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Post by katie on Mar 12, 2015 4:18:49 GMT
I'm curious -- I know eyesofmist has said she no longer watches the show, and sillierthings seems pretty resigned not to, LOL... What about everyone else?
I ask because, against my better judgment, I will be watching. Albeit through my fingers and squinted eyes... ;-) So just wanted to know if anyone else is planning to.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 12, 2015 18:20:25 GMT
Well, I say I will not to watch it, but I will be forced to at some point because my husband wants to see it. He's taken to watching season 4 on the t.v. in our bedroom, so I'll be in a beautiful doze and then I hear Littlefinger's voice. That is not a nice way to wake up  . Though he's not going to be happy with the new season since Bran is his favorite! At a certain point in Season 3, I found myself getting genuinely upset--like really angry and scared that what was happening on the show was somehow foreshadowing the books. It seems silly (but hey! That's my name), but I stopped watching for a while because I was getting really overwrought and angrily ranting during the episode..."Well in the books...!!!!". So, I stopped watching and just watched a few scenes on YouTube. Now, though, I think I'm a lot calmer about the situation. At this point, everything on the show is just so out of character and misses the point of the books, that I finally feel that I can separate the two. However, that was hard because like you, I saw the show first. I saw season 1 and part of season 2 before I picked up the books (I started working evenings and nights and hubby would watch episodes without me). So, I still feel drawn to the show even though I don't want to be, you know? I will also confess, that I find a certain pleasure in ranting about the show. I know. I know. Nobody wants to hear that, but I can't help it! I don't think I'll hate watch the new season, but I'll probably still keep half an eye on it. Like I said in one of my tumblr posts, my hope is that it's so outrageously bad that it will be like a beautiful train wreck instead of just a boring hour of swords, boobies and Peter Dinklage posturing and being all noble and crap. |
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Post by katie on Mar 12, 2015 18:56:30 GMT
Yeah, like I've said a few times on Tumblr, what makes me angry is the fact that the GoT-canon will become more widely accepted than the ASOIAF-canon, which is really frustrating considering the direction they have taken some of the characters. The Hound will always be associated with (and reduced to) "every fucking chicken" memes, and Sansa will always be looked at as a boring crybaby-turned-vengeful vixen and that her "relationship" with LF is somehow "badass". No one will be the wiser because more people will watch the show than will even glance at a page of any of the books. :-(
But if it hadn't been for the show, I wouldn't be here right now. Like you say, I first became emotionally invested in these characters because of the show, and I kinda sorta still wanna know what happens... for better or worse. Of course I am expecting the worst... ;-P
Though I think that was D&D's plan from the beginning. Lure everyone (including GRRM) in with a really great Season 1 -- even though there were certain "red flags" even then -- and once they're hooked, just start dismantling it piece by piece. It's like a really bad abusive relationship where you meet a guy who you think is gonna make all your dreams come true, and then once you're good and emotionally attached, the systematic abuse begins. Okay, maybe a bad example, but it is true... I hate what the show has become but I will still go back to it anyway, bruises and all! ;-P
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 12, 2015 19:39:36 GMT
I can understand you very well because I liked season one, I think it was a good adaptation in genreal terms. There was rubbish too,like deleting interesting storylines due to "lack of time" and then making up chracters that made no sense at all, like Ross. If there wasn't enough time, why did they waste it with that nonsense?
But there were good things in season one and I liked it. It was more difficult for me to put up with the nonsense because I had already read the first three books and loved them inmensely before the show started. I read that incredible prologue and got hooked and continued reading book after book without stopping until I finished the first three. Without stopping because I didn't read any other books in between and it took me a short while to read all of them. I couldn't put them down.
I couldn't stand season two though, that was too much for me because I got disappointed,angry and even upset when I saw what they were doing. This was because they made me doubt what I had read,I felt like sillier-things.They made me doubt myself, my own reading skills and I started to think that the characters I considered important were not important at all. The ones I sympathized with were impossible to recognize in the show. What I thought was goin to happen would never happen because in the show it didn't seem it would. I felt confused and the show spoiled the fun for me. For instance, that idiotic chicken episode, I refuse to see that,not even on a youtube video. Sandor is not a clown,he is scary as hell, smart and dangerous, not a joke with horrible teeth and horrible manners who never changes his breeches and seems quite stupid. Arya is the smart one and he is the giant dumbass brute. What? No,thank you, don't ruin the character for me, please D&D. I won't let you.
What I hate the most is that I think Rory could have been a great Sandor. The guy is a good actors and read the books,he said he did. George chose him for a reason,because he understood the character and was able to bring him to life on the screen.
I'm not so sure Sophie is such a good casting choice. Rory is great but not her,IMHO. She looks the part, or rather she looked the part when the series started because she is losing that delicacy Sansa has or should have. Perhaps it's not her fault but the writers.Sansa and Sandor's dynamics is about subltlety and most of what they feel is internalized, so it's difficult to convey that on the screen, I get it. They are doing it horribly, I think.
And what about not showing Bran in the next season. Gosh! He is so important to the story. Leaving him out is misleading and they will make the watchers think what matters is the game of thrones when George is showing us just the opposite, that the game of thrones is a game where everyone loses,every time. You can win a couple of battles but in the end you will lose the war. This game is a mirror of life itself where power, wealth and greed may seem all that matters but they are nothing in the end. Only family, friends, compassion and love are worth the effort. Spirituality and art are important, Sansa's songs are important because they are her heritage and everyone's memory from their ancestors and everything they knew. Most characters despise her,like most readers and they forget this novels are named after a song,a song of ice and fire. Songs are important but many readers are reading the series wrong,I'm afraid,and the show is not helping in this respect. It's a pity.
They are making a lot of money and the show is a success from the economic point of view,so there will be no solution for this. If they had lost watchers after the first season when they starting deviating so much from the orginal they would have come back to the faithful adaptation they did at first. There is no hope now.
I don't think it's all that terrible, though,because the show will be forgotten. Unless they are incredibly good, shows are consumed and that's all,but the books will stay. The first book was written a more than a decade ago, wasn't it? And the books will be read after the show ends. I guess this is what Martin thinks, because otherwise he would be weeping now and he seems quite happy. I head him say that the books were his and the show was D&D's,making it clear that they are two different things.
I hope they are very different.LOL
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Post by katie on Mar 12, 2015 20:18:23 GMT
EXACTLY. The whole REASON they decided to make a TV series instead of a movie is so they COULD have all that extra time to address all the various plots and subplots and diverse characters... AND THEY STILL GOT IT WRONG!!! Instead of having that amazing post-Tourney scene between Sansa and Sandor, no let's use that time instead for hookers and LF & Varys bantering. YAWN.
That's one of the "red flags" I mentioned in my post above. Even though Season 1 was very strong, there were still some indicators present as to how the show would be going in proceeding seasons, such as (a) omitting Sansa & Sandor's post-Tourney convo and giving that dialogue to LF; (b) our first intro to Tyrion getting drunk and banging whores (which D&D said they chose to do because they felt that "summed up his character"... Really? REALLY??); and (c) as we just mentioned, introducing new characters in a series already LOUSY with characters and focusing more on them than the ones that already existed!! I bet you anything Ros had more screen time in Season 1 than Sandor did!
Same. I read all 5 books in 3 months, LOL.
Based on his audition tape, I have to agree. You mention before that you don't find show-Sandor scary, but I think he was perfectly capable of pulling it off. During the "trial" with the BwB in Season 3, I found him to be quite sinister and intimidating, moreso than he had ever been. So yes, I think RMC could have done Sandor justice if D&D would have let him.
sillierthings and I have had many private chitty-chats about Ms Turner, LOL. Suffice it to say, I don't think she has a CLUE about Sansa. She "claims" to have read the books -- or at the very least to have read Sansa's chapters -- and yet when we interviewed her last year (during season 4), she outright admitted that she is "not familiar with the books." Gee, ya think? Even if she has just read Sansa's chapters, THAT IS NOT ENOUGH. There are a ton of things that happen to Sansa that DO NOT OCCUR IN HER ACTUAL CHAPTERS. You cannot get the whole picture if you just limit yourself to one character's chapters. But I feel the same about Sophie as I do about Rory -- if she had the right tools, she could be great. But not having read the books and therefore having a very limited perception (i.e. D&D's) of Sansa severely limits her performance.
And that was probably the BIGGEST red flag of all when it comes to the TV show -- that they decided to title it "Game of Thrones". That right there shows you where D&D's priorities lie...
It's true, in many ways, the show just re-enforces and rewards those who don't fully understand the material. And D&D are their Patron Saint.
Exactly, that's why I think that was their plan all along. Give people a great Season 1 and hook them in, and then after that give them the middle finger and say "fuck you, we're gonna go whatever we want with it now!" D&D are basically con artists.
20 years! First book was published in 1996, though you can be sure he was living with these stories and characters for much longer. I can't imagine GRRM is any happier with what D&D is doing to his beloved characters than we are. I'm sure the money is lovely, but these characters are his BABIES. He even said he had to skip writing the Red Wedding and go back to it last because it was so hard for him to write. This is a man who is definitely invested in his creations (he would have to be to devote so much time and detail to them). But he's more or less contractually obligated to toe the line for now, while the show is still running. But I would be VERY interested in hearing what he REALLY thinks once the show ends!
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 12, 2015 20:53:04 GMT
Yes,Katie, I would love to hear what George really thinks. If I knew he doesn't agree with what they are doing to his characters I would feel much better and wounldn't worry about the show. If it wasn't for the internet pehaps I would have given up on the books because of the show. On the internet I met people who read the books wrong,but also other people like you,guys,that reassured me in my belief that what I understood when I read that books was right and the show is just fanfiction for dudebros,but the superficial type of dudebros, I mean. I don't mean all guys are like that, only that they are writing the series for that type of guys who think Sansa is dull, Sandor is dead or what's worse, George has wasted loads of references to him and so many pages in Briennes POV to forget him forever on the QI,where many readers haven't even recognized him as the gravedigger.
By the way, do you think the gavedigger will appear on the show?
I can't tell you how much I hate that fight with Brienne. GRRRR. I love Brienne and I love Sandor and that stupid fight makes no sense,guys. And then there is no time for Bran, how could there be? Grrrr.
What about that interview with Sophie? What was it like? What were you impressions?
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 12, 2015 22:04:07 GMT
It's that doubt that creeps in that I cannot stand. You think to yourself that these people were given the go ahead by the author himself. They know the ending, and THIS is what they come up with? Have I just totally missed something in the books that would lead me to the conclusions these guys are making? That's why I am so grateful to chat with you ladies. It makes me believe that I am reading GRRM correctly.
I'm shocked by how many people still like the show. When I watch, it's not that I'm just cringing in horror at everything that comes out of Sansa's mouth, but it's also just a boring show at this point. It's no secret that I find Bran and Sansa's stories far more interesting and magical than the tired old plots that they trot out at King's Landing and with Danaerys. It's hard to believe that I ever liked Dany as much as I did. Now that she's tied to the politics and war mongering, it's just a yawn. She's so one note and her acting has devolved into the cool raised eyebrow and an expression that suggests she smelled something bad. I don't blame the actress--I used to find her very charming, but now. Ugh.
You are so right, Katie, that the fact that they chose the title "Game of Thrones" says it all, doesn't it? I think with most of the actors, given the right material, I would generally have no problem with them. They seem capable of greater things. I do find that Alfie Allen and John Bradley still manage to convey Sam and Theon to me, but even their story lines have gone wrong now. Why spend all that time with Sam and Gilly, in the whorehouse (gotta have a whorehouse!), him fretting about men going after her, when we could have them with Maester Aemon, being sent on an important mission or drinking rum and unleashing fat, pink masts? I mean, I'd rather see that than the endless parade of naked people who have absolutely no bearing on the plot. There's not emotion, no sensuality in the nudity either. It like a butcher's shop full of raw meat. I might not mind if it were spiced up a little and cooked to my taste, if you know what I mean, but good Lord, I'm tired of contorting women moaning in the background while actors ramble. Not original, I know, but they get rid of all the sensual scenes and dialogue in the book that might convey character development and replace them with Ros flashing the fig at Theon? Why?
The fight between Brienne and Sandor makes me sick to my stomach. I love both of those characters so much, and they were just butchered beyond all recognition. It's so sad, too, when you hear the Hound's words being put into all the other characters mouths. Clearly his line ARE important (or at the very least "cool"), so why not let HIM say them? I don't get why they have taken the fire out of one of the very best characters in the entire books to prop up others like Littlefinger and Daario?
Sorry. I am rambling on, but yes, I agree with everything you both have said.
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Post by katie on Mar 12, 2015 22:59:08 GMT
As a writer myself, I can guarantee you that he is not happy about it. Imagine spending almost your whole life delicately crafting a story and characters, then some d-bags come along and make a fanfiction version of a TV show out of it... Now imagine a fan of the show who has never read the books comes up to you and starts ranting (good or bad) about something that happens in the show but never happens in the books?? I dunno about you (or GRRM), but I would be tempted to punch that person, hahaha. It has to be extremely frustrating.
I doubt it. For one thing, D&D have confirmed that RMC will not appear in Season 5. They have NOT confirmed that the Hound is dead, but at any rate, if they do ever bring him back, somehow I doubt the QI/Gravedigger will ever be addressed.
I admit, the first time I watched the show, I was excited for it, LOL (no judgies, I didn't know any better!). But yeah, now that I am "educated", it really was a prime example of D&D's "fanboy" mentality.
I wasn't there for them (there were two last year), but my impressions from watching them later was that she's more interested in the The Three P's of being on a hugely successful TV show... Premieres, Parties, and Pretty dresses. She admitted that she didn't take her initial audition seriously at all, that is was just a "big joke". I'm sure all the other girls who actually put a lot of work into their audition feel really great about that.... ;-P So, yeah, I think she's perfectly content to just do what D&D tell her to do and look pretty.
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 12, 2015 23:03:25 GMT
I agree with both of you that the name Game of thrones says it all and I hated what it meant before I was sure this is not what Martin thinks, I mean, not the way people think he means it. It is a game,I get it, but not because it is important, but because it ISN'T. It is just a GAME, a game everybody loses in the end, like sillier-things avatar shows. And they keep saying Sansa is learning to play the game from a master like Littlefinger? How cool! They don't get anything.
When I read the chapter where Robert and Ned went to the crypts in Winterfell,George compared the Stark king's tombs to thrones and said their swords had rusted out until they were only stains on the stone. Robert was already fat and aging too soon and was still pining for a girl who never wanted him after so many years, a dead girl who loved a beautiful prince who also died. I really don't know what it takes for people to realize what is the real message in this story. This is where the game "leads". How cool! What matters is what you do with your life, like Ygritte said. Everyone will die, but until then we must live, but live life to the fullest, not play games.
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Post by katie on Mar 12, 2015 23:11:21 GMT
So funny, we just interviewed Tobias Menzies, and after we were done, I started ranting to our tech guy about GoT with TM standing, like, 5 feet away! Ha! (He was talking to our host, so he wasn't paying attention to me...) Anyway, it got brought up because said tech guy was wondering what was up with Edmure in the show at this point; he watches the show but hasn't read the books, but all his friends have, so he's sort of familiar with certain elements. Anyway, we were talking about Lady Stoneheart, and I had to explain to him that that IMDb thing was a hoax. And he says, "But she HAS to be on the show! Otherwise, what's Brienne gonna do??" And I said, "EXACTLY!!!" Again, had to explain how the show he's been watching the past 2-3 years is basically fanfiction at this point. They are LITERALLY making shit up now.
Part of me wonders what would have happened if GRRM had taken this to European producers instead of American ones. I feel like a British production would have been much more careful and faithful... What do you think?
Hahahaha! We were talking about this at the SanSan meet-up a few weeks ago. You're SO right, I am so sick of Dany/Emilia's one-note delivery. I've always been pretty bored with Dany anyway, in the books AND on the show, so I could care less either way.
'Tis a mystery indeed. Not to mention the fact that (sorry, Brienne) the Hound would NOT have lost that fight. Even with that bite wound. Puleeeeze... And yeah, completely decimating his character and then giving all his lines to other characters is just a total slap in the face. Not just to his fans, but to Sandor AND to RMC.
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Post by katie on Mar 12, 2015 23:17:20 GMT
Reading the books and even watching the show, primarily when it comes to Cersei, I always find myself wondering.... WHY do they want to rule this place so much in the first place?? What would they REALLY get out it?? What do they really "win" if they win the game of thrones? The whole game just seems really pointless to me, and it seems that was GRRM's intention anyway...
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 12, 2015 23:21:57 GMT
How disappointing! She is an airhead it seems,Sansa isn't but she is. Perhaps she couldn't pull out the character properly because she has no depth herself, how can she show she has what she has not. Interesting characters can only be fleshed out by actors who have it in them to convey there's something in their heads. Perhaps D&D gave up on SanSan because you need two in this pair and only one could give depth to his character.
It could have been a very compelling story,they could have made it less introspective for the show and make it work,but not with this girl. If Maysie had been given the part it would have been different. At least she takes things seriously enough.
Looking good is not enough but I guess this is what girls think because only hot women get parts on Tv and movies. What can they think then? That's what they see.
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Post by katie on Mar 12, 2015 23:33:51 GMT
Well, here's the thing...
(A) She openly admits to being into older men, so she probably would have had no problem whatsoever with a REAL SanSan storyline. Unfortunately, that also means she doesn't have a problem with the Sansa/LF fuckery...
(B) Back when she & RMC were interacting with each other on-screen in the first two seasons, she appeared to be very aware of "SanSan" and seemed to encourage it. She even said in a Rolling Stone interview that even though she doesn't "see them together romantically", she thinks they have a "beautiful relationship" and hoped to see it explored further in the future.
So, I dunno, she may have just been paying lip service to the fans, like she's doing with the creepy Sansa/LF shippers right now. Whatever is "hot" at the moment, she seems to pander to. So, if next season, Sandor showed up again and started up an actual romance with Sansa, she'd probably be publicly cooing about that too. At least that is the impression I get.
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 12, 2015 23:47:39 GMT
She may be into older men or say she is but SanSan is complicated, it has nuances and I don't know if she can pull that off. I she says she doesn't see them romantically she doesn't get Sansa, so how can she play her role the right way?
Whe they made the HP films Rowling told Alan Rickman Snape's story because she wanted him to play the character knowing what he really was like. And D&D prefer the actos not to read the books so that they can go on and on with their fanfiction. But Nathalie Dormer and Sibel Kekilly saw inconsistencies in their characters, and said so. They are good actresses,I saw Sibel in Against the Wall and that was a great film. They made her do incredibly stupid things with her character. Total BS.
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Post by katie on Mar 13, 2015 0:00:33 GMT
Agreed, but like I said, if she was given the correct tools and had better people guiding her, I think she probably would be able to pull it off. But if D&D are actively discouraging actors from reading the books and imposing their own interpretation, then it's little wonder that she has such a flimsy understanding of the dynamic.
Yes, and Maisie Williams has said she won't read the books until the series is over because she doesn't want to get "confused" (i.e. doesn't want to have to get into creative arguments with D&D, LOL), but she is another one I am very curious to hear from once the series is over and she HAS read the books. What will she think about what D&D did to HER character?
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. Though he's not going to be happy with the new season since Bran is his favorite!
