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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 10, 2015 16:17:54 GMT
Why do you think so many people think Sandor is extremely agressive (not that he isn't),dangerous, abusive and not right for Sansa,that he treats her very badly and she should stay away from him, while they don't find Tyrion or Petyr so dangerous and abusive towards her?
I find them more dangerous and abusive to her than Sandor by far. What is your opinion, why do people not see that that Petyr and Tyrion are like jailers to her? They steal her freedom,they keep her prisoner, which is the worst you can do to anyone,man or woman?
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 11, 2015 10:14:23 GMT
Wrt Sandor, I think a lot of people can't see past the "rape" comment he made to Arya as he died, which was only one of many things Sandor said to goad Arya into killing him (although Sandor never used the word "rape," ofc, and it's very unlikely that that's what he meant anyway).
You all have read my analysis, so you know that I think that during the Battle of Blackwater encounter, what Sandor wanted from Sansa was not her maidenhead, but her essence, her soul in the form of a song. That's why a song is what he asked for. There was a definite sexual element to the exchange, but that is because there is a sexual subtext to Sandor's longing for Sansa in any context, sublimated in his desire for a song, but it is an inclination that he never acts on. I could not see him acting on it under any circumstances because to do so would make him as monstrous as his brother and Sandor could not live with that even if he can endure the weight of countless other sins of violence. From what he says to Arya, it's clear that consent is very important to him - "I took the bloody song, she never gave it!" Another detail that points to the importance of Sansa's consent for Sandor is how he doesn't kiss her when she closes her eyes (even though Sansa later misremembers this encounter as him having stolen a kiss from her). Sandor desires Sansa, but only with her full consent, and I think a lot of people don't understand this.
Petyr is a textbook sexual predator and one of the few characters in the books I would call a true villain. I must confess, I do not understand why anyone would want him within 10 feet of Sansa at any time, much less in a relationship with her. I am looking forward to seeing her beat him at his own game.
As far as Tyrion is concerned, I do not think he is evil or unkind to Sansa. He molests her the night of their bedding but ultimately he respects her desire to remain chaste. He doesn't get any awards for this, because it was simply the right thing to do, but I can understand (though not excuse) why he did what he did even if it was distasteful. It's attributable to Tyrion being an entitled man in spite of his disability. He, too, has privileges of dubious morality because of his status as a nobleman (emphasis on "man" - women could never force a man to sleep with them in such a fashion, no matter their relative socioeconomic position) and sometimes takes advantage of those privileges. I'm glad he chose not to this time.
He becomes something of an ally to Sansa, but he is still a Lannister and has his own agenda.
Ultimately, Sansa's only real champion is Sandor, and I would argue, Brienne as well. They are the only people with pure intentions towards her who want to protect her for reasons that have nothing to do with her claim.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 11, 2015 19:18:10 GMT
I agree with everything you say except the part of considering Tyrion Sansa's ally. It may be me,but I can only see him as her enemy. He can be nice when he likes,he is smart and funny,but he is one of the people who have her prisoner and he could have refused to marry her. She didn't want to marry him,he shouldn't have agreed to marry her himself. He married her because it suited him to get a pretty wife and a claim on Winterfell. I can't see that as being her ally,sorry. But I know I have a very bad opinion of Tyrion. I used to like him at first, in the first books but after he married Sansa against her will I disliked him a lot. When he killed Shae and Tywin that was the end of nice Tyrion for me. As for Petyr, I agree with you,he can't be worse than he already is and I hate the idea of poor Sansa trapped by that creep.  |
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 11, 2015 19:46:27 GMT
I agree with everything you say except the part of considering Tyrion Sansa's ally. It may be me,but I can only see her as her enemy. He can be nice when he likes,he is smart and funny,but he is one of the people who have her prisoner and he could have refused to marry her. She didn't want to marry him,he shouldn't have agreed to marry her himself. He married her because it suited him to get a pretty wife and a claim on Winterfell. I can't see that as being her ally,sorry. But I know I have a very bad opinion of Tyrion. I used to like him at first, in the first books but after he married Sansa against her will I disliked him a lot. When he killed Shae and Tywin that was the end of nice Tyrion for me. As for Petyr, I agree with you,he can't be worse than he already is and I hate the idea of poor Sansa trapped by that creep. You are definitely right; Tyrion is going down a dark path and I can understand why you feel the way you do about him. I can't help but hope that he will work his way out of the hole he's dug for himself by the end of the series. Actually the parallels and interaction between Tyrion and Sandor are very interesting - the cycles of abuse and violence enacted upon them and how they affect their behavior are in some cases quite similar, and despite the fact that they both suffer because of the ableism of those around them, they are in fact both ableist and hateful towards each other! A lot of this has to do with the self-loathing they deal with and how they project it on to other people. The similarities between their struggles to forge identities for themselves and the challenges they face are quite interesting to read about - here's a good bit of meta about it if you're interested: maidenpools.tumblr.com/post/110383571181/morethanprinceofcats-tw-rape-and-abuse-mentionsAnd yes, like I said in my original post, Tyrion is only an ally *of sorts*...he may want to help Sansa to some degree but he's not about to go out on a limb for her and he took advantage of her. He objectifies her and thinks of her as a prize: "I want her, he realized. I want Winterfell, yes, but I want her as well, child or woman or whatever she is. I want to comfort her. I want to hear her laugh. I want her to come to me willingly, to bring me her joys and her sorrows and her lust. His mouth twisted in a bitter smile. Yes, and I want to be tall as Jaime and as strong as Ser Gregor the Mountain too, for all the bloody good it does." She's ultimately not much more than another pawn to him, though that could change in the future. I don't foresee them interacting much for a long time, however. |
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 12, 2015 15:38:10 GMT
Like eyesofmist, I had no problem with Tyrion until he married Sansa by force, molested her, killed Shae and Tywin, and went on a rapey, drunken pity-fest in the east. While I can see how Tyrion and Sandor have definite similarities, one thing that I think is vital is shaping their decisions and their abilities to change is their positions in society. For all that Tyrion is an outsider, he is also very rich and whatever his father may think of him, he is an accepted part of a very powerful family. He acts as Hand of the King. So, why Tyrion is abused and rightly feels an outcast, in many ways, he is accepted because of his wealth the power associated with House Lannister, and I think it is difficult for Tyrion to let go of this. He feels his rights to Casterly Rock are being taken from him.
Sandor Clegane, however, is an outcast not just because of his face, but he lacks social protection. The lands and titles of House Clegane belong to Gregor. Sandor has a position at court, but he's treated as little better than a dog. He is the second son of a very new and very minor house. He is ostensibly part of the court, but still very much on the outskirts. In a way, this means it is easier for him to break free of the poisons of court, of the corrupt society that plays "the game" because he's never been a particularly powerful piece in the game anyway. From a Lannister perspective, he's little better than a pawn to use.
Sandor can break free of his role of The Hound easier than Tyrion can break free from being a Lannister, I think. Because of this, it's possible for The Hound to be laid to rest and allow Sandor Clegane to be reborn. I don't quite know if this makes sense exactly. I cannot say I feel sure about these ideas, but I feel like the social roles they play do affect how easily or well they are able to heal.
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 12, 2015 16:14:03 GMT
I think you've hit the nail on the head. Tyrion has a lot of complexes associated with his privilege, as I mentioned and as you so eloquently elaborated on. He's blind to the privileges he *does* have, even though he has been deprived of many others. It's his inability to conceive of himself separately from those privileges that holds him back, I think, and has led him to become a shadow of his former self.
Sandor, on the other hand, has literally constructed an identity for himself because he didn't have one before, beyond that of a young man tragically maimed by his brother, orphaned and alone and without any livelihood. As Tyrion clings to his privileges and the desire to be seen as a lord that is taken seriously, Sandor clings to his "Hound" persona like a second skin. It gives him a place and a purpose in life, it enables him to use the fear he inspires in others to protect himself and his charges, and it gives him a way to excuse his behavior, because as we know, underneath the Hound is a scared, emotionally stunted man who still venerates the chivalry he claims to despise.
And because Sandor has no strong ties to anyone other than Sansa, he can more readily shed this second skin when she becomes close enough to him that she can peel it back. Tyrion, on the other hand, is deeply embedded in court life and has no desire to willingly leave it, as you pointed out. He wants to have his cake and eat it too, so to speak - to be recognized as someone above the superficiality of court intrigue but still be a part of that court himself.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 12, 2015 21:57:07 GMT
But do you think Tyrion has ever shown any sort of desire to heal or change? As far as I know he has never been very self-critical. He is really entitled and has a very high opinion of himsef, far above what he really deserves from a moral point of view. What's more, he never showed any intentions to distance himself from the Lannisters, on the contrary, he felt very comfortable using the privileges being a member of such a powerful house provided him.
This is a man who thinks himself above the rest because he is smart, received a good education and enjoys the protection his name,house and wealth provide. Not only is he comfortable being a Lannister but he is happy to be the Hand of the king and expects to be admired and acclaimed for his job as a hand and as a military commander.
I don't think his disability is a reason to condone the horrible actions he has committed, that would be paternalistic and unfair towards people who have disabilities. I think they should be judged and treated like anybody else and they should never suffer discrimination due to their condition but they should not be treated in a condescending way either.
Tyrion is as entitled as ever now that he has run away from Kings Landing. Now his intention is offering his aid and advice to Dany and destroy not only his sister but his nephew Tommen two.
I don't know if I am blind to Tyrion's good qualities but really, I can't see any, apart from his intelligence and wit. He is the one to say he has a soft spot for cripples,bastards,and broken things but this is not what I have seen. He was kind when he designed a saddle for Bran and he gave good advice to Jon,I'll give him that, but he was awfully abusive towards Shae (and ultimately murderous),had a singer killed without a blink, treated Sandor like rubbish,threatened his sister and nephew, etc.
I never saw him trying to improve the living conditions of the commoners while he was the Hand, he only wanted glory and recognition and expected this from the people he never did anything to protect, because he won the battle of Blackwater and defended the city for the Lannisters, for the powerful,not for the common folk. He did nothing for the common folk or for the unprivileged.
On the other hand, we have Sansa,who has kindness and empathy for everyone, from Dontos to Tyrion himself, a girl who wanted people to love her and not fear her when she thought what kind of a queen she wanted to be. Compared to her, and she is only a girl, Tyrion is an egocentric of enormous proportions.
Sorry I am saying this about Tyrion, because I don't know if you like the character, maidenpools, I don't want to rant against him, but I really think he is all these things. And you may find it surprising but I started this series liking Tyrion and loving his chapters while I hated Sandor with a passion and disliked Sansa quite a lot,with time I evolved to my current view, in which I love Sandor and Sansa and dislike Tyrion for his actions, not for the kind of man he is.
I tend to like people and characters depending on their actions rather than due to their appearances or charm. Some people are nice but their actionas are awful and Tyrion is like this, others are not charming or funny,they don't find it easy to deal with people, to make people like them, but their actions may be better. Actions speak louder than words.
During the bread riot, only one of the present looked for poor Sansa,the others run away as fast as they could and forgot about her or dismissed her like Joff did. From then on,it was clear for me as regards Sansa,that there is only one person apart from her family who genuinelly cares for her, and who would go to any lengths to help her. Actions and not words are what matter. Tyrion is clever and articulate, in his chapters he makes a good job at putting himself in a better light,but if we look at his actions, what can we see?
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 12, 2015 23:27:50 GMT
Far be it from me to dismiss the things Tyrion has done - it is his complexity that makes him interesting. I like him as a character but not as a person, if that makes sense.
I don't actually disagree with anything you said, and would like to add that, furthermore, Tyrion didn't care at all about Sansa's well-being during the bread riot, and that chapter was from his POV. He thinks to himself that he needs to make sure she's safe so that he can trade her for Jaime, but he doesn't care for her personally at all. He's very opportunistic and sometimes demands a respect from other people that he's not willing to give on his own behalf, as I discussed earlier.
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Post by eyesofmist on Feb 12, 2015 23:39:29 GMT
Oh, yes, I understand that, yes, of course we can like a character while we don't like the kind of person this character is. The problem is that I feel that Martin makes too much of an effort to make us like Tyrion,and that is the best way for me to stop liking a character I used to like a lot in the first three books. For example, I like Theon as a character and also Tywin, as horrible a person as he is, but I'm sick of Tyrion. I don't know if I may find him interesting again, but for the moment, if he went beyond the wall like Benjen and we never had news from him again, I would't care one bit.  |
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Post by sillierthings on Feb 13, 2015 16:18:49 GMT
I am in total agreement with you. I like a lot of the "bad" characters. I find Theon to be remarkably sympathetic despite the fact that I hate the things he has done. I don't even mind reading about Ramsey and Roose Bolton. However, Tyrion gets under my skin. Is it because he does horrific things and then justifies himself right and left. I swear, ADWD could be subtitled Tyrion's Pity Party. As you say, if we never heard from Tyrion again, no great loss! I know that is a very unpopular opinion, however.
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maidenpools
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Post by maidenpools on Feb 13, 2015 16:45:38 GMT
I get where you all are coming from. I really dislike it when people don't own up to their actions and Tyrion definitely hasn't done that.
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