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Post by katie on Apr 2, 2015 16:42:04 GMT
Red alert, you guys!Apparently, THIS is the "controversial" chapter we've all been hearing about. Yeah. So. So much for that I guess.
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 2, 2015 17:08:39 GMT
I just posted on tumblr, but yea...controversial...that was a bunch of crap. I kind of feel like they were baiting the Sansa fans or making a mean jab at "Sansan shippers." Whatever. Like I said on tumblr, I think there are some very subtle Sandor things there, but I'm working and can't go over the chapter again until this evening.
I will say, her "burgeoning sexuality" is not a positive. In fact, her stroking Harry's cheek, promising to be his "spice," is almost, not quite, as gross as Arya making out with Raff to set him up for the kill. Ah, well. I am underwhelmed.
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Post by katie on Apr 2, 2015 17:21:59 GMT
Yes, and that is what troubles me... Because it seems to be implying that this chapter puts the kibash on SanSan altogether. If there's another chapter in TWoW that DOES deal with Sansa's feelings for Sandor (directly or indirectly), they probably would not have been so smug about THIS chapter, would they? Thus it seems like they are subtly gloating. Which is very upsetting. I mean, I know they hate SanSan, but it seems like they are actually getting their way...  Gods I hate how close they are to GRRM... I don't know what stage TWoW is in yet, if GRRM is actually finished and is just in the editing phase now... Do we know how much of the book E&L have read yet? If they haven't read all of it, there might still be hope. But if they have read the whole thing, and this is as "controversial" as it gets? I dunno, you guys.... |
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 2, 2015 17:33:05 GMT
But I didn't think E & L had read any other Alayne chapters. I thought this was it. I don't THINK they've read much more than has been released, but I don't know for sure. Wish someone who knew could chime in.
I didn't think it was that well written a chapter. You could tell it was a kind of rough draft (which actually upsets me more than anything. You've had this chapter for YEARS, George? And that's as polished as it gets?). I read someone's post today on westeros who said that they thought it was more like fanfiction, and I swear to you, when I first read it, with the lovely fanart at the top of the page, I thought it WAS fanfiction. It felt off. Maybe he'll polish it a bit more.
Sansa certainly seemed a lot older and confident, but all the flirting and such, I'm not convinced it spells the end for "Sansan." As I said, I think there may be some Sansan stuff there. I could be wrong. Maybe I'm completely delusional, but there is the Gravedigger. There are Unkisses that "will eventually mean something." There is a big old tourney coming up, and tourney's tend to make Sansa think of her Father's tourney.
Look, I may be completely out of my skull, but I don't get why E and L looked at this chapter and thought "neener, neener, Sansan shippers!" No, I still have hope.
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Post by katie on Apr 2, 2015 17:48:09 GMT
Hmmm, you're right, I think I did hear or read somewhere that of all the chapters of TWoW they have read, it only included one Sansa/Alayne chapter. I wonder how many there will be altogether... There were only 3 in AFFC, so there had better be a helluvalot more in TWOW, and it seems with a Tourney coming up in all, there would almost have to be. Oh, and btw, this is certainly not the FIRST chapter where Sansa never thinks of or mentions Sandor. Her first post-BoTW chapter makes no mention of him at all (except for someone at court noting that he was gone, I think), and her second chapter in AFFC only mentions him when she notes that Bronze Yohn is as tall as the Hound. Soooo it's not like this is really anything new. This might just be the first chapter where his name doesn't come up at ALL, but as you say, that doesn't necessarily mean he's completely absent. Or does it?  I don't know. I thought it was interesting that both Myranda and Lady Waynwood were both wearing green cloaks (Myranda lost hers running to the gate). This on the eve of a tourney no less, where Sandor wore a green cloak for the Hand's Tourney. The chapter didn't make mention at all of what Sansa was wearing, did it? And, of course, that last line: I was so excited when I read that.... until I remembered that LF had specifically told her not to give him her favor. Sigh. It's still intriguing though. Just the way it's worded. Her favor is "promised to another", like it's already been preordained, but even she is not certain as to whom. YET. This could also be the first indication of LF unwittingly driving Sansa into Sandor's arms by having her preserve her favor. Also, it fits in with my theory that SanSan is hinted at in the very text structure by making this line the very last thing we read in the entire chapter... I dunno, I'm just grasping at ANY straws here... which I guess is precisely what E&L were counting on, weren't they?  |
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 2, 2015 18:11:47 GMT
I was about to ask if you had heard anything about the controversial chapter and now I see that you know a lot, LOL. I have to read it first and then comment on it! The link doesn't work for me  |
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Post by katie on Apr 2, 2015 18:49:50 GMT
The site has probably crashed, LOL.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 2, 2015 19:02:36 GMT
I'll comment more later but I agree with sillier-things that what bothers me most in this chapter is that it isn't a good chapter. It lacks the feel,the quality of the chapters George has made us expect. I am very disappointed. If the rest is like this,I don't think I'll read the book, really. There is fanfiction much better than this. And that flirty Alayne,she seems an airhead and Harry is like a hero in a romance novel,from his description to his behaviour. I didn't like the chapter, this is what bothered me. As for the rest, I can't figure out why it should be controversial or why Elio said SanSan fans would like it. The content is nothing special, IMO. It doesn't mean she will fall in love with Harry or something. He is pretty, like Loras, nothing more. What really bothers me is how disappointing as regards style and depth this chapter is. Compared with Arya's Mercy chapter this is utter crap. You are right when you say it resembles fanfiction. Arya's chapter was conteroversial and very disturbing but also haunting and well written. This is so unremarkable that if I had read it to decide if I'd buy the book I never would. I decided to read this series after going through the prologue,which is amazing, this is just the opposite. It really seems to be part of a trashy novel or a fanficition extract. This has nothing to do with SanSan,by the way, because nothing I read here makes me think SanSan is over. On the contrary, there will be a tourney and... will it be in her father's honour again?  Petyr is her father now although fake. Will her hand be the prize for the winner? Her favour will be kept for another. Dunk also went to a tourney and became very important there, and like Sandor, he was not a knight. Really, the only thing that bothers me here is that I didn't like the chapter. What bothers me is suspecting perhaps the quality in George's books is diminishing dangerously. I would prefer for this to be only an outline because if this is the complete version it doesn't bide well. Something else, is it complete? I have read it is just an extract, so we don't know if Sandor was mentioned or not. Also, in the last chapter where she remembered Sandor he was not mentioned, only implied. When she remembered the cruel kiss and so on. Sandor was HE, not Sandor in that chapter. The absence of his name doesn't mean anything at all IMO. Perhaps this ... another refers to him again even if she doesn't know he will come. the word another appears behind a pause. I guess this means something. I'm sure it would mean something if I was talking aboout the George in the first three books but this crappy chapter makes me hesitate,I have to admit. Has George lost his muse, his inspiration? Perhaps it is taking him so long to finish the books because he has lost interest in his story. This is how bad I find this chapter as regards quality, it has made me doubt more than anything else, but because of how unremarkable and mediocre it is. I hate to have said this, but I didn't like it at all.  |
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Post by katie on Apr 2, 2015 19:17:00 GMT
I honestly think he rushed to put this out to either coincide with or counter the upcoming season of "Game of Thrones". Season 5 starts next weekend, and as we already know, D&D have taken tremendous liberties with Sansa's storyline. So I almost feel like this was GRRM's kind of passive-aggressive response to that, to remind people what is REALLY going on with Sansa right now. Which would certainly explain the sloppiness of it. And if it IS only an "extract" of the chapter, I suppose that's good news too (it did seem rather short, but who knows).
I'm glad you brought that up, because I had the same thought. We had previously discussed Sandor's parallels with Dunk (or vice versa), and now here comes another tourney, which played a big role in Dunk's story. Tourneys always seem to yield interesting things with regards to Sansa's storyline, and most especially with regards to her storyline with Sandor. So it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
Apparently this was supposed to be "controversial" because all the Sansa stans will be seeing a Sansa going further into the "dark side", but I didn't get that impression. She's still playing LF's game, yes, but she still seems of sound mind... and of her OWN mind. I don't think she's not too far gone at this point. The only thing that worried me a little is how she made that comment about Lyn Corbray's brother even though she knew it was a sore spot. The Sansa we know would have known better, but it seems like her tact is getting shaky. At least she seemed aware of it too though.
Also, I know people are worried that she keeps referring to LF as "Petyr", but ya know what? I'd be more worried if she was referring to him as "Father". So Petyr it up all you want! LOL I like that she is still making that distinction. He may be Petyr, but he is NOT Father. And never will be.
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 2, 2015 19:21:16 GMT
Well, exactly! If they had not said anything, I would not have thought anything particularly bad about this chapter. Yes, she's flirting heavily with Harry. We expected she was going to have to "seduce" him or something from her last chapter, and we know EXACTLY how she feels about that arranged marriage. In this chapter, she's already thinking about how she cannot get married because she's still married to Tyrion. The confidence, joking and laughing is new, but this is the first time since Ned was killed that she's been shown in any lighthearted way. No, it's not a great situation, but she's not alone with Petyr up on the Giant's Lance anymore either. She has girlfriends--Myranda and Mya (she seems to have gotten closer to them). This strikes me as more of the 18 year old Sansa GRRM was planning on after the age gap. The kind that might think of "making love"--oh, Lord, that made me giggle when she described Myranda's husband dying like that when in the previous chapter, Myranda was all "the old man died whilst fucking me." Ever the romantic. There are green cloaks. Myranda wears a gray dress doesn't she? I'm working from memory from one read. I'll try to look at it again in more detail (if the link works! Yikes! I can't wait to here Eyesofmist's thoughts). That's rather Sandor specific usually. Especially with the talk of the tourney. So, Sansa is creating a Kingsguard type of situation for Sweetrobin. All her idea. You would think she'd hate the idea of a Kingsguard after all she's been through. Might she have some positive connotation via Sandor? Or is this where Sansa's knowledge of stories and songs begins to work in her political favor? She HUGS Lothor Brune after he very bluntly insults Harry. No clever language, just "Harry the Arse" the "upjumped squire." Lothor is Sandor's stand in. We know this. She's made the direct comparison before when Lothor saved her from Marillion, and Sansa runs headlong into Lothor after meeting with Harry. Don't tell me that isn't supposed to recall the Serpentine Scene with the Hound. She has that little chitty chat with Sweetrobin about them not getting married. He has a pimply chest--more like a boy of 13 than 8--and he's already thinking about keeping her as his common woman. Definitely the ages are not matching the character growth, but that is to be expected. This was interesting though: Another hint that Sansa may be getting pregnant at some point? Maybe even with someone's bastard? Her conversation with Harry starts with the discussion of his bastard children. Whatever charm he starts to show toward her, he is absolute SCUM to his women: What-an-asshole. Complete. Total. At any rate, he does acknowledge his daughter Alys. And while GRRM is known for reusing names, Alys just so happens to be the name of Sansa's cousin, Alys Karstark, who married a man with no house and no sigil, running away from an arranged marriage. Alys uses a repurposed Night Watchman's cloak for her marriage cloak. She marries the big, brutal Thenn in a marriage blessed by flames. It could be coincidence, but... And of course: She's trying to warm up to him and appears to be doing so. In fact, she's doing the same thing she had to do with Tyrion--try to find something to desire, and she seems to be able to do so now. But we already know that she has compared him to Tyrion and Harry came up short on kindness. So she runs a finger down his cheek. One finger. With Sandor, she cups his cheek. The Blackwater scene is too important. She cups Sandor's cheek on instinct. Now she is more cognizant run a careful, calculating finger down Harry's face. Is she really admiring him? Does she want him? Eh. No. I hope not because see his comment about Cissy above. What. An. Asshole. And she is saving her favor for "another." This has been rambling, incoherent, pile of emotional word vomit, and I am sorry . I don't know. I need to read it again. |
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 2, 2015 19:29:38 GMT
Yes! The first 3 books came out quickly, one after the other, and they were excellent. AFFC was okay, not as good, but okay. ADWD was a complete slog. I so hope he hasn't dragged this out and lost his muse. As you say, if the quality of the whole book is like this...ugh. But the Mercy chapter WAS beautiful and horrifying. I hope he still has it in him.
I so hope you are right. I'm dreading hearing about Sansa hooking up with Ramsay Bolton, which I fear is going to happen. Ugh.
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Post by katie on Apr 2, 2015 20:13:57 GMT
Me neither. In fact, when I first read it and posted my first impressions, I actually made a point to say that this is clearly NOT the controversial chapter. But knowing that it IS? That is supposed to make SanSans upset?? THAT worries me more than anything I actually read in the chapter itself...
But yeah, there was nothing in here that was unexpected. Sansa is still with LF and she is still playing his game. Yes, we kinda knew that going in already. It also doesn't surprise me that there was no mention of the Hound, because if SanSan does indeed ride on subtly, then GRRM wouldn't have been so foolish as to release a chapter that mentions him in an direct way. But the fact that E&L see this as some sort of "victory".... ugh.
Haha I knoooowwww, I mentioned that in my initial Tumblr post, how adorable she is to refer to fucking as "making love". But that's something I have been wondering about, because it's never been mentioned in those terms before in ASOIAF (that I can recall... I thin Cat might have used the term "lovemaking" at some point). It's usually either fucking, or coupling, or laying with, or going to bed with, etc. I think Sansa is the very first person to refer to it in this manner. Awwww. (Also, yay!)
I noticed that, and I also noticed that the Mad Mouse "catches her wrist" to keep her from falling, like Sandor always used to do. I don't know if this was meant to (very) subtly put us in mind of Sandor or what... cuz it just made me sad, LOL. I was just thinking "AH, NO, Sandor should be doing these things!!!"
Yeah, I just don't see how Sansa would be able to get past that. He's just another in a long line of handsome pricks who treat her based on her social status. Even if he does fall for her, and even if she does give him her favor (and her hand) eventually, can she really be happy living with someone who is essentially Robert Baratheon-lite?? I have a hard time believing that.
People say Sansa deserves better than Sandor. Well, I think she deserves better than Harry Hardyng!!!
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 2, 2015 23:19:44 GMT
I have noticed all these things that make me think of Sandor, I know I may be wrong but I want to share them with you.  Robin wants to marry Sansa and she says he is a fool (like Florian?) for that, because he may not care but his bannermen will. She also comments on Robin's long hair that tumbles over his shoulders. Does this mean anything? Why telling us about how long his hair is when we don't know what colour his eyes are or even his hair? Do we know what colour his hair is? We only know it is long and fine, it was described as fine in a previous chapter. So long fine hair is pretty, it's something to love about a boy/man. That's Sandor's type of hair. This is as if unconsciously she is thinking of something she could love in Sandor's (as well as Robin's)physical appearance in the hypothetical situation she became his wife. There is also this description of Robin's rounded shoulders and pimply chest. Does she ever think of another's long hair tumbling over his broad shoulders and definitely not pimply chest? LOL. This may be very far-fetched but this part reminds me of Sandor: The golden motes that reminded her of golden insects, golden like bees? (making honey?). The snow blankets the heights of the Giant's Lance. What does this mean? Does snow refer to a white mantle, to a white cloak? Below that white cloak and the Giant's Lance autumn lingers and and there is wheat ripening (isn't ripe wheat yellow?). Does this mean Sandor lingers in her mind too. He is the one whose banner is yellow, like the colour of autumn grass. Bgona also thinks that Sandor was probably born in autumn but I'm horrible at calculating dates and things like that. Do you remember the washerwomen taking about the Kettleblacks and comparing them to Sandor?Perhaps comparing them in more that one aspect, LOL. And the sound of steel on steel as a good sound. Why is the sound of steel a good thing? Because she still likes knights? Not really. She has already realised how little honour can be found in knights. But how many times did she describe Sandor's voice sounding like steel on stone? Don't forget that she is Alayne Stone either. Is Sandor the steel and she the stone that can hone him, perhpas help him become better, finer? You need a whetstone to sharpen a blade after all. This ideas may be absolutely crazy but they make me think of Sandor,all of them. |
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 3, 2015 0:27:54 GMT
Sansa makes Robin get over his fears with her stories. So stories can't be so bad if they can be used to remind you of your braver ancestors. Stories are meant to keep memories of a people's and a lineage's history. She also says Robin should have his own kingsguard to keep him brave and safe. Like Sandor made her feel perhaps, safe and brave? He felt safe when he was around and little by little she also became braver and braver.
That autumn that lingered on the vale gives me hope that Sandor will linger in her memory too, that he will survive the winter and so will she and they'll meet again.
She also uses the idea of Winged knights for Robin's KG and she used to be a little bird for some KG non-knight. Nobody called her little bird but him. Those wings remind me of that.
Nestor was showing Lady Waxley his prize tapestries, with their scenes of hunt and chase. The same panels had once hung in the Red Keep of King’s Landing, when Robert sat the Iron Throne. Joffrey had them taken down and they had languished in some cellar until Petyr Baelish arranged for them to be brought to the Vale as a gift for Nestor Royce.
Peter brought tapestries that used to be in the Red Keep? Why does George tell us this? Perhaps to suggest he may have brought certain cedar chest too? Is Sandor's cloak here then, with Sansa's summer silks? Is this even possible? I wonder because I can't imagine why this detail should be mentioned … unless there is a reason to mention it.
Gulltown is mentioned four times or more, once to say there'll be knights coming form that place and then there is a boy (the redhead lad with pimples) from Gulltown who is a suitor for Randa.
The song above was sung in Dunk and Egg novellas, dedicated to a man who stole a kiss with the point of a knife.
When the young pimply knight tells Alayne that she is the most beautiful maiden he has ever seen, we have this conversation:
So, we have a girl who remembers a kiss (that never was) from a man (Sandor) who stole it (as well as a song) form her with the point of a knife and left her nothing but a bloody cloak. And this girl is now a bastard who was born in Gulltown, the place the man in the song went to see the fair maid, with the intention of getting a kiss from her. Don't tell me this means nothing because I can't believe it, LOL. If this is not hinting at SanSan and their unkiss, I'll eat my hat. Gulltown appers too many times to be a coincidence, NOOO.
We also have Myranda wearing a grey (Stark grey) dress and a hooded green cloak and running away from all her suitors. As if she was representing Sansa herself. This is what happened to Sansa and Sansa escaped KL wearing a hooded green cloak. And she is a Stark.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 3, 2015 1:40:33 GMT
When Petyr and Alayne talk about Harry she says he is horrible, just like she told Sandor he was awful once. She also says Lothor thinks he is only an upstart squire,not a great knight as he himself thinks. And she pays a lot of attention to what Lotthor thinks, as she used to listen to Sandor's advice.
Petyr also says this:
Is this foreshadowing? Because she will refuse Harry her favour and Petyr says she won't want green boys when knights come to ask for her favour. Then Harry is only a boy and she will prefer a man.
Like Jon, she won't be able to sit on the dais. This reminds me of Tywin saying you can't keep dogs at your table (meaning Sandor when he says dogs).
This is very similar to what Sandor said to Arya when he wanted Rob to accept him.
Rob didn't have much sense and neither does Harry. Will Harry die young too? May be. Harry is described as a boy and not a man or a great knight.
This is funny, ser Targon Halfwild, who is not what he seems, he is very corteous although he seems wild because of his name (Sandor seems to be a beast but he isn't and Sansa knows).
Then Sansa asks Harry about his children to know if he would lie to her. Since when is honesty so important to her? Since she got to know Sandor, yes. She wants a man and not a boy and she also wants an honest man, it seems.
Petyr told her to seduce Harry but she japed about his woman Saffron and also wanted to know if he was a liar. This was more important to Sansa than seducing him.
I only chose this quote because it reminded me of Peter Steele and his song called Cinnamon Girl. You know I think George took him as a sort of inspiration for Sandor, this may hint in that direction again, LOL.
Harry says that about Saffron and she is described very much like Sansa herself if not for the brown eyes. And her hair is the colour of honey. This reminds me of the Bear and the Maiden Fair.
Sansa notices that Harry is not good at talking, he is not smart (Sandor is) and says she hopes he is better at jousting but both Lothor and Petyr think he is just a boy and not a great knight.
He has dimples,like Loras, and we know that Loras was not meant for Sansa either, although he had pretty dimples too.He is just another pretty boy but pictured in not very good light,IMO. Sansa won't fall for him. He is just another Waymar Royce, there's nothing special about him. Sansa used to sigh for pretty boys like him but now she wants to make sure he is not a liar,which means she has learned to value honesty very much,she notices he is not good at talking,that he isn't smart, and also she hopes he is good at jousting. Why does this matter? She doesn't value knghts any more but she is probably comparing him to someone who is very good at jousting,Sandor. Mentioning his name in her thoughts is unneccesary,IMO. His name wasn't mentioned when she remembered the unkiss for the last time and it was crystal clear she was thinking of him.
All the Lothor references are probably hinting at Sandor. Lothor is like Sandor's avatar now. I think he reminds her of Sandor. Jory Cassel was Sandor's antecedent and Lothor is his reminder,I don't know if this makes sense to you but it does to me. The three or them wore plain grey armor at the Hand's Tourney and are not kniths, they are also protective figures for Sansa. Anyway,the important of the three is Sandor,I'm sure of this.
This chapter hasn't made me waver one bit. I can't believe this Elio guy has dared have people speculation for months with his stupid comments. So Mercy is not controversial but this chapter is? What? Are we reading the same extracts or does this man lack reading comprehension skills?
I think he has no right to mess up with the readers like he did. George shouldn't let peopole like him read any chapters in advance and then leave misleading comments on something the rest of us can't constrast the "information" he thinks he has.
I think he should avoid commenting and stating his own subjective consclusions on something other people didn't have the chance to read and thus ponder if he is right or wrong using their own minds. Otherwise he should keep quiet.
George had better think twice before letting these people read extracts in adavance and then commenting in such a careless manner. And these are the guys who treated SanSan fans on Westeros.org like crap and said that was fanfiction. Well, this commet is disrespectful towards the author,not what SanSan fans speculated. This is misleading people for months into thoughts that have nothing to do with the real content of this chapter. There is nothing controversial whatsoever in it. These guys didn't blink after reading Mercy's chapter, where sexuality played a major role and we are talking about Arya,a prepubescent girl. Mercy was a great character but deeply disturbing. This other extact seems unremarkable compared to that one and there's nothing shocking here as far as I have seen. As for not mentioning Sandor, I could tell him that Sandor's name was not mentioned when Robin and her were kissing and everybody knows she was remembering a Kiss from him, a kiss that never happened,by the way. In this extract there are veiled references to Sandor too,IMO, as valid an opinion as his. I could say where I think they are and the difference is that now people can read the chapter themselves and agree or disagree with me.However, he didn't respect other readers enough to wait until the source material was available to everyboy before stating those opinios, which in my view, are completely misleading and mistaken. But now I can tell for myself and this is not a problem any more.
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Gods I hate how close they are to GRRM...
I don't know.
