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Post by katie on Apr 16, 2015 19:38:44 GMT
I think maybe all the sadness surrounding Sansa's storyline on GoT is getting to me, and it doesn't help that I have seen people recently claim that Sansa's history of sexual abuse includes Sandor, that his actions during the BoBW were actually an all-out "sexual assault" (whut??) and that the UnKiss is Sansa's way of coping with the "trauma" of that night by basically AU'ing the entire incident because she is in complete denial about it, and I'm just... I can't...
eyesofmist, you have mentioned before how the TV show frustrates you because it makes you feel like you have read the books wrong, but that's how I feel when I see posts like this on Tumblr, from other people who have actually read the books and meta extensively about it.... How can we possibly be reading the same thing? And, even worse.... what if they are RIGHT??
But they couldn't be, could they?? He never did anything "sexual" with regards to Sansa... he pinned her on the bed; does that count as sexual assault these days? I dunno, guess I missed that memo. Was it because he commented on her breasts on the Serpentine Steps? So, one passing comment about how she is starting to physically mature, and suddenly he's a bona fide pedophile? One of the most remarkable things about Sansa and Sandor's relationship is that, unlike EVERY other man in Sansa's life, he never DID lay a hand on her in a sexual manner. Chin, shoulders, arms, wrists -- that was the extent of his physical contact with her. Even when he had her pinned down on the bed, he never tried to, like, feel her up or rub up against her or anything. He does later tell Arya that he thought about having sex with her, but he didn't actually DO anything sexual to her!! If that incident really was a sexual assault, then why did Sansa get out of her bed and deliberately wrap herself in his cloak? Why did she KEEP his cloak?? Why does she keep thinking about him kissing her??
If he really had sexually assaulted her, why would she go to such lengths to romanticize him at all?? It's not like she's never been betrayed by someone she thought she could trust -- so why would she NEED to "rewrite" this incident with Sandor Clegane, of all people? He gave her no real reason to like him at all, really, let's be honest. She SHOULD have hated him already, but she didn't. So, if he really HAD done something that awful that night, why wouldn't she have just said, "Well, geez, he really was a jerk, can't believe he did that, moving on..." But no. Instead, she goes back to that night in her head often, she lays awake at night thinking about it, she goes through many pains to be able to see that night from his perspective. Why would she even bother if she didn't feel something more substantial for him?? If she really was so frightened of him and "abused" by him, then why wouldn't she just be HAPPY that he was GONE from her life and move on from that ugly encounter and just forget about it??
I mean, it's not like Sansa hasn't endured trauma before, and been PROFOUNDLY affected by it. Remember after her father's death when she just stayed in bed for weeks and even considered suicide? It's not like this girl isn't affected by stuff that she SHOULD be affected by!!!
Am I making any sense here??? LOL. I feel like I am rambling. Suffice it to say, I am really frustrated right now because these a-holes are making me question all the careful reading I have done and I need you guys to reassure me that I'm not crazy, LOL. ;-)
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 16, 2015 20:49:52 GMT
Lol! Just today I sent eyesofmist a message telling her I was afraid I was a "nutjob" and reading too much into stuff! I know those doubts!
Honestly, Katie, your analysis of the Unkiss you posted the other day was the most straightforward, coherent readings of that I have seen so far (and I've searched through the meta, because I love meta). As I read your post I was nodding and smiling. The simplest answer is usually the best one, and you're right--she was "correcting" the moment. The kiss should have happened. In retrospect, she would have liked a kiss to happen if she hadn't been half drunk and terrified, if he had not be completely drunk and terrified (and covered in blood and vomit).
I don't want to be unsympathetic, but do people actually rewrite abuse in their head to make it romantic? Is that an actual coping mechanism? This guy sexually assaulted me so I'm going to imagine he kissed me passionately and use this memory as a comfort, especially when other men seek to harm me. It doesn't add up. As you say, girls don't make up kisses they did not want. And no, I personally, don't think anything Sandor did counts as sexual assault. I mean, he doesn't even kiss her when he thinks she doesn't want it.
Sansa gets skeeved out plenty of times by men's unwanted attention: Littlefinger making her feel like she doesn't have clothes on, Pycelle having her bedmaid hold her down while he touched her all over to "examine" her, Dontos giving her sloppy kisses even when she tries to dodge him, Tyrion grabbing her breast and making her shudder (not in a good way), Marillion running is hand up her thigh and asking her if she were wet--Sansa reacts realistically in all these situations. She doesn't like it!
When Sandor drunkenly appreciates her "teats" (and her face and her height and how grown up she's looking), he is DRUNK and as soon as he says it and realizes what he says, he checks himself. Later when he asks for a song, yes a sexual innuendo--he's just opened up to her about his family's history and helped her lie to Boros to cover for her--it's a tease, and a rather gentle one. He asks for it "one day," and while he does say "whether you will it or no"--she let's him know with no hesitation that she'd be glad to sing for him. Even if she didn't know what he was talking about, she still tells the Hound, the HOUND, that she'd happily sing for him, and I don't see any reason at all to think she's lying about that.
He protects her, he teases her, he talks with her and the threat of violence he subjects her to never comes to anything. It's a threat, and she UNDERSTANDS. I'm not saying it's good. I'm not saying Sansa and Sandor are a model relationship, but as you pointed out so well in your commentary, she UNDERSTANDS him and she misses him, wishes he was there with his ferocity to protect her. Even before she finds him in her bed, she thinks how she wishes the Hound were there instead of Payne because she believed he would let no harm come to her. All that even before he makes what amounts to a declaration of love to her.
Looking back, she's figuring him out. She's figured Lothor Brune out, figured out he loves Mya. Lothor, that stand in for Sandor--you mean she hasn't put it together that the Hound loves her? You mean her memories of his "cruel mouth" aren't influenced a lot by her figuring out that he wanted her and her figuring out that she wants him too?
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Post by katie on Apr 16, 2015 21:29:01 GMT
LOL! I have to remind myself of all the other brilliant meta-ists I have seen make the same arguments. Hell, several of my SanSan postings have been reblogged by ASOIAF University, so even if it's not something everyone agrees with, I must be making sense, right? (granted, it's probably nobodysuspectsthebutterfly that is reblogging those posts, but that just proves my point, LOL; she knows her shit, she knows the material backwards and forwards, and even she is vocally pro-SanSan... so the rest of us can't be crazy).
Thank you! The way I look at that scene is quite simple: In the moment, she was terrified, OF COURSE, and she had every right to be. She was drunk and scared, he was drunk and scared, Cersei had JUST told her that she would probably get raped that night, and she had NO IDEA what would happen to her. Yes, Sandor did act a fool to be sure, and Sansa expressed very real fear for her life at one point. He pinned her down, he held a knife to her throat... no small potatoes to be sure, and I'm sure this must have seemed pretty messed up to Sansa considering she had only just a few hours ago thought to herself how the Hound would never let any harm come to her, and here he is pointing a knife to her throat. But the fact that it went no farther than that, the fact that, after she sang, she touched his cheek and felt his tears and then he just got up and left... THAT is what counted in the end.
People always react to things that happen to them in the moment, and depending on the outcome, they will look back on it in a certain way. This is probably a bad example, but... when I was in pre-production for my last short film, I was a MESS. I spent 6 months in utter misery because I was so afraid that everything would fall apart once we got on set. My mom kept telling me not to worry and to just enjoy myself, but I couldn't. When we finally did get on set, everything went off without a single hitch. And after we wrapped, my mom said, "See? Don't you feel silly for all that needless worrying you did?" Well, I said that I didn't, because I legitimately had NO WAY OF KNOWING that the shoot would go as well as it did. I was reacting authentically to the information I had at that time. But there is a part of me that wishes I HAD just let go a little bit and enjoyed myself more. So, what do I do now when I look back on that time? Remember all the precious few GOOD moments about it! LOL. Like I said, probably not the best example when compared to Sansa's sitch with Sandor during the BoBW, but I think you get my point. In the light of day, after having time to think about it and process it, knowing that no actual harm had come to her, Sansa was able to look back on the night with a different perspective than the one she had when she was in the moment. If he actually HAD done something to her... that would be a whole different story.
And just a reminder, the UnKiss wasn't even mentioned until her second ASoS chapter, implying that she had ALREADY come to terms with that night before the UnKiss even existed. So how can you really justify calling it a coping mechanism when she has already done her coping??
And like I said, why him?? Why the need to romanticize him?? Logically, shouldn't his actions have confirmed her worst fears about him?? The last thing she said to him before he showed up in her room was "You're awful." It's not like this is Joffrey or Loras, someone she had a little crushy-poo on and felt the need to make excuses for to perpetuate her schoolgirl fantasies about him. She never made excuses for Sandor before, so why start now?? After he'd HELD A KNIFE TO HER THROAT?? If she was already predisposed to hate him so much, then wouldn't this have been the dealbreaker?? But no, it wasn't, because she knows him better than that.
Let's say, hypothetically, that Sandor had never told her the story of his burns. Let's say they'd only had a few brief encounters in King's Landing prior to the BoBW. And THEN he had showed up in her room and put a knife to her throat. What do you think her reaction would've been THEN? Well, obviously, that whole incident probably would not have happened at all if not for their previous interactions, nor do I think the outcome would have been the same. It definitely would have been much uglier, and I don't think Sansa would have stayed up nights thinking about it afterwards. I think she would want to put it out of her mind as quickly as possible.
Apparently that is as good as an actual act of violence for some people, though. People claim Sandor was straight-up abusive toward Sansa. Because he called her stupid a few times? Sandor was definitely a bully, but did anyone consider that he has, like, ZERO social skills? And that he's a great big man-child who doesn't know how to handle sentimental feelings toward a girl? Not saying this to excuse his behavior, because he was a dick to her to be sure... I am again reminded of a personal experience with this guy I had a crush on in middle school; he was very much like the Hound in that he was gruff and a bad boy and I was completely infatuated with him. He would tease me mercilessly, but I would gladly take it because negative attention was better than no attention at all, right? LOL. But at the same time, he would have these fleeting moments of tenderness and I could glimpse beneath the gruff exterior. During a school dance once, I was feeling low, and he was right there trying to comfort me. He gave me a hug and then said (and I will never forget this): "I may treat you like shit, but you're still my friend." LMAO! Of course, stupid 12-year-old me (hey! Sansa's age!) thought that was the sweetest thing anyone ever said to me. And it totally reminds me of how Sandor interacts with Sansa. He may be a shitty friend, but he's HER shitty friend, LOL.
EDIT: Besides, if GRRM really intended that scene to be "traumatic", I don't think he would have written such a lovely, tender version of it for the TV show, amirite?
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 17, 2015 10:18:41 GMT
I read your new posting on the Unkiss and rather than add my commentary to it, I thought I would respond here. Again, you nailed the issue. Why him? Why Sandor--of all the men who treated her like crap but still had moments of being okay, why pick Sandor to imagine a kiss with. It doesn't make any sense at all until you realize that she does it because she WANTS to kiss him AND she gets him. He threatens her, this is true, but unlike with other men, Sansa never acknowledges a a sexual threat from him. She thinks he's full of rage, that he bites the hand that tries to pet him (like you pointed out in your commentary)--which is adorable in its way because yes, Sansa is "petting him" and he's like a junk yard dog who doesn't know what to do with that--, and even in the BoBW scene, she NEVER thinks rape. She thinks he's going to kiss her, but he doesn't. She thinks he's going to kill her, not rape her. The scene has sexual overtones--that cannot be denied--but Sansa's reactions to Sandor are very different to her reactions to the other men who pose sexual threats. Again, as you rightly say, in her Unkiss memories, she's never angry about the kiss--she's mad because he left her. Even after she flees King's Landing, you get the sense that she expects him to come back, that she wants him to come back. Why else would she imagine Lothor Brune was the Hound, coming to save her? When Arya travels with Sandor, she compares him to Shitmouth, who would say terrible things, but ultimately, he was the guy who would give her extra bread if she asked for it. Though Arya recognizes the Hound is more dangerous than Shitmouth, she has him figured out fairly quickly. He threatens, he's rough, and he PROBABLY would do the things he threatens, but he doesn't. Sandor is a lot more violent with Arya--shaking her til her teeth rattle, rolling her up in the blanket at night, and so on. The only time he EVER hits her is when he's trying to save her life at the Red Wedding and he knocks her out so he can get her out of there. In fact, I love their conversation afterward where she is bitching at him about that hit, and he tells her that he hit her with the FLAT of the ax otherwise chunks of her head would be floating downriver. The fact that Arya feels safe enough with him to COMPLAIN about it says a lot, in my opinion. Then, of course, Sandor brings up Sansa--singing a song of thanks, and Arya makes the comment that brings him the closest to hitting her out of rage: Did you hit Sansa on the head with an ax too? No, but he did go too far with her, and he knows it. He calls Arya a stupid little bitch at this point, if I remember correctly, but he doesn't go farther than that. How upset and angry with himself he is about how he acted with Sansa. Even without the deathbed confession, the fact that Arya implies he might have hurt Sansa (or even worse that Sansa would mistake his blundering good intentions for hurt) tells the reader how he feels about that situation. And actually, I think Arya and the Hound's discussion of how she did not like the way he saved her does parallel the BoBW scene with Sansa. He saved Arya, but it was with violence, and she didn't like the way he saved her. Sandor tried to save Sansa, got violent, and left ashamed of himself. He's so lost--trying to be a hero to these girls, and he's getting it wrong somehow. Even when he does it right, and saves the girl, as with Arya, it's still not good enough--he didn't save her mother as well, he hit her, he didn't let her stay to die with her family. I know this parallel has been made before, but I haven't seen it discussed recently. Sandor's memory of Sansa's song is his equivalent to the Unkiss. She sang for him, but not as thanks for saving her. She sang under threat during the battle, but isn't it interesting that he moves the placement of that song? He messes with the timeline of events, and mentions it so much you see how he's trying to convince himself that it did happen like he wanted it to happen. Isn't Sansa doing the same thing? The kiss didn't happen, but everything else did. She's "correcting," to quote you, the moment to make it fit the fairy tale because Sansa and Sandor do have a fairy tale romance, but the story just needs a bit of editing  . And one more point, that I don't even know how to address, but I've seen the term "rape apologist" thrown around when positive readings of the Unkiss are discussed. For one, Sandor did not rape Sansa. Two, people do really crappy things. People we love and who are kind to us most of the time can turn around and hurt you. Do we never try to understand why they do the things they do? Do we never say, yeah, that was wrong, but I understand why you did it and forgive you--which is what Sansa is essentially doing for Sandor? Does Sandor not make a death bed confession about how wrong it was to force the song? Do people never move on after a bad situation occurs between them? And I'm not talking about "moving on" from rape because Sandor DOESN'T rape Sansa. I understand people's fear of romanticizing abuse. I get that and completely respect that concern, but Sandor is not Christian Grey, you know? |
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Post by katie on Apr 17, 2015 16:53:58 GMT
Why not, say, Arys Oakheart? She readily admits that he's an okay dude and is actually relieved when he is the one who shows up to escort her to Joff's tourney. He's gallant and courteous to her and even though he did hit her on Joff's command, he "at least" argued a little bit first, LOL. So why isn't HE showing up her sexy dreams? But no, she barely gives him a second thought outside of that first ACoK chapter. YES! SO important. She never feels sexually threatened by or with him, even here. The incident IS erotically-charged in many ways, but at no point does she think he is going to rape her. Bless her little heart.  Yeah, she even says that his bark is worse than his bite, that she doesn't really think he would make good on his threats. One has to assume that Sansa thought this too. She doesn't even flinch when he lays his sword against her neck! I'll quote the exchange here because I think the context is fascinating and crucial: So, here we have Sandor perpetuating his OWN, ahem, "rewriting" of the BoBW incident, and then Arya completely shatters the illusion. You can practically hear the "record scratch" when she makes that axe comment, LOL. Ooooh you stepped in it now, gurl!!! The mere suggestion that he would hurt Sansa is utterly offensive to Sandor. And yet... he DID do a very bad thing. But even for as bad as it was, I'm sure it's a hundred times worse in his own head. And it's probably a thousand times worse than how Sansa views it. And here's Arya going and reminding him of it, popping his own romantic bubble. So, yeah, defensive much, Sandor? ;-) He just can't win with these Stark girls, can he? LOL. Hopefully he gets the chance to make it up to one of them someday soon... Yes, I've alluded to this is past metas, but I don't think I have ever seen a post dedicated solely to it. Maybe that'll be my next one, LOL. Because I think it is important that people realize and acknowledge that Sandor is "rewriting" it too. For someone so dedicated to truth and honesty, and for someone who looooves to brag about all the shitty things he's done, it's interesting how utterly in denial HE is about the BoBW. (Are you paying attention, Anti-SanSan fanboys?? Of course not, bring me more wine and chicken!!!11!) I think something to also keep in mind here is that Sansa herself never feels "abused" by Sandor. She acknowledges that he says shitty things and that he is angry all the time, but she never feels victimized by him. I guess someone would argue that that's the very epitome of an abused girl -- that she doesn't even realize that she is being abused -- but I think that is not giving Sansa enough credit. I think she understands the difference between actual abuse and someone just blowing smoke. Joffrey, Ser Meryn, Ser Boros... THOSE are abusers. THEY make Sansa feel angry, helpless, and victimized. Sandor? Yeah, he calls her an idiot sometimes, but he is all talk. He never degrades her really, he never plays mind games with her or manipulates her, and he never lays a hand on her except to catch her when she's falling or to make her look at him. He's annoying and frustrating, yes, but I wouldn't categorize him as "abusive". He's "abusive" like a lovestruck 3rd grader on the playground. ;-P |
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 18, 2015 14:39:15 GMT
Exactly! Sandor has a confidant to share his "She sang me a song story" with, and what's more, it's Sansa's own sister. As a result, he's not allowed to keep his fantasy because Arya sets him straight. She may not get everything that's going on, but Arya knows delusion when she smells it. Wolves and dogs can smell a lie. He's forced to face the truth, make his confession, ultimately. However, can't you just hear is smug tone in his head when he says, "You ought to thank me. You ought to sing me a pretty little song, the way your sister did." Yep. He's all, Sandor Clegane, Big Hero, Savior of Girls. Sing for me. All the girls do. And Arya's reaction is "Psssht! Right! Your rescues suck!" And they do. They really do. Because real life is not EXACTLY a song. 9 parts mess, 1 part magic.
Forgive me for being repetitive, but other people have had YEARS to discuss these books. I've only been reading them for the last two years, so I haven't talked all the points out yet. I love how that scene shows you how much of his anger toward Sansa on Maegor's Holdfast probably WAS resentment that she did not say thank you. She missed her cue. He played the role of hero to perfection--sweeping in, lopping off arms, galloping away on her horse. Beautiful, fairy tale stuff there, and she doesn't even say thank you?! In a way, he's giving Sansa the benefit of the doubt. Surely she would have thanked him if she hadn't been scared. She's not just one of those cold, courtly women. They really had something between them, right? right?? Right?!
So, he pretends she did. Tells Arya, whom he also rescued in a pretty spectacular fashion that she should be thanking him, too. He just cannot win, this poor suffering idealist.
Then we have Sansa. She knows how the songs work. Sansa gets not only the daring rescue during the riots, she also gets the dramatic bedroom declaration of love and rescue attempt, and whoops, doesn't recognize it for what it is--AGAIN! Upon reflection, she decides she understands and does some rewriting of her own. Maybe she was unwise to not leave with the Hound. At the very least, there SHOULD have been a kiss. So, she makes one up. It's beautiful how much she and Sandor are doing the exact same thing. It shows a similarity of world view (and is not, I don't think, a sign of shaky mental state or trauma).
It makes me wonder if/when Sansa opens up to someone about the Unkiss, if that will change her perception. Sandor has Arya to set him straight, ultimately for the better. What will become of Sansa's Unkiss, I wonder? It's going to "means something later," right?
I see that you have done that! I like it!
That's just it. Let's give a little credit to Sansa...
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Post by katie on Apr 18, 2015 16:56:03 GMT
Haha, no worries, it's not even been a whole year since I first watched "GoT", so I can relate! ;-)
Thing is, though, what if she HAD thanked him right away? Would he have reacted any differently? I'm thinking, probably not, LOL. At the very least, he probably would've given her the same "a dog doesn't need courage to chase off rats" speech, LOL. She can't win with him either!
Yeah, I wrote a mini-meta on this recently where I posited that speaking about it out loud might accomplish two things: (1) make her aware that it never happened, but also (2) make her conscious of her feelings for him. That the UnKiss is just an avenue for her to realize this. I think if she says the words out loud, she will know it isn't true, but then she will also know that there is a REASON she made it up in the first place.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 18, 2015 17:31:33 GMT
I think he was hurt and disappointed that she didn't thank him after the riot scene. What he did was epic, brave and generous and nobody gave him enough credit for it,Tyrion told him "well done,boy",as if he was a dog and had made a trick. He must be used to this treatment from the Lannisters but being ordered about by the little lord is new,he was Cersei's dog not Tyrions and I'm sure he hates taking orders from him. This is annoying for him but Sansa not thanking him,that must have stung and it shows. I gess he would have said it was nothing,that she didn't have to thank him, blah, blah blah, but he would have felt better whereas in this scene he feels awful. Before a battle most men fuck and drink, they did that in the show,but he is alone,looking at the enemy army and the city,brooding alone and contemplating the possibilty of dying,facing fire,which he hates, and not seeing her again,what's more that he means nothing to her as she didn't even thank him or look up to him with admiration,like a lady would look on a brave knight. He wants to feel what others feel, a woman smiling at him and why not, admiring him and wanting him. They guy wants to be loved,which is the most normal thing in the world,and feels lonely and forlorn instead.  |
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Post by katie on Apr 19, 2015 19:57:24 GMT
You're right, most men would spend the night before a battle, AKA what could be their last night on earth, getting in their last thrills, but what is Sandor doing? Brooding by himself in the dark on the top of Maegor's holdfast. Our poor damaged babyyyyyyyy!!!
And it was no coincidence that Sansa ended up there that night too. Some instinct (perhaps the same one that made her touch Sandor's cheek) made her keep walking up the Serpentine Steps when she was heading back to her chambers. She NEEDED to be there with him that night. They both needed that final moment together before the battle.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 19, 2015 22:08:51 GMT
Can you imagine what he felt when he saw her there,on the rooftop so near him? I bet his heart skipped a bit and he wanted to approach her,talk to her,perhaps he longed for physical contact whatever kind it was, an embrace,or a kiss?
But he didn't dare. It was wrong, she was the kings betrothed,a higborn lady far above him,perfectly beautiful and pure while he was a disfigured brute with blood on his hands.
Well, many romances are made of this (classical romances,I mean),impossible love,longing and wanting without hope. How could he not be angry and sullen? He was going to fight again like so many times before,but this was going to be a great battle,probably the worst he had had to fight in his life and in the past he had nothing to lose,no lands, no wife,etc. In that moment it was different because he was as empty-handed as always but he wanted her and that was new,because it's impossible not to hope when you are in love with someone. So he could die and that would mean he would never have her. Perhaps he wanted to survive that battle when in previous ones he wasn't afraid to die and part from a miserable life.
To make matters worse,she never thanked him for saving her,she never sang for him,and she told him to let go of her wrist when he tried to prevent her fall. And then she said he was awful and reminded him of hell;great things to say to a man the night before a battle. No wonder he told her to go away. I would have liked to know what was on his mind when she left and he stayed there alone again.
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Post by katie on Apr 19, 2015 22:26:55 GMT
I wonder if he would have made his presence known if she hadn't almost fallen. Would he have just kept quiet in the shadows? I wonder how many times he hid in the shadows near her and she never realized?
Ahhhhh stop making me feels things all the time!!!! (no don't ever stop) lololol
Probably started crying again, LOL.
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Post by sillierthings on Apr 19, 2015 23:10:25 GMT
So beautifully said! How could he continue with his nihilistic viewpoint when he loved her? How can he go into battle not caring if he died when he knows if he left her, she'd be all alone and in danger. There is that cliche about dying for love, but in a way, it's much harder to LIVE for someone, especially when your life is miserable and painful. While I know I want to see a mutual love grow up between Sandor and Sansa (and I think it is), in a way, it's more important in his development that HE loves. If she loved him first, he could deny that (such a bad liar, etc), but the fact that he loves her is not something he can deny so easily, I don't think.
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Post by eyesofmist on Apr 19, 2015 23:12:18 GMT
Poor baby, Sorry for being so sappy,dear, but sometimes it's beyond me to stop this when we talk about these two,LOL. I can really imagine both of the up there.I'm sure his heart started pounding when he saw her there,in the moonlight perhaps,in the twilight? Sandor is like a teenager although he's about twenty-seven in the first book,he is like a teenager in love for the first time,inexperienced, vulnerable and clueless, but I guess the feelings are even stronger because he is older,he is a man and has known sex and death. These feelings must be of dramatic impact for him. I guess that the older you are when love strikes you for the first time the harder it feels. It would have been fascinating to reach his mind,as he is such a complicated character and his past is so horrible,he also knows very much about political intrigues in KL. But I like the mystery too, I like how we get to know him through his actions and words and other character's narration. In fact I prefer to know characters this way rather than getting POV's,it lets the reader get to know them like in real life where we never reach a person's mind. |
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Post by katie on Apr 19, 2015 23:38:38 GMT
No need to apologize, I love it!!! ;-)
Agreed! And let's face it, it's his love for her that will greatly influence her love for him. He sees something in her that no one else does, and because of that, she sees something in HIM that no one else does. But yes, it needs to be HIS love first, otherwise why would they even have all those moments together in the first place?
That's a good point, and that could be why I find discussing him so fascinating. I actually analyze real-life people and relationships the same way I do Sandor and SanSan, lol! (I know, it gets tiring...) If we had the benefit of Sandor's POV, it would totally take all the mystery out of him and his relationship with Sansa. But GRRM nonetheless provides us with a TON of info. Sandor is one of the most interesting, well-developed secondary characters in the whole series, IMO. And yet so many people have such a one-note perception of him. What a shame. All that work on GRRM's part, and so many people don't even appreciate it.
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