had already gotten an abundance of Sandor references in that and previous chapters, so it wouldn't have seemed so jarring in that context.
Also, I think it's important to note that, even after Sansa had declared that "that day was done", she still had ONE MORE thought about the Hound after that (what goes on in a marriage bed), which seems as good an indication as any that she's NOT done with Sandor... she's just putting him away for now. ;-)
And yeah, the more I think about the preview chapter, the more the subtle Sandor references seem obvious. Initially, I became sad when she runs into the Mad Mouse and he catches her by the wrist to keep her from falling, and also when she runs into Lothor Brune, because those are both things that used to happen all the time with her and Sandor. But then I came to realize that GRRM is intentionally trying to evoke Sandor in those instances, and that is actually a GOOD thing rather than a sad one, because it means that he's still a "presence" without needing to actually be named. You know, things that go completely over Elio's thick head...
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 7, 2015 18:35:55 GMT
I agree with you,Katie, those other people doing what Sandor used to do are there to prevent normal readers (not brick heads like Elio)from forgetting about their bond.
I have also noticed that she said Sansa was done,and since that moment,Sandor hasn't been mentioned by name but she still thought of a man in her marriage bed that was undoubtedly him. Perhaps she is no longer Sansa but she still wants him and perhaps Alayne and Sandor will have more chances that Lady Sansa and the Hound. They aren't so far apart now.
When asked if Sansa and the Hound would meet again, George said once that the Hound is dead and there is no Sansa any more, only Alayne. Can Alayne let herself love Sandor in a way Sansa didn't allow herself to love the Hound?
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Post by katie on Apr 7, 2015 18:53:04 GMT
And would/could Sandor love Alayne and not Sansa? I feel like Sansa and Sandor's journeys have kind of switched at this point. Whereas the Hound was the mask that Sandor wore for so many years as a means of survival, Alayne is the mask that Sansa is now wearing for the same reason. But now Sandor has put the Hound aside ("The Hound is dead") and is rediscovering Sandor; however, Sansa is putting Sansa Stark aside and is assuming the identity of Alayne. How will this affect their inevitable reunion? I'm sure Sansa would be pleased to see a gentler Sandor, like she had prayed for so long ago, but what would Sandor think of his little bird now? With brown dye in her hair and a more aloof attitude? Sandor always accepted Sansa for who she was, but Alayne is NOT Sansa. She always wanted to be loved for herself, and Sandor could offer her that, but would/could Alayne prevent it from happening? Would Sandor be okay with referring to Sansa by a name and identity given to her by Littlefinger? Methinks not, so this could get complicated...
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 7, 2015 18:59:59 GMT
Hell, this is disgusting, isn't it? In fact my opinion is completely opposite to Elio,I think this chapter is too obvious as this stupid cake shows and those horrible suitors Myanda runa way from, or that horrible suitor Harry is. Sandor is everywhere,in the detalis, the devil is in the detais, Elio, and it will bite your bottom sooner than later.
And this is lovely, I can't agree more. Sandor was the wolf to Sansa's LRRH when she scorted her and told her about his burns,also the Beast to her Beauty when he offered himself to her (like a proposal),and maybe she is a bit like Goldilocks too because there are three bear-maidern pairs but she will get the right one. She may also be Snowhite to Cersei's evil queen and Rapunzel trapped in a tower, so it makes a lot of sense for her to be woken up with a kiss like Sleeping Beauty.Elio and the such are wrong because they took words at face value, especially words coming from Tyrion's mouth. Littlefineger said life is not a song but nobody trusts him. Too many people think Tyrion never makes mistakes but he does,one of them is depriving Sansa of her songs. Littlefinger said life is not a song but Sansa will proven him wrong. I'm sure this will happen because George is a romantic and Sansa is living a song and fairy tale, and not one but several. Songas are just reminders of like,more often moody than happy. What is life without songs and stories? Martin would never write a book devoid of poetry,he is not like that.
Life is not a song but songs are a product of life,that's why they will never die. These people have also forgotten that songs were written to reflect our lives and our dreams,the good and the bad. Sandly there are people who can't understand art, music or poetry,that's their problem but not Sansa's.
And these same people who accuse a girl of dreaming expect a beautiful idealistic girl to fall for a cynical self-centered whining little man? Call us delusional now! The pot calling the kettle black, LOL.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 7, 2015 19:09:47 GMT
I have to agree with you here. I was lead by my previous idea that if Sansa,the highborn lady disappeared and she turned into a bastard girl, perhaps she would be allowed to love a man like him,but I agree that Sandor,like me, wouldn't like flirty, sassy know-it-all Alayne. She is the kind of "lady" he saw at court and disliked, empty, vain and shallow. He loved Sansa for what she was and not for her beauty as I'm sure at KL there were many beautiful women. If that was important for him he would be in love with his liege lady and queen,Cersei,like Jorah loves Dany. No, Sandor doesn't like that kind of women. He won't love the Alayne we have seen in this chapter,but I think she is the princess in disguise and Sansa is still there. Otherwise I would prefer him to turn round and leave her for ever this time.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 7, 2015 19:16:17 GMT
The version I read didn't say Lancelot was ugly. Are there any classical ones (apart from this new book)where he is ugly? In my version he isn't the most noble either,he is a great mighty knight but not as noble as Gawayn,and much less Galahad.
Sandor is in love with a married woman,like Lancelot,his story is quite similar to his.
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 7, 2015 20:36:56 GMT
No, I don't think Sandor would be too enchanted by Alayne, as you both pointed out with Alayne being to Sansa as the Hound is to Sandor. I can only hope that if Sandor does encounter Alayne, he will recognize the mask for what it is (especially since he's gone through a similar kind of personality split), and hopefully help Sansa find herself again. I am hoping that this is why the Unkiss is important.
Honestly, I get the Arthurian legends confused, there are so many variations. I've read Mallory and I don't think Lancelot was ugly there, though in T.H. White's, he's referred to as the ill-made knight though he's far from perfect. White's Lancelot is still noble, but Galahad is still the most pure.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 7, 2015 20:43:20 GMT
It doesn't matter much because if the new book is the one George lists as an influence,it's the one that matters for our speculatios about his books. And we have commented before that SanSan feels very much like Tristan and Isolde or Lancelot and Guinevere romances. I hope their ending is happier,though.
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Post by katie on Apr 7, 2015 21:00:05 GMT
I think Sandor will appreciate Sansa's ability to stand up for herself now, but at the end of the day, yes, he will have to help her find Sansa again. Because I honestly can't see their relationship working otherwise.
Then again, maybe that's what their "bittersweet ending" will be. They'll be reunited, they'll have a brief affair, but Sansa will be unable to fully detach herself from Alayne, and that will ultimately be the dealbreaker. I'd hate to think so, though. I'd hate to think that Sansa would be gone for good. :-(
Hey, at least we know it'll make for some intriguing conflict, right? lol
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 8, 2015 0:43:16 GMT
Yeah, indeed but when I said I had speculated with her forgetting who she once was was because I'd like her to choose her own path in life,and being Sansa Stark feels like a nighmare to me. She is trapped and unable to take any decisions at all. I can understand Cersei when he abhors her condition as a woman in a world like theirs, treated like cattle and used as a brooding mare and a source of pleasure for a man who would become her owner in all respects when they were married. Just writing this here gives me the chills. Poor thing,and poor women in general. Her only hope is Sandor because he is like a breath of fresh air in her claustrophobic life. Even when they don't beat her,they manipulate her and use her. But Sandor really loves her and would want to make her happy,and what's more important,she likes him,not like she liked Loras because he was handsome but because she likes him as a person. And realistically I can't imagine Sansa Stark as queen of the North,like some want to see her,marrying Sandor. And something forbidden and separated from the laws of gods and men wouldn't work for these two. It may work for others but not for them,IMO. I think they are the classical pairing in a classical romance,not a modern one. So,if they break the rules they will pay and never be happy. Their story will become a tragedy unless they abide the rules of the gods. I'm not saying this because of my personal beliefs but because this is what this story makes me believe.
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