Post by sillierthings on May 5, 2015 18:26:25 GMT
So, I was thinking about something Katie said, about how for D & D to have Sansa assaulted by Ramsay in season 5 would be pointless and unnecessary. I don't have such optimism for the show, but for the books, I'm feeling better and better about Sansa's fate. Call me a hopeless optimist re: the books, but in rereading some favorite scenes, I am grower more certain that Sansa will not suffer much more before finding her power.
Think of the snow castle scene:
For anyone who thinks maybe Sansa has not faced enough of a sexual threat--not only was there the forced marriage to Tyrion, and the near rape by Marillion, she has to live with Marillion for however many weeks while he stares at her, sings to her and generally threatens her while her aunt does nothing except get jealous. Sansa is shown that anyone who speaks against Marillion is punished, and she has no where to go. It is partly this worry over Marillion that makes Sansa arise before dawn and go out into the snow instead of staying in bed.
During the snow castle scene, Petyr kisses her after she dares throw a snow ball at him and question him bringing her to the Eyrie and lying to her. He makes the completely unsubtle innuendo about "coming into her castle"--which you may recall, is exactly the innuendo Tyrion used at the wedding feast:
"Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle."
Both Tyrion and Petyr use sexual innuendo framed as an assault. Come into your castle, smash your portcullis and your gates. A child's game but also suggesting assault. (Compare that with Sandor's request for song, which suggests that she would have pleasure. Yes, Marillion told her he would having her "singing" but she certainly tell him that she would sing for him gladly).
Sansa is creating the the three snowballs, remembering Arya, Bran and herself, playing together. Not only does this lovely memory show that Sansa is not quite the complete Miss Priss that everyone thinks she is and that she and Arya DID love each other and play together, but it also shows us Sansa's fighting style. Even in that play fight, she had no weapons. She was not able to fight like the others, directly. Besides, she was ambushed. She did not know she was entering a battle. Could this be a parallel to the situation she finds herself in now? Ambushed by Petyr, in a dangerous situation with nothing to protect herself. When she is overtly aggressive, more like Arya perhaps, throwing a snowball at Petyr, he gets aggressive with her, acting like Marillion and kissing her. She cannot fight overtly. But the memory above shows us that when Sansa was down on her back, vulnerable, she was able to take Arya off guard and literally come out on top, rubbing snow into her hair.
Jory is the one who pulls them apart, and was it Katie who saw the parallels between Sandor and Jory. I don't know if it's the show coloring my view entirely, but could Jory be a stand in for Sandor, the other character who has significant interactions with both girls, a kind of bridge between them, perhaps? Could be reaching.
When Petyr kisses Sansa, she "wrenches" away and tells him he's supposed to kiss Lysa.
"I do. Lysa has no cause for complaint." He smiled. "I wish you could see yourself, my lady. You are so beautiful. You're crusted over with snow like some little bear cub, but your face is flushed and you can scarcely breathe. How long have you been out here? You must be very cold. Let me warm you, Sansa. Take off those gloves, give me your hands."
"I won't." He sounded almost like Marillion, the night he'd gotten so drunk at the wedding. Only this time Lothor Brune would not appear to save her; Ser Lothor was Petyr's man. "You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . . "
"Might have been," he admitted, with a rueful smile. "But you're not, are you? You are Eddard Stark's daughter, and Cat's. But I think you might be even more beautiful than your mother was, when she was your age."
"Petyr, please." Her voice sounded so weak. "Please . . . "
"A castle!"
The voice was loud, shrill, and childish. Littleflnger turned away from her. "Lord Robert." He sketched a bow. "Should you be out in the snow without your gloves?"
"Did you make the snow castle, Lord Littlefinger?"
"Alayne did most of it, my lord."
Sansa said, "It's meant to be Winterfell."
"Winterfell?" Robert was small for eight, a stick of a boy with splotchy skin and eyes that were always runny. Under one arm he clutched the threadbare cloth doll he carried everywhere.
"Winterfell is the seat of House Stark," Sansa told her husband-to-be. "The great castle of the north."
"It's not so great." The boy knelt before the gatehouse. "Look, here comes a giant to knock it down." He stood his doll in the snow and moved it jerkily. "Tromp tromp I'm a giant, I'm a giant," he chanted. "Ho ho ho, open your gates or I'll mash them and smash them." Swinging the doll by the legs, he knocked the top off one gatehouse tower and then the other.
It was more than Sansa could stand. "Robert, stop that." Instead he swung the doll again, and a foot of wall exploded. She grabbed for his hand but she caught the doll instead. There was a loud ripping sound as the thin cloth tore. Suddenly she had the doll's head
Obviously, this is either the prophecy of her slaying the giant in the snow fulfilled (it can't be) or it's foreshadowing how/why/who the giant is that she will kill. One thing is clear though, she's compared to a bear cub (and I think eyesofmist pointed this out as a "Bear and Maiden Fair" reference once), weak now but something that will grow up to be a killer. Her voice is weak when Petyr is working on her, but when the actual "giant" symbolized by Sweetrobin's doll actually trys to "smash" her gates, she rips his head off.
So maybe there will be another rape threat. Maybe Sansa will be on her back and weak, but that's when people underestimate her, and that's when she rises up and conquers. I hope.
Regardless, as anyone who loves Sansa can see and has said many times, her story must resolve with her sexual agency and bodily autonomy. For it to end any other way is a cop out and cruel. No matter what anyone may say about GRRM, he is a big, old softy romantic in many ways, and Beauty and the Beast is his favorite fairy tale. We've gotten no happy ending for any of our Beauties and Beasts yet, so why can't Sansa be the one who does have the happy ending, especially when so much of her story line centers on finding love, pleasure, family and children?
Think of the dream scene we've all read again and again
.
I love the phrase that the man watching her undress is "bigger than Tyrion had any right to be." But that man, dream-Sandor, DOES have the right to be that big. Does that mean he also has the right to be in her bed, in a way Tyrion never has? I also like the way dream-Sandor paraphrases real Sandor's words, "I'll have a song from you." Remember how that conversation ended? With Sansa saying that she would gladly sing for Sandor. So, in this dream, I choose to interpret it as Sansa WILLINGLY taking off her clothes for a man she would gladly sing for. It's not the coerced stripping she's forced to do on her wedding night.
So, on the same exact page as Sansa's erotic nightmare, she is awakened by a maid named Grisel. I only paid attention to this name because I almost named my cat Griselda, and this is a variant of that name. It's meaning?
So, the girl who tells Sansa to go meet with Petyr and her aunt has a name that can mean "dark battle," "gray fighting maid" (like the Stark colors), and "stone" (and she is now Alayne Stone). It may be just coincidence, but it fits well, doesn't it?
Literally, this line shares a page with the description of Sandor getting into Sansa's bed. Though we know Petyr does not love Lysa and is using her terribly, we also see her in this scene as a woman happily in love and sexually satisfied. Her husband is licking honey from her lips and she is eating pear--just like Sansa did a few pages prior to this. Lysa is eating honeycomb and giving Sansa advice. I'm reminded of Sansa being chastised for feeding her wolf under the table by Septa Mordane who was also eating honeycomb. Septa Mordane who told Sansa to lie back and think of her future children when in bed with her husband. Septa Mordane, whose bedroom advice Sansa rejects. As nuts as Lysa is, she give Sansa an important perspective.
Lysa has just married the first man she ever kissed, a man too lowborn for her father to consider for her hand in marriage, but a man she nonetheless loved and eventually married. Interesting that even though we know there has been no real kiss, Sansa has put Sandor into the role of the man who gave her her first kiss, a man who is too lowborn for a Stark.
Sansa is being told that a woman's pleasure is important in the bedchamber and unlike Petyr would have her believe, a marriage between an young girl and an older man doesn't work if the man is too old.
Lysa speaks lovingly of Petyr, telling Sansa he is not as "tall or strong as some," which are two of the consistent traits that Sansa wants in a husband, and we all know who is so tall and strong that she compare other men's size to him.
We also end this conversation with Lysa letting Sansa know that poison isn't dishonorable if that's what you have to do to save your child (and we know Jon was going to foster out Sweetrobin). And Sansa has that hairnet.
I'm beginning to wonder if it's not Sansa's virginity that she will go down fight for, but for her own child? I know you can see this scene as justifying Lysa's murder of Jon for the sake of Sweetrobin, but could it also show us Sansa's motivations for slaying a giant in a castle made of snow?
Have I speculated myself into fanfiction territory? Probably.
Think of the snow castle scene:
And Marillion. There is always Marillion. When he played for them at supper, the young singer often seemed to be singing directly at her. Her aunt was far from pleased. Lady Lysa doted on Marillion, and had banished two serving girls and even a page for telling lies about him.
For anyone who thinks maybe Sansa has not faced enough of a sexual threat--not only was there the forced marriage to Tyrion, and the near rape by Marillion, she has to live with Marillion for however many weeks while he stares at her, sings to her and generally threatens her while her aunt does nothing except get jealous. Sansa is shown that anyone who speaks against Marillion is punished, and she has no where to go. It is partly this worry over Marillion that makes Sansa arise before dawn and go out into the snow instead of staying in bed.
During the snow castle scene, Petyr kisses her after she dares throw a snow ball at him and question him bringing her to the Eyrie and lying to her. He makes the completely unsubtle innuendo about "coming into her castle"--which you may recall, is exactly the innuendo Tyrion used at the wedding feast:
"Come, wife, time to smash your portcullis. I want to play come-into-the-castle."
Both Tyrion and Petyr use sexual innuendo framed as an assault. Come into your castle, smash your portcullis and your gates. A child's game but also suggesting assault. (Compare that with Sandor's request for song, which suggests that she would have pleasure. Yes, Marillion told her he would having her "singing" but she certainly tell him that she would sing for him gladly).
She scooped up a handful of snow and squeezed it between her fingers. Heavy and wet, the snow packed easily. Sansa began to make snowballs, shaping and smoothing them until they were round and white and perfect. She remembered a summer's snow in Winterfell when Arya and Bran had ambushed her as she emerged from the keep one morning. They'd each had a dozen snowballs to hand, and she'd had none. Bran had been perched on the roof of the covered bridge, out of reach, but Sansa had chased Arya through the stables and around the kitchen until both of them were breathless. She might even have caught her, but she'd slipped on some ice. Her sister came back to see if she was hurt.
When she said she wasn't, Arya hit her in the face with another snowball, but Sansa grabbed her leg and pulled her down and was rubbing snow in her hair when Jory came along and pulled them apart, laughing.
When she said she wasn't, Arya hit her in the face with another snowball, but Sansa grabbed her leg and pulled her down and was rubbing snow in her hair when Jory came along and pulled them apart, laughing.
Jory is the one who pulls them apart, and was it Katie who saw the parallels between Sandor and Jory. I don't know if it's the show coloring my view entirely, but could Jory be a stand in for Sandor, the other character who has significant interactions with both girls, a kind of bridge between them, perhaps? Could be reaching.
When Petyr kisses Sansa, she "wrenches" away and tells him he's supposed to kiss Lysa.
"I do. Lysa has no cause for complaint." He smiled. "I wish you could see yourself, my lady. You are so beautiful. You're crusted over with snow like some little bear cub, but your face is flushed and you can scarcely breathe. How long have you been out here? You must be very cold. Let me warm you, Sansa. Take off those gloves, give me your hands."
"I won't." He sounded almost like Marillion, the night he'd gotten so drunk at the wedding. Only this time Lothor Brune would not appear to save her; Ser Lothor was Petyr's man. "You shouldn't kiss me. I might have been your own daughter . . . "
"Might have been," he admitted, with a rueful smile. "But you're not, are you? You are Eddard Stark's daughter, and Cat's. But I think you might be even more beautiful than your mother was, when she was your age."
"Petyr, please." Her voice sounded so weak. "Please . . . "
"A castle!"
The voice was loud, shrill, and childish. Littleflnger turned away from her. "Lord Robert." He sketched a bow. "Should you be out in the snow without your gloves?"
"Did you make the snow castle, Lord Littlefinger?"
"Alayne did most of it, my lord."
Sansa said, "It's meant to be Winterfell."
"Winterfell?" Robert was small for eight, a stick of a boy with splotchy skin and eyes that were always runny. Under one arm he clutched the threadbare cloth doll he carried everywhere.
"Winterfell is the seat of House Stark," Sansa told her husband-to-be. "The great castle of the north."
"It's not so great." The boy knelt before the gatehouse. "Look, here comes a giant to knock it down." He stood his doll in the snow and moved it jerkily. "Tromp tromp I'm a giant, I'm a giant," he chanted. "Ho ho ho, open your gates or I'll mash them and smash them." Swinging the doll by the legs, he knocked the top off one gatehouse tower and then the other.
It was more than Sansa could stand. "Robert, stop that." Instead he swung the doll again, and a foot of wall exploded. She grabbed for his hand but she caught the doll instead. There was a loud ripping sound as the thin cloth tore. Suddenly she had the doll's head
Obviously, this is either the prophecy of her slaying the giant in the snow fulfilled (it can't be) or it's foreshadowing how/why/who the giant is that she will kill. One thing is clear though, she's compared to a bear cub (and I think eyesofmist pointed this out as a "Bear and Maiden Fair" reference once), weak now but something that will grow up to be a killer. Her voice is weak when Petyr is working on her, but when the actual "giant" symbolized by Sweetrobin's doll actually trys to "smash" her gates, she rips his head off.
So maybe there will be another rape threat. Maybe Sansa will be on her back and weak, but that's when people underestimate her, and that's when she rises up and conquers. I hope.
Regardless, as anyone who loves Sansa can see and has said many times, her story must resolve with her sexual agency and bodily autonomy. For it to end any other way is a cop out and cruel. No matter what anyone may say about GRRM, he is a big, old softy romantic in many ways, and Beauty and the Beast is his favorite fairy tale. We've gotten no happy ending for any of our Beauties and Beasts yet, so why can't Sansa be the one who does have the happy ending, especially when so much of her story line centers on finding love, pleasure, family and children?
Think of the dream scene we've all read again and again
.And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. "I wish that you were Lady," she said.
I love the phrase that the man watching her undress is "bigger than Tyrion had any right to be." But that man, dream-Sandor, DOES have the right to be that big. Does that mean he also has the right to be in her bed, in a way Tyrion never has? I also like the way dream-Sandor paraphrases real Sandor's words, "I'll have a song from you." Remember how that conversation ended? With Sansa saying that she would gladly sing for Sandor. So, in this dream, I choose to interpret it as Sansa WILLINGLY taking off her clothes for a man she would gladly sing for. It's not the coerced stripping she's forced to do on her wedding night.
Come the morning, Grisel climbed up to the bedchamber to serve the lord and lady a tray of morning bread, with butter, honey, fruit, and cream. She returned to say that Alayne was wanted. Sansa was still drowsy from sleep. It took her a moment to remember that she was Alayne.
So, on the same exact page as Sansa's erotic nightmare, she is awakened by a maid named Grisel. I only paid attention to this name because I almost named my cat Griselda, and this is a variant of that name. It's meaning?
Grisel \g-ri-sel\ as a girl's name is of Old German origin, and the meaning of Grisel is "dark battle". Grisel is a variant of Griselda (Old German): also possibly "gray fighting maid" or the name may derive from the German word "gries", meaning "gravel" or "stone".
Read more at www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Grisel#3SBqEEojOAKXp1MO.99
Read more at www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/0/Grisel#3SBqEEojOAKXp1MO.99
So, the girl who tells Sansa to go meet with Petyr and her aunt has a name that can mean "dark battle," "gray fighting maid" (like the Stark colors), and "stone" (and she is now Alayne Stone). It may be just coincidence, but it fits well, doesn't it?
Lady Lysa was still abed, but Lord Petyr was up and dressed. "Your aunt wishes to speak with you," he told Sansa, as he pulled on a boot. "I've told her who you are."
Gods be good. "I . . . I thank you, my lord."
Petyr yanked on the other boot. "I've had about as much home as I can stomach. We'll leave for the Eyrie this afternoon." He kissed his lady wife and licked a smear of honey off her lips, then headed down the steps.
Sansa stood by the foot of the bed while her aunt ate a pear and studied her.
Gods be good. "I . . . I thank you, my lord."
Petyr yanked on the other boot. "I've had about as much home as I can stomach. We'll leave for the Eyrie this afternoon." He kissed his lady wife and licked a smear of honey off her lips, then headed down the steps.
Sansa stood by the foot of the bed while her aunt ate a pear and studied her.
Literally, this line shares a page with the description of Sandor getting into Sansa's bed. Though we know Petyr does not love Lysa and is using her terribly, we also see her in this scene as a woman happily in love and sexually satisfied. Her husband is licking honey from her lips and she is eating pear--just like Sansa did a few pages prior to this. Lysa is eating honeycomb and giving Sansa advice. I'm reminded of Sansa being chastised for feeding her wolf under the table by Septa Mordane who was also eating honeycomb. Septa Mordane who told Sansa to lie back and think of her future children when in bed with her husband. Septa Mordane, whose bedroom advice Sansa rejects. As nuts as Lysa is, she give Sansa an important perspective.
"You must not call me that. No word of your presence here must be allowed to reach King's Landing. I do not mean to have my son endangered." She nibbled the corner of a honeycomb. "I have kept the Vale out of this war. Our harvest has been plentiful, the mountains protect us, and the Eyrie is impregnable. Even so, it would not do to draw Lord Tywin's wroth down upon us." Lysa set the comb down and licked honey from her fingers. "You were wed to Tyrion Lannister, Petyr says. That vile dwarf."
"They made me marry him. I never wanted it."
"No more than I did," her aunt said. "Jon Arryn was no dwarf, but he was old. You may not think so to see me now, but on the day we wed I was so lovely I put your mother to shame. But all Jon desired was my father's swords, to aid his darling boys. I should have refused him, but he was such an old man, how long could he live? Half his teeth were gone, and his breath smelled like bad cheese. I cannot abide a man with foul breath. Petyr's breath is always fresh . . . he was the first man I ever kissed, you know. My father said he was too lowborn, but I knew how high he'd rise. Jon gave him the customs for Gulltown to please me, but when he increased the incomes tenfold my lord husband saw how clever he was and gave him other appointments, even brought him to King's Landing to be master of coin. That was hard, to see him every day and still be wed to that old cold man. Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children.
"They made me marry him. I never wanted it."
"No more than I did," her aunt said. "Jon Arryn was no dwarf, but he was old. You may not think so to see me now, but on the day we wed I was so lovely I put your mother to shame. But all Jon desired was my father's swords, to aid his darling boys. I should have refused him, but he was such an old man, how long could he live? Half his teeth were gone, and his breath smelled like bad cheese. I cannot abide a man with foul breath. Petyr's breath is always fresh . . . he was the first man I ever kissed, you know. My father said he was too lowborn, but I knew how high he'd rise. Jon gave him the customs for Gulltown to please me, but when he increased the incomes tenfold my lord husband saw how clever he was and gave him other appointments, even brought him to King's Landing to be master of coin. That was hard, to see him every day and still be wed to that old cold man. Jon did his duty in the bedchamber, but he could no more give me pleasure than he could give me children.
Lysa has just married the first man she ever kissed, a man too lowborn for her father to consider for her hand in marriage, but a man she nonetheless loved and eventually married. Interesting that even though we know there has been no real kiss, Sansa has put Sandor into the role of the man who gave her her first kiss, a man who is too lowborn for a Stark.
Sansa is being told that a woman's pleasure is important in the bedchamber and unlike Petyr would have her believe, a marriage between an young girl and an older man doesn't work if the man is too old.
The Blackfish was my Knight of the Gate, and since he left us the mountain clans are growing very bold. Petyr will soon set all that to rights, though. I shall make him Lord Protector of the Vale." Her aunt smiled for the first time, almost warmly. "He may not look as tall or strong as some, but he is worth more than all of them. Trust in him and do as he says."
"I shall, Aunt . . . my lady."
Lady Lysa seemed pleased by that. "I knew that boy Joffrey. He used to call my Robert cruel names, and once he slapped him with a wooden sword. A man will tell you poison is dishonorable, but a woman's honor is different. The Mother shaped us to protect our children, and our only dishonor is in failure. You'll know that, when you have a child."
"A child?" said Sansa, uncertainly.
"I shall, Aunt . . . my lady."
Lady Lysa seemed pleased by that. "I knew that boy Joffrey. He used to call my Robert cruel names, and once he slapped him with a wooden sword. A man will tell you poison is dishonorable, but a woman's honor is different. The Mother shaped us to protect our children, and our only dishonor is in failure. You'll know that, when you have a child."
"A child?" said Sansa, uncertainly.
Lysa speaks lovingly of Petyr, telling Sansa he is not as "tall or strong as some," which are two of the consistent traits that Sansa wants in a husband, and we all know who is so tall and strong that she compare other men's size to him.
We also end this conversation with Lysa letting Sansa know that poison isn't dishonorable if that's what you have to do to save your child (and we know Jon was going to foster out Sweetrobin). And Sansa has that hairnet.
I'm beginning to wonder if it's not Sansa's virginity that she will go down fight for, but for her own child? I know you can see this scene as justifying Lysa's murder of Jon for the sake of Sweetrobin, but could it also show us Sansa's motivations for slaying a giant in a castle made of snow?
Have I speculated myself into fanfiction territory? Probably
.
