|
Post by sillierthings on Apr 6, 2015 16:28:51 GMT
On her wedding night with Tyrion, Sansa looks him over and tries to find something, anything, to admire or desire about him. She cannot and just feels pity.
In the new Alayne chapter, Sansa is discussing marriage with Sweetrobin, and even though she flat out tells him they cannot marry, she looks him over in much the same way, and finally decides he has very pretty hair:
Finally when Sansa dances with Harry, whom she does not like at this point, she knows she has to charm him, so she looks for something to desire:
And with Harry, she finds something. Two things--his teeth and his dimples. It's a moment that made my heart lurch, not because I'm a rabid "sansan shipper" (like Elio seems to think), but because Sansa's little trick of compartmentalization is now working for her. I don't for one minute believe that Sansa really wants Harry. She doesn't want an arranged marriage and even if Harry is good looking AND honest, he's still not her choice. More than that, he's shown himself to be a philanderer, who seems to prize a woman's beauty over all else. Perhaps he is charmed by "Alayne's" wits, but it's a lie. Alayne is a lie. Sansa is clever, but Sansa is not the one he thinks he getting. And what's the one thing Sansa wants? To be loved for herself.
Compare her consideration of these husbands, potential husbands to how Sansa views the Hound. Rather than find one thing of beauty to focus upon with the Hound, she says that the scars are really not the worst of him and it's the anger in his eyes that's so frightening. It suggests to me, that other than the anger (and the scars to a lesser degree), Sansa really has nothing to find fault with. It's a small thing, but it seems like it's significant. With others, she looks for ANYTHING she can like. With the Hound, it seems like she identifies the ONE thing she doesn't like--and we know she prayed for him about that.
|
|
|
Post by katie on Apr 6, 2015 16:57:55 GMT
Harry represents everything that Sansa's arc is moving away from: (1) shallow pretty boys, (2) asshole pretty boys, (3) guys she's paired off with against her will, (4) guys who put more stock in her social status than her as a person. As I've ranted about before, for her to actually end up with this guy in the end just completely contradicts 4 books worth of character development. I think Harry's function here, at this point in the story, is to show how much Sansa has grown. How she no longer takes men at (literal) face value. How she no longer makes excuses when hot guys act like pricks. How she will no longer stand for being mistreated by males of any kind. Bravo, gurl!
EDIT: Ironically, I think the twist here will be that Harry DOES eventually fall for "Alayne", but by then, it will be too late because she's already decided he's a prick and has no interest in being pawned off to men anymore. And also because she is, as she herself said, "promised to... another." ;-)
It's interesting because she has never made excuses for Sandor. She's always been highly conscious of his flaws and never tried to whitewash them. Some people claim that is what she's doing with the UnKiss, that she is once again making excuses and trying to "spin" a bad thing into something more psychologically manageable, but I don't see that as the case. She is CERTAINLY aware of what happened that night, but she UNDERSTANDS why he behaved that way and is taking it for what it is. The UnKiss is clearly and obviously a manifestation of her latent feelings for him, not a "coping" mechanism. And I think it was the fact that she DID find him so physically unappealing at first that gave her "permission" to look at him more objectively -- to not make excuses for him and to come by her fondness for him more organically. Whereas she had to try to make up reasons to like Joffrey and Tyrion and LF and Harry, she already has legitimate reasons to like Sandor. She never had to FORCE herself to feel something for him; she just DOES, and that makes all the difference in the world.
|
|
|
Post by sillierthings on Apr 6, 2015 17:09:13 GMT
Yes, I think you clarified that perfectly! She doesn't HAVE to feel anything for Sandor. He's not a suitor. He's horrifically scarred and at first glance, terrifying for her to look at. She doesn't make excuses for him because he's beautiful or high-born or set to be her husband. So, when she does have feelings for him, we can trust those feelings as being genuine. I agree entirely with your assessment of the Unkiss.
I just find it reassuring that even though Sansa is doing some serious flirting with Harry, she's actually doing pretty much the same thing she's always done when men she doesn't know or particularly want are thrown at her. She's just doing it more successfully now, but I think it's a clear sign that Harry is just one more in a long line of men she doesn't really want: Joffrey, Willas, Tyrion, Sweetrobin...
|
|
|
Post by sillierthings on Apr 6, 2015 17:41:55 GMT
Yes, I got the sense that Harry was getting set up to "fall" for Alayne, but again, what an asshole! He knocks up Cissy, but after she gives birth to his daughter, he decides she's too fat and lets her be pawned off to the man-at-arms. Now he's in love with Saffron, whose beauty he brags about to Sansa, and whom he has knocked up. I find it telling that he blushes when Sansa questions the name Saffron. Either he is a man in love, and he's blushing at being called out. However, I'm also thinking that this proud man, who insulted Alayne for being a bastard, for daring to think herself worthy of him, is blushing because he's clearly going on and on about a low status girl.
Harry "loves" Saffron. Saffron is going to have his baby. Is Harry going to marry Saffron? No way. Even if the betrothal with Alayne had not occurred, how could proud Harry the Heir, future Lord of the Vale, marry SAFFRON. He can't. He wouldn't. He won't. But he'll make her believe that it's true love. She will have his bastard and then when she's fat from birth, he'll find another and/or he'll marry a woman worthy of his status. Think of poor Mya and her love Mychal Redfort--the chapter begins with her:
"Mya had straw in her hair and a scowl on her face. That scowl comes of having Mychel Redfort near, Alayne knew."
So, Sansa is seeing first hand the heartbreak of these low-status girls who give their love to these careless lords who love them and then leave them. Mya luckily doesn't have Mychal's bastard in her belly, but Harry seems to be fertile and doesn't seem to care if he knocks them up.
Even if he is charmed by Sansa, is such a man going to be faithful to her? Doubtful. Besides, I don't know how aware Sansa was of the tension in her parents' marriage, but she knows the pain of being a bastard, not the least of which because of Jon. She may not have been the most sensitive of girls to his plight, but she knew he was jealous and resentful of being a bastard. Again, Alayne is playing at being a bastard, but she knows Mya's feeling about being abandoned by her father--remember her sad little story coming down the mountain? The long and the short of it: Men leave. Don't trust them.
So, yes, we end this chapter with Harry warming to Alayne and Alayne admiring his teeth and dimples and telling him she'll be all the spice he needs. And Harry--Harry who is so in love with Saffron--He grinned. “I will hold you to that promise, my lady. He goes for it." Asks for her favor.
|
|
|
Post by katie on Apr 6, 2015 18:03:44 GMT
I almost feel like we could be getting set-up for another Robert-Lyanna-Rhaegar thing here... where Harry is Robert, Sansa is Lyanna, and Sandor is Rhaegar, in that Harry may very well fall for Alayne/Sansa and even believe that he "loves" her as Robert claimed to love Lyanna, but Sansa will know better, as Lyanna did, that he could never actually be faithful, and she will choose instead to run off with another. Of course, in THIS version of the story, it's a happier ending, LOL... We hope!
But yes, I don't think it could escape Sansa's attention that, if she were to marry Harry, she would have to deal with his bastards too. Like you said, she had to have known what it was like for Catelyn to have to endure Jon in her household. And while I think Sansa would be kinder, it would still be an awkward situation. And Harry is no Ned. ;-P
|
|
|
Post by eyesofmist on Apr 8, 2015 23:32:47 GMT
Why did Mya have straw in her hair? Because of rolling in the hay with that Redford guy ? Redford is like Harry,also like Robert, as Katie pointed out. What happens to Mya is what may happen to Alayne,who is also a bastard. Harry will leave her for another,even if they are married he will always find another Saffron. Another option is that Harry is like Mr Willoughby in Sense and Sensibility. He woos Kate Winslet's character but marries a rich girl for her money. Kate find love in the arms of an older man, who is protective and reads her poetry,LOL. On the wedding day,we can see Willoughby looking at them from a faraway hill,and we know he really loved her and lost her,because of the money. So, Harry may love Saffron but won't marry her,I think,and he will suffer because she will be married off to another,as her father is so rich. I love the comparison with Rober,Lyana and Raeghar,and at a tourney (Harrenhall, I think),Raeghar chose Lyana as queen of love and beauty,giving her a crown of blue roses. Raeghar won the tourney. Sandor already did this in KL,he was the champion although he didn't choose his queen of love and beauty,not to the world,but I think that by them he was already lost,his heart was already hers.
|
|
|
Post by sillierthings on Apr 9, 2015 0:08:11 GMT
I hadn't thought about Mya rolling in the hay! Yikes! Could it be? I though it was just to show that she's rough around the edges, working with her mules, but maybe...
I like the Lyanna, Rhaegar comparison as well. And in that tournament there was a mystery knight, the disguised Lyanna it is presumed. Now who will the mystery knight be for this tournament? Brienne? With her shield like Dunk's and Pod her faithful squire, I could see her entering the tournament (with Jaime hidden nearby? Not sure what to do about him). Brienne knows the way to the Quiet Isle. Maybe she'll be the one to help Sansa escape. Ah! Speculation is such fun.
|
|
|
Post by katie on Apr 9, 2015 0:49:32 GMT
One wonders how Brienne would even get there though. She's busy at the moment luring Jaime to his death at the hands of LSH & the BwB, LOL. Their storylines are going to have to converge eventually though. Both Jaime and Brienne are looking for Sansa, Brienne knows the "truth" about the Hound and she's been to the QI, AND she's the only person in the seven kingdoms to link (albeit erroneously) Sandor with Sansa, and Jaime seems to be the only person in the seven kingdoms to express doubt about Sandor's involvement in Saltpans. It all has to mean something in the end. Right? RIGHT?? X-P
|
|
|
Post by katie on Apr 9, 2015 0:51:45 GMT
And I agree with sillierthings that Mya had straw in her hair cuz she was working in the stables. I think if she had actually gotten any sweet lovin' from Mychel, she would have been in a better mood, heehee.
|
|
|
Post by sillierthings on Apr 9, 2015 1:31:57 GMT
I think Mya is D-O-N-E with Mychel Redfort, or at least she's trying to be. Poor girl to be so disillusioned by men--first Robert and then Mychel. You could read it as yet another reason to be wary of Harry. Mya is the example of what happens when the young lord toys with the base born girl's heart, and she's also the warning of what happens to the bastard children of such lordlings. They are abandoned. No, Harry is a creep and Mya's situation explains why.
|
|
|
Post by katie on Apr 9, 2015 1:46:08 GMT
Which is why Sansa needs to take Mya aside and be all like, "gurlfriend, whatchoo think about that Lothor guy, hmmmmmm?" ;-)
"Oh but he's so homely...!"
"Believe me, the homely ones are better."
But yes, Sansa is well schooled in how adultery and bastardy can ruin lives. No way she'd want to involve herself in that willingly.
|
|
|
Post by eyesofmist on Apr 9, 2015 20:54:11 GMT
The problem is that she is married to Tyrion herself. I don't know how the hay ended up in Mya's hair, but that mention of the word hay and her former lover being there,joined to the absurdity of the whole chapter made me wonder if Martin wasn't playing with words. The chapter can't be more absurd. I'm looking forward to seeing Sansa back, I don't like the Alayne in this chapter one single bit.
|
|
|
Post by katie on Apr 9, 2015 21:27:19 GMT
As much as I dislike Alayne for varied and obvious reasons (chief among them being something forced upon Sansa by LF), I think, at the end of the day, Sansa will learn a lot from her. Like how to be less judgmental, how to be more accepting of the lower class, how to be more bold and assertive, and how to stand up for herself. These things were present within Sansa all along, of course, but I think Alayne can be the water that helps those seeds grow. I think Sansa will take advantage of the opportunities that Alayne presents her with.
And, of course, all of this will be used to backfire against LF... which will be HILARIOUS. ;-)
|
|
|
Post by eyesofmist on Apr 9, 2015 22:06:14 GMT
If Sansa had been what Alayne is like now, I would have found her boring, more boring than I find Dany,which is quite a lot to say. I liked Dany in the first book but she became more and more boring in each subsequet book. I'm curious about that pillow tax but this is not why I like Sansa. I'm not all that interested in two teenagers talking about naughty things,sorry, I'm as boring as that. What I found fascinating were those chapters where we could see KL through her eyes, and those mysterious encounters with the Hound blew me away. If I wanted someone funny I would have read Stephanie Plum (and I have,by the way).
I don't like this new Sansa,not because she behaves in a way I dislike,no, it's becuase what she is doing is boring for me. I don't care about what's going on with her any more. I hope it's only one chapter,because I liked all her chapters except this one.
I want that eery atmosphere,that strange chemistry between her and Sandor back,even her memories of him are more interesting and also sexier than all those scenes with characters fucking in this series,IMO. That was magic,this is not. Grrr. Sorry for ranting,but Randa and Sansa together remind me of TV shows for teenagers I'm not interested in. Even her chapters without Sandor were so much better than this extract. The text is full of references but I didn't enjoy it. I still think it lacks quality,perhaps it's a draft, some people have suggested this. The quality of the language has nothing to do with what Martin usually offers.
I don't want to see Sansa turn into someone different,especially if this someone is boring.
|
|
|
Post by sillierthings on Apr 9, 2015 22:29:14 GMT
Well, I don't mind the girly talk, but I miss it having Sansa's thoughts underneath. In some ways, I think Sansa was too much Alayne, and I missed Sansa. On the other hand, I like Sansa being confident and being able to laugh and joke.
I was just thinking about Myranda's jokes about sausages and Alayne's saucy comment to Harry: "I hope you joust better than you talk." It seemed a Hound-ish kind of thing to say. It's blunt. It's teasing. It might be a bit of innuendo. The point is, no, I don't much like Sansa being Alayne; however, I like that this girl could meet the Hound drunk on the Serpentine and be able to banter with him a bit, and perhaps even enjoy it. Not that I don't want her to be Sansa, but I do want her to be able to hold her own when she meets up with Sandor again.
|
|