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Post by sillierthings on Mar 14, 2015 3:47:09 GMT
Eyesofmist, you will make me hyperventilate! Nooooo! I cannot believe GRRM would troll that hard. I cannot. Or rather, maybe he was trolling the publishers with that proposal letter and then when they bought into that hokey bunch of fantasy crap, he rubbed his hands together gleefully and thought "Got 'em! Now I'll write what I WANT to write!"
There are too many layers, too many clues, and I love chatting with you all trying to piece it all together.
On the show, I'm sorry to say that your speculations seem as likely as anything at this point. I mean, NO BRAN!!! But yes, I'm sure Tyrion will get the hot chick and the dragons because he is the hero!!! Brave Lord Tyrion! He shall sit upon the iron throne with his lady Danaerys ruling by his side. Barf.
If we are wrong, well, sillierthings IS my alter-ego, though you guys know my real name, and eyesofmist...I'm afraid you know too much about me. If we are wrong we must swear a pact to delete our blogs and swear to never reveal our true identities to anyone else. LOL.
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Post by katie on Mar 14, 2015 4:06:07 GMT
LOL, I was actually thinking to myself the other day, "I wonder how many of my Tumblr posts I will have to delete once TWoW is released?" ;-)
Hopefully not too many! You ladies are smart in being incognito, but I have to own up to my fuckery, LOL.
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 14, 2015 19:50:35 GMT
Sillier-things, your secret is safe with me, don't worry! And I trust you because we have a ladies' deal not to reaveal our real identities in case the worst happens. Sorry Kate, but you will have to borrow that Hound's helm if all this shit happens. ( )LOL Kate, you are like Ned, too honest and this is not a good idea in Westeros. We'll have to pray to all the gods that George doesn't turn into a troll for spending too much time with D&D.
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Post by katie on Mar 14, 2015 20:12:52 GMT
No joke, I relate to Ned deeeeply. ;-)
Or Elio & Linda, tbh... Seriously, GRRM needs to stop hanging around so many anti-SanSan people. Maybe that's why he got so excited and brought it up himself in that one interview where he revealed that "there's something there". LOL. Like, "OH GOOD, people DID notice and they ARE into it!"
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 14, 2015 22:55:56 GMT
I love Ned too,from the start and until the end. Once at Westeros.org I said he is the type of man I would be proud to have as my husband,my father or my son. That's how much I love Ned.
Linda is worse than D&D together, I never believed there could be mysogynistic women brought up in a Western country until I read her posts. That woman is like Cersei come to life. I really can't understand how George can hang around those people. This makes me doubt myself as much as the series because the impression I have of him and his ideas has nothing to do with these people, they are complete opposites.
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Post by katie on Mar 15, 2015 0:56:23 GMT
Oh gosh yes. Sean Bean also bears a striking resemblance to my first luuuuv, so that only enhances Ned's appeal for me. ;-)
It really worries me that these people have so much influence over him. We can only hope, though, that GRRM is just going to do what he wants regardless of what they think. (And it's possible he already has, if the recent speculation about Sansa's "controversial" chapter is true, which seems to have surprised even L&E...)
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 15, 2015 2:01:53 GMT
Wow! Lucky you if your first luv looked like Sean Bean because he is absolutely gorgeous,even now that he is over 50. Not so much as Ned with that wig,LOL, but always handsome. I loved Ned in the books and he was plain,but Sean's looks are certainly a bonus. I would never complain about that,hehe.
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Post by katie on Mar 15, 2015 9:06:11 GMT
LOL, well, he didn't have that "movie star" quality that Sean Bean has... So, like, if Sean Bean had been born & raised in South Florida and never became a movie star, LOL. (But yes, he was handsome. And A LOT older than me, which is why I don't have a problem with the older man/younger girl dynamic, heehee)
Since I watched the show first, Sean Bean's Ned is pretty much my head-canon for Ned in general, but I think that if I had read the books first, I would have considered that casting perfect!
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 15, 2015 12:50:28 GMT
My fist love was 28 and I was nineteen, nineteen but absolutely naive while he was just the opposite,very self-confident and extrovert,much more mature than I was. I never felt intimidated by the age difference and it was a beautiful experiece I'll never forget.
It isn't so much how old you are but how mature you are,I think. I have no problem with their age difference because what matters to me is the writer's intention and it's obvious he doesn't see their relationship as something creepy or with a paedo vibe. Sandor is not dirty as regards Sansan,he is honest,open and never makes her feel uncomfortable under his gaze. And there is something else,he checks himself,he says he will have that one day, which means he will wait.
One of the reasons why she didn't leave with him is that the year-gap Martin had planned was deleted and she was too young for them to leave together. The can't be together because they already feel too much for each other when the BoBW happens. He could have taken her to her family but he would have been killed at the RW and she would have been killed or caputured by the Freys. If they had arrived late they would be roaming the Riverlands together and things would have gone too fast for them. Plotwise, it would have been a mistake and I guess this is why George made her stay and put Dontos in her way as another option. However,Dontos seems a dumb option when you compare it with the Hound. If I had been in her shoes I wouldn't have trusted Dontos' capacity to take me away because he is a drunkard who can't even take care of himself whereas Sandor has proved to be very capable and resourceful. I think I would never have stayed with the Lannisters,not one minute longer, and couldn't tell if Stannis would win or what would have happened if he did.
I think Sansa didn't go for reasons related to the plot and Sandor's derailed state was an excuse to make it believable that she didn't go with him. If they went away together and weren't killed at the Red Wedding we would have seen something similar to what happened to Dany with Drogo. It wouldn't have been interesting to tell the same story twice,so their stories have similarities but will play out differently.
I can see why people may feel uncomfortable with they idea of Rory and Sophy playing two people who are involved romantically because I have a daughter myself and I would hate the idea of a grown man looking at her that way. I have thought of what Ned and Cat's reaction would have been if they'd ever known what the notourious Hound feels for their Sansa and how shocked they'd be if they ever knew she is attracted to him as well. It makes me laugh,they would be outraged, as I would if I were them, LOL. Come on,second son, minor house,a brute,that face, so big and violent. What could be worse? Well, Joff was much worse, Tyrion, Littefinger and also Harry the Heir, who is already a womanizer at his age. Sandor seems the worst option but what makes this so compelling is that he IS NOT. Appearances are deceiving,this is what this love story is telling us,it is a mistake to judge a book by its cover. However,the cover is important, especially on screen and Rory looks wrong for Sophy's Sansa,perhaps worse than Peter D or Aiden G, who are his age. I understand this, people can't help translating this to their own experiences in life and it's very difficult for them to look past this age difference.
I had never thought about it, but what you said about why people can stomach when Aiden kisses Sophy but thinking of Rory-Sandor kissing her makes them squirm is very interesting. I think I can see why this may happen to some people. If it's wrong and everybody thinks it's wrong, it doesn't make them feel so uncomfortable. What you said about changing the actresses to play a character at different ages seemed weird to me at first,I mean the thinking process in people's minds, because the character is still the age he/she is, but I can see you point. It's stupid if we stop to think,but our minds may accept it more easily if we see a woman and not a girl making up with the grown man and we can't go back in our minds and remember that same girl as a kid next to the same already grown man.
However, Rory and Sophie don't need to make out beacause the unkiss is only on Sansa's mind and even if they shot a sort of flashback scene containing the memory she has of kissing him, this could be done very subty without them really locking lips. It wouldn't be so terrible either because it would be a girl's fantasy involving an older man who never made inappropriate moves towards her.It would be acceptable this way and who knows what may happen in the future. I don't think a sexy scene will be necessary between them,fading in black may do because their story is not about the sex, it's true love we are talking about here. They can leave the sex scenes scenes for irrelevant characters,which is what they've been doing since the beginning.
I would like to ask D&D why they deleted SanSan,just to get to know if they tried but it didn't work and the scenes looked awful or if they don't like this story because of the age difference, what the actors look like or whatever. Just because of curiosity.
There's something else that makes me wonder. It seems Rory was to take off his tunic and appear topless in a scene with Maisie, when she helped him with his wound, I guess, so he worked out and so on, but when they were about to shoot it they told him that they had changed their minds and he was to keep his shirt on, he joked about the beers ha hadn't all for nothing and so on. But the question is why? Maisie and Rory have the chemistry Sophy and Rory have lacked so far on screen and, as sillier-things has said, if you didn't know better you could think their two characters had some sort of romantic vibe going on between them while watching that scene. Is this why they preferred not to make him appear shirtless while she treated his wound?
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 15, 2015 17:36:59 GMT
I wondered about the decision to keep the shirt on Rory. I know other people rightly said that in keeping shirt on, he seemed more childlike and defeated--that big shirt hanging off of him gave him a certain vulnerability. I think they are right, but is that really why the decision was made? Honestly, even Beric Dondarrion who is supposed to look like a nightmare in the books got to chat with Arya with his shirt opened all sexy down the front. I did wonder if they were trying to lessen what could have been perceived as a romantic moment by keeping him clothed. After all, it was Sandor's confessing the truth behind his scars to Sansa that started the sympathetic relationship between them and the romance. They gave that moment to Sandor and Arya. If he'd done it shirtless as well...Maisie is about 16, right? Much older than Arya in the books. I'm not saying I WANT a relationship between Arya and the Hound, but in the show, they've given far more fodder for a relationship between those two than between the Hound and Sansa.
They've stripped every bit of sexuality from The Hound's character, which is missing such a great part of him. In the books, he's dangerous and brutal, yes, but their is a passion and sensuality simmering underneath it all. Rory does what he can with the material, but I believe the Hound is supposed to have a dangerous sexuality to him. In the show, he does not. He's dirty, his teeth are blackened, he slurps and burps when he eats, he blows out snot and they keep him in a costume that does not show off his body at all. In season 1, in that Kingsguard armor, he was gorgeous. We never saw him in anything like that ever again. I don't get it. They will make characters like Ramsay and Dondarrion sexy but they won't let the Hound be sexy? Why?
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Post by katie on Mar 15, 2015 22:23:41 GMT
Age ain't nuthin' but a number! Heehee! I've always gotten along better with people older than me. And I've only ever dated guys 5, 15, 20 years older than me, LOL. I dunno if that has to do so much with MY maturity level as theirs?? LOL...
Exactly, of all the men in Sansa's life, he's the only one that (a) doesn't make her feel creeped out, and (b) doesn't do anything to MAKE her feel creeped out. Even when he does make sexual innuendos (like on the Serpentine Steps), it doesn't seem to faze her. Let's also not forget that he has, on three separate occasions, seen her in various states of undress (first when he pulls her out of bed and she's only wearing a thin shift; second when he is in her bedchambers as she is dressing to meet the king in the yard; and third that same chapter when Joffrey has her stripped). She never seems to be uncomfortable with him seeing her in a vulnerable state.
Dontos, I think, was meant to be a red herring. Not just for Sansa but for the reader too. I think GRRM deliberately placed him there to make both us and Sansa think that this was her "true knight" that she prayed for. But, of course, he is not really. I think most of the men in Sansa's life serve this purpose -- they are all just distractions from the truth. But sooner or later, Sansa is going to figure it all out... that the person who occupies her thoughts and fantasies the most is Sandor Clegane.
As for the BoBW, one of the reasons it's so frustrating that Sansa DIDN'T go with Sandor in the TV show version is because (a) she had no other pre-existing options since they had cut the Dontos storyline from that season, and (b) Sandor didn't give her any reason NOT to go with him. He was little tipsy, yes, but he was gentle and caring and, above all, he MADE HIS INTENTIONS CLEAR. It's not so cut-and-dry in the books. Sansa was still counting on Dontos to come through for her, but she really didn't have the option to go with Sandor because he never really made that clear to her. It was only AFTER the fact that she realized that his intentions were. But in the moment, all she knew was that this scary, drunk, freaked out man was in her bedchamber, mere moments after Cersei had warned her that if anyone got inside the walls, they would rape the shit out of her. After I read that chapter the first time, I finally understood why she didn't go with him, and it did make sense.
Exactly, and that fits in SO WELL with Sansa's story arc because her is this girl who was so easily taken in by superficial beauty (Joffrey, Loras) but the one man who occupies her thoughts the most is the LAST month in the world that anyone -- including Sansa herself -- would have expected. She is learning to look beyond physical beauty and appreciate more of what a man has a to offer than just his looks or social status. Sor for Sansa to fall in love with someone like Sandor Clegane is SO compelling in that context!
Which, of course, the TV show completely misses the point about. Which is why I think they are going to try and jury-rig a stupid Sansa/Theon romance storyline in Season 5. Because I think show-watchers are EXPECTING Sansa to end up with someone that Sansa "should" end up with -- i.e. some handsome well-positioned fellow with a good name and closer to her age. BOOORRRRIIIINNNNGGGG.
I was told by some people who've been in the fandom longer than the show has been airing that some people actually LEFT the fandom after RMC was cast!! Like, apparently some people who had been sexually abused by older men or something took offense to it. Okay, but.... that is NOT Sandor and Sansa's dynamic! Sandor is not a sexual predator! So whether you cast a guy in his late-20s or a guy in his mid-40s, the dynamic doesn't change! And it doesn't have to, because Sandor and Sansa's relationship is NOT a sexual one (at this point). There's an underlying eroticism, yes, but it's all implied. And I think Rory and Sophie look good together on-screen, personally... I mean, they're not a "typical"-looking twosome, but that's the whole point! LOL.
Exactly. I'm glad you caught on to what I was trying to say cuz I wasn't sure if I was expressing myself clear enough, LOL.
No, you're right, they can definitely infer a sexual relationship without actually showing a sex scene. Like they did with Dany and Daario last season. They never even KISSED on-screen, and then you just have her telling him to strip off, and his does, and then cut to the next day when he's doing a Walk of Shame and she's fully-dressed again. You could easily do the same sort of thing with Sandor and Sansa. But I don't think D&D will even go there. Like, at all.
Again, I wonder why GRRM rallied so hard to get RMC cast as Sandor, especially if he has a SanSan Endgame planned. So why would he go to bat for an actor 20 years older than the character, who is already so much older than Sansa? Did he not think it would be a big deal because Sansa would also be older by the time they got together? Did he just naively not think people would have a problem with it? Or is it an indicator that SanSan is indeed not happening? (If so, we have been trolled to the extreme!!!)
It's possible. I heard that story too, and I was like awwww we could had some shirtless Hound?? LOL. But you're right, maybe they didn't want to infer anything between Sandor and Arya. I remember the scene where he catches her practicing her water-dancing by the waterfall... He wakes up and finds her gone and is frantically searching for her, then cut to the waterfall, and for a split-second, I was like, "oh no, are we gonna have some awkward bathing scene here...??" I felt creepy for thinking so, but as you both point out, Sandor's relationship with Arya had been built up so much more than his relationship with Sansa, so it probably wasn't necessarily "wrong" for me to make that assumption... Though I had never actually thought that WOULD be a possibly (Sandor+Arya) because THAT would just be TOO much!!
I dunno, I still think show-Hound is pretty sexy, LOL, in a very primal, dangerous sort of way. I'm not sure if that's simply the power of the character or RMC's portrayal (maybe a bit of both), but I find him dripping in testosterone! LOL! When I first got my mom to start watching the show, she kept referring to the Hound as "that skanky guy you like", and I would be like WHAT?? And then she'd say, "But that's okay, I get it, he is very masculine!" So yeah, he might not be much to look at, but he still gets my knickers in a situation! heehee
And yes, he definitely seemed way more "put-together" in Season 1, specifically in the first 2 episodes. Like the scene where he approaches Sansa on the kingsroad -- he's got his nice cloak on, his hair seems like he at least tried to comb it... He looked presentable! I wasn't so mad about how he looked in Seasons 3 and 4 because he was on the run and sleeping in the woods, so it would be only natural that he'd be looking a little haggard, LOL.
And yeah, I still wonder why they had him wear the KG armor for just that one episode...
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 15, 2015 22:38:43 GMT
Yes, that's true, exactly. Rory looked gorgeous in his KG armour and they only let him wear it once. Why? He also looked very attractive in the tourney scene,when he is there watching while Littlefinger tells his story to Sansa,a story he said he would kill her if she told anybody. Why the hell does Littlefinger know? What's more, he tells the story in a bloody tourney when they're surrounded by people. How stupid is this scene? But Rory looks brooding,a bit dangerous and f---ing sexy. He also looked good when he rescued Sansa from the mob, but in the next seasons he looked more unkempt,dirty and with horrible teeth he didn't have before. I can't get it, really. Is it because they didn't want to lessen Tyrions protagonism by having another man talk to Sansa and have a more suggestive relationship with her than the one Tyrion had? I'm just trying to guess why they did this. By the way, in the following pic Rory shows how to play a man longing for a girl/woman just the right way,with subtlety and withouth looking creepy: And these are examples of how Rory looked really attractive as Sandor until they decided to make him seem a joke:
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 15, 2015 23:16:00 GMT
I have some more good Rory Pics. I wouldn't kick him out bed, no no. My hunsband wouldn't approve this comment, LOL. I think he looks gorgeous here, they didn't let him tell Sansa his story but he stood there looking bloody fine: I love this one two, the Hound to the rescue: And now in the gorgeous KG armour:
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 15, 2015 23:45:37 GMT
So no, the problem is neither what Rory looks like nor his acting. The problem is these people's limitted writing abilities. If you want to make Sansan work you need buildup to make it work. It took George several books to build it up,sept by tiny step and these guys lack the patience and the skill to do that,I'm afraid.
And they are horrible at portrying anything romantic or sexy, they have a really bizarre idea of what sexy means. Because, as sillier-thigs says they show naked people walking around in a way you feel like you are at a butchers's fridge watching huge pieces of meat hanging there. You don't find meat appealing when you see it displayed like that. They are great at deleting people's sexiness to non-existence. Don't these men know anything about suggesting, insinuating and all those things?
I have rarely seen any shows in my life with fewer really sexy scenes than these one. Perhaps Brienne and Jaime in the bath because they focused on the sentiment and didn't try to make the scene sexy, when they try they ruin the effect,always.
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Post by katie on Mar 16, 2015 0:30:18 GMT
To be honest, though, he probably shouldn't have worn it at all, because if I recall correctly, Sandor NEVER wears KG armor in the books. So for him to just randomly wear it in this one scene was rather odd. He DID look great in it, but it's still weird. Heehee, yes, I referred to that in a goofy little Tumblr meme I made a while back. I also referenced in this post too, where I pointed out that I honestly believe that that scene was actually all for ARYA's benefit. Because let's be real, there was absolutely NO payoff from having Sansa know that story. It's never brought up again from her end, but it IS brought up by Arya and then later expanded on by Sandor himself. So, instead of that scene being a set-up for Sandor and Sansa's relationship like it was in the books, it was actually a set-up for ARYA's relationship with Sandor. Ugggghhhh... Yes, I love that long dolly shot of him as LF is telling his story. RMC so perfectly conveys everything about Sandor that we love in that shot -- you see hints of sadness AND anger, gentleness but danger, and that brooding intensity. It sums him up so perfectly, and he doesn't say a word or even move a muscle. Well, in those ensuing seasons, that's when he's on the lam with Arya and living in the woods, so it makes sense that he would be looking really rough. I didn't mind that so much because it was consistent with his situation. But before that, when he was still in KL, yeah, they could afford to make him look a little more put-together. And yes, IMO, he was never hotter than in the Bread Riot episode. (uuuuuuggggghhhhh *slides off seat*)
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