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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 13, 2015 8:25:35 GMT
Why do you think they gave Sandor's lines to others and downplayed SanSan to near non-existence? What's the point when people like Sandor? Show watchers like him very much. They give too much time to Bron,who is just an archetype in the books, and they don't make the most of Sandor,who is more badass and is liked by many fans. I can't understand why they did this on the show.
Is it because he has no meaning apart from Sansan and they decided to leave that out for some reason? Why do you think they don't like Sansan when they dedicate time to other pairings,including Missandei and Grey worm,or whatever his name is,that don't exist in the books?
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 13, 2015 13:44:35 GMT
It is strange that they take out the romance from Sansa's storyline (a Stark POV and therefore, presumably, more important), but will add romance where none exists. The Gray Worm/Missandei business has me scratching my head--like Dany with Jorah's unrequited love for her and Daario needs more romantic subplots in her storyline. What is the point of that?
The only positive spin I can put on it is perhaps they want the audience to be surprised when/if Sansa and Sandor get together, as in--I bet you never thought spoiled little Sansa would end up with the dirty, snotty, chicken eating Hound! Ha!
However, I kind of doubt that? Maybe they just don't like it. They kept Jorah's affection for Dany clear and he is very different from the books--just a brooding, handsome man, following the beautiful girl, rasping out "Khaleesi" with love in his eyes. Jorah lost a lot of his roughness in the show's adaptation. Maybe they think that's what has to happen to show a strong man in love and they did not want to lose the Hound as a "badass" (rolling my eyes at the thought). Or maybe because they decided that Tyrion is really the hero, and in the books, Sandor makes the unforgivable sin of hating Tyrion in no uncertain words? Obviously, they recognize there is something worthwhile in the Hound's dialogue--they keep giving it to everyone else, but they are determined to turn him into a one note joke.
What I wonder is if it's just a total misreading? They did not get the subtlety of his characterization? Or is it more sinister and they, like Tywin, see his character as just a dumb, animal killing machine?
At any rate, now that I see how important Bran is to GRRM's vision and how little respect even he has gotten on the show, I don't really think the book readers need to worry about being "spoiled." The major themes have been lost in the show format. We may get some plot points ahead of time, but really, those kinds of spoilers we could probably already guess if we are reading carefully.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 13, 2015 13:52:27 GMT
This makes sense to me, and I try not to put much thought into her assessment of the character. If RMC comes back, I'm sure she'll be talking about how hot that is if she thinks that is what everyone wants. If the actors haven't read the books, what else are they going to go by except the scripts and what they are told. It's their job. It's fine, but it's not the story I love.
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Post by katie on Mar 13, 2015 15:12:54 GMT
Honestly, I don't think D&D understand that a man and a woman can have a deep, profound connection that doesn't involve fucking. If Sansa had been older, I bet you we would have seen a lot of SanSan sexiness on the show. But as it is, RMC is in his 40s, Sophie was a child, and therefore they were at a loss. As for Sandor himself, I have meta'd/ranted about how his character arc is so inextricably connected to Sansa that if you remove that aspect, his character falls completely flat and you're left with basically Gregor Lite. Which is why I shake my head at the fanboys and dudebros who complain about SanSan -- they don't seem to understand that everything they like about the character (within the context of ASOIAF) is because of his relationship with SANSA. And the problem is, his actions in the TV show suddenly don't make very much sense and/or are very inconsistent because they HAVE neglected this CRUCIAL element to his character arc. Why he saves Sansa, why he deserts the BoBW, why he kidnaps Arya, etc, etc. I've also talked on the Tumblrs about RMC's own (very shaky) comments on SanSan, which basically boil down to, "Ummm, errrr, uhhhh, he feels bad for her cuz she's abused and bullied like he was? I guess?" This always annoys me because it's obviously NOT THE CASE. Or at least there's way more to it than that. But on the other hand, what else can he really say?? They removed all the ACTUAL reasons that Sandor is attracted to Sansa (chiefly, all their 1-on-1 convos), and so yes, if you take their relationship purely in the context of the show, it looks like he's interested in her based solely on some creepy physical attraction. So really, what other explanation could RMC come up with? He's read the books, so he KNOWS why Sandor is attracted to Sansa, but he can't very well bring up any of that stuff because it doesn't exist in the show. Thus he always squirms in his seat and has to come up with flimsy answers like this.
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Post by katie on Mar 13, 2015 15:14:45 GMT
And I have a really bad feeling they are gonna try to jimmy in a Sansa/Theon romance this season. Which will nicely parallel the Missandei/Grey Worm fuckery, if you get my drift...
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 13, 2015 15:32:29 GMT
Really? So you think they will turn Sansa into Jeyne 2.0 then? How can they change Sansa's storyline to that extent? Then Littlefinger teaching her the game of thrones will never happen in the show. This is why I can't see that show because it confuses me in a way that I hate. If they left things out I could take it but they change things,which is much worse.
My question is, why didn't they make Sandor's character disappear?.Because if SanSan will never happen his character is useless,I'm sorry to say. And how can they do away with a POV character's storyline (Sansa's) and turn her into a minor character like Jeyne?
I can't begin to say how much I hate that. I also like Theon and Jeynie together and I'd hate this. Alfie is a very good actor but this idea is crazy. I would have liked those two idiots creating their own show and not spoil Martin's ideas. Nobody would watch their show if they wrote it. They are cheating on the watchers.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 13, 2015 15:45:06 GMT
Honestly, I don't think D&D understand that a man and a woman can have a deep, profound connection that doesn't involve fucking. If Sansa had been older, I bet you we would have seen a lot of SanSan sexiness on the show. But as it is, RMC is in his 40s, Sophie was a child, and therefore they were at a loss. As for Sandor himself, I have meta'd/ranted about how his character arc is so inextricably connected to Sansa that if you remove that aspect, his character falls completely flat and you're left with basically Gregor Lite. Which is why I shake my head at the fanboys and dudebros who complain about SanSan -- they don't seem to understand that everything they like about the character (within the context of ASOIAF) is because of his relationship with SANSA. And that's really the problem isn't it? What makes Sansa and Sandor's relationship beautiful has nothing at all to do with sex (though there is attraction). Sandor really is just The Hound, a brutal killing machine without the humanity that his relationship with Sansa gives him. Without her, he is a one note trope of a mighty warrior. Without her, what is there to explore? Even if we ever do get some kind of Sansan in the show, now that Sophie Turner is older, RMC will be nearing 50 at that point. I just don't care to see that old man/young girl pairing. The dynamic hasn't been established properly, and if at the end they do jam them together, it's just not going to mean as much.
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 13, 2015 16:25:09 GMT
I had to laught when I read this but it is true,plain and simple,these two didn't know what to do with them because she was a child and their relatioship is nuanced and unusual,complicated but beautiful. I think they tried and it didn't work. do you remember that scene where Tyrion interrumpted them? Rory did look scary there,even more so when looking at Tyrion.
I think they tried but it didn't work for them so they left it altogether.
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Post by katie on Mar 13, 2015 17:14:59 GMT
I do have a bad feeling that Sansa is going to be Jeyne/FakeArya, and I have heard many people say that that is impossible because it "doesn't make sense", but honestly, when have D&D let a little thing like "sense" get in their way? It also doesn't make sense to eliminate Lady Stoneheart, because then Brienne's whole story arc dissolves, and it also doesn't make sense to eliminate Arianne and Bran, etc, etc, etc... There's a chance that Sansa might NOT be Jeyne, of course -- there's another theory that she'll be a Wyman Manderly replacement and whip up some People Pies, but even THAT is awful because that basically turns Sansa into a depraved mass murderer. The best we can possible hope for this season is that Sansa goes about her biz much like she does in the book -- keep her eyes open and her mouth shut, play LF's game (or at least make him believe she is), and sit back and wait for the bad guys self-destruct on their own before reclaiming her home. "Hands clean." I have thought about this too -- why even have him on the show AT ALL? And then why tease us with those precious few moments with Sansa? I think it's because of Arya. I think, like most people who have a very superficial perception of the books, D&D probably thought the Hound & Arya chapters were like some adorable/badass 'Paper Moon' reenactment, so they kept Sandor around specifically for that reason. Show-Sandor's key relationship is with Arya, not Sansa, which is made clear by the fact that it's HER that he opens up to about his burns. So basically Sandor's entire existence in the first 2 seasons were just a build-up for his wacky adventures with Arya. It personally wouldn't bother me, but I know it would bother a majority of fans, which is why it probably won't happen (again, though, why would D&D let that stop them when they clearly don't care about what the fans want/like?). It makes one wonder, though, why GRRM lobbied so hard to get RMC cast in the role... If he has a SanSan endgame planned, why would he want D&D to cast someone soooo much older? Is it because it didn't matter because there will be no SanSan anyway? Or did he naively not think people would care/notice? Anyway, I think if they do reintroduce Sandor and reunite him with Sansa on the show, they will probably water it down (like they have been) considerably and make it one of those unconsummated passion things... Where they clearly care about each other but they don't have any physical intimacy. Maybe a zero-hour kiss before Sandor commits hari-kari during a big battle with the Others or something (LOL), but that's it. I think that is all they would be able to get away with. You think so? I don't know, I tend to think D&D didn't know wtf to do with them from the start, but you could be right. Maybe the age thing coupled with RMC's discomfort and Sophie's cluelessness just made the whole thing fall apart. Maybe that deleted scene was the tipping point. It really was awful, but I always assumed it was because it looked like it was literally thrown together at the last minute as an afterthought, but maybe it really was because nobody was on the same page and it just didn't work. The only reason I don't think that is the case is because the BoBW was so lovely...
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 13, 2015 17:48:12 GMT
They had Sansa kissing Littlefinger when Sophie wasn't still legally an adult, so why not kissing Sandor? I have no idea. I think they tried and didn't work,maybe because of the actor's ages or for any other reason,mainly because they would need buildup for their bond and they didn't do it right from the beginning. That horrible scene makes me think they tried and if they did try is because they knew they would become endgame. I don't think Rory feeling uncomfortable about is the reason it didn't work because there was no problem for Sansa smooching Aidan,who is about Rory's age. It's that these people didn't know how to make it work.If The Thorn Birds worked why not Sansa and Sandor? Because they didn't know how to do it properly and I know it isn't all that easy. I don't like Sophie either,she is pretty but the older she gets the less I like her acting and she seems less natural. Perhaps it's not her fault but the producers' or the directors' but whatever the reason she is the weakest point in this dynamics. I'm sure he would have made it work. See the chemisty he has with Arya and I have only seen short videos on tumblr. If Sophie had been like Maisie we could have had Sansan,especially because it is so subtle and there would be no fucking on screen,LOL. I think having him go with Arya is not enough reason to keep Sandor,Bron could have been in his place or anyone. I know this is silly but everything they do is silly. They changed Bolton to put Tywin in his place and the coldest most callous and insensitive father ever became a nice grandad for Arya.
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Post by sillierthings on Mar 13, 2015 17:55:14 GMT
I do have a bad feeling that Sansa is going to be Jeyne/FakeArya, and I have heard many people say that that is impossible because it "doesn't make sense", but honestly, when have D&D let a little thing like "sense" get in their way? It also doesn't make sense to eliminate Lady Stoneheart, because then Brienne's whole story arc dissolves, and it also doesn't make sense to eliminate Arianne and Bran, etc, etc, etc... There's a chance that Sansa might NOT be Jeyne, of course -- there's another theory that she'll be a Wyman Manderly replacement and whip up some People Pies, but even THAT is awful because that basically turns Sansa into a depraved mass murderer. The best we can possible hope for this season is that Sansa goes about her biz much like she does in the book -- keep her eyes open and her mouth shut, play LF's game (or at least make him believe she is), and sit back and wait for the bad guys self-destruct on their own before reclaiming her home. "Hands clean." I have thought about this too -- why even have him on the show AT ALL? And then why tease us with those precious few moments with Sansa? I think it's because of Arya. I think, like most people who have a very superficial perception of the books, D&D probably thought the Hound & Arya chapters were like some adorable/badass 'Paper Moon' reenactment, so they kept Sandor around specifically for that reason. Show-Sandor's key relationship is with Arya, not Sansa, which is made clear by the fact that it's HER that he opens up to about his burns. So basically Sandor's entire existence in the first 2 seasons were just a build-up for his wacky adventures with Arya. It personally wouldn't bother me, but I know it would bother a majority of fans, which is why it probably won't happen (again, though, why would D&D let that stop them when they clearly don't care about what the fans want/like?). It makes one wonder, though, why GRRM lobbied so hard to get RMC cast in the role... If he has a SanSan endgame planned, why would he want D&D to cast someone soooo much older? Is it because it didn't matter because there will be no SanSan anyway? Or did he naively not think people would care/notice? Anyway, I think if they do reintroduce Sandor and reunite him with Sansa on the show, they will probably water it down (like they have been) considerably and make it one of those unconsummated passion things... Where they clearly care about each other but they don't have any physical intimacy. Maybe a zero-hour kiss before Sandor commits hari-kari during a big battle with the Others or something (LOL), but that's it. I think that is all they would be able to get away with. I'm not generally bothered by age gaps in relationships on television or in books, but they way they've established it, Sandor would just be one more in a long line of old men lusting after Sansa if they end up together. It's just lame, at that point, and I guess I would not mind if Sandor's character did disappear on the show. I've seen the theories, as well, that Sansa is NOT fake Arya/Jeyne, but as you say, when has sense ever stopped D & D. I think it's quite possible. Your theory of Theon/Sansa--yes, I could see that happening. I guess she could go all Frey Pie on people, but she's all about her "sexuality" now being used as a weapon. I don't think you can use logic or sense with trying to predict the show! LOL! I tend to imagine the worst possible outcome and then hope I'm pleasantly surprised. I never have been with this show, however! I think you are spot on that they saw the Hound/Arya dynamic as more important than Sansa/Sandor. He was there for Arya, not for Sansa, and now their time is done, I don't see any point to his character anymore. Whatever happens, with Sansa in some kind of "gruesome twosome" with Littlefinger, no Hound, no Bran, Brienne seemingly rambling through snow and forest looking for a plot line, I don't know that there is any storyline that interests me at this point. Maybe Sam's if they actually give him something to do other than fret over Gilly. I certainly don't care to watch Tyrion mope across Essos, or Dany making grand speeches in that weird tone of voice or Gray Worm wax poetic about how sad he is he doesn't have genitals to use on Missandei. If I had a release date for TWOW, I'd probably not care at all for the show, but with no news in sight, you take what crumbs you can . ETA: I said this to Katie before, but The Hound and Arya have a TON of chemistry in their scenes, especially since they had him tell the burn story to her. If I had not read the books, I would have thought that they were building to some kind of Arya/Hound relationship at some point. The way she bent over him and stitched him up--that moment had more emotion and care than almost anything they had filmed between the Hound and Sansa (with the exception of the BoBW scene. That was a lovely scene on RMC's part. Though I thought Sophie was a little flat).
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Post by katie on Mar 13, 2015 18:12:06 GMT
There's a really awful double-standard I have noticed on television (in movies too) where it's somehow OKAY to show intimacy between two characters, AKA a much older man and younger girl, when it's not consensual, because, by it's very nature, everyone (viewers & characters alike) all agree that it is "wrong". But if it IS consensual but generally considered something "taboo" (again, much older man and younger girl), then it looks like it is being condoned and therefore cannot be depicted on-screen. I use Dany and Drogo as an example all the time -- oh sure, we can see graphic scenes of Drogo fucking Dany in the dirt as she cries, but it's "okay" because we all know it's "wrong". But once their relationship becomes consensual? NO MORE SEX SCENES. So, basically, if you have an older man/younger woman dynamic, it is only okay to show on-screen when she is NOT enjoying it. Kinda fucked up. So, that's why I think they (producers & viewers) are "okay" with seeing LF kissing Sansa because she didn't enjoy it, so we can all be safe in knowing that it was "wrong". If she had done the same with Sandor and ENJOYED it, omg mass hysteria!!!! Well, to be fair I only think RMC is uncomfortable because if he talks openly about Sandor & Sansa's relationship in a TRUTHFUL way, it would make him look like a creep who appears to condone a relationship between a grown man and an underage girl. RMC's not stupid, I'm sure he knows what kind of furor that would cause. I agree with The Thorn Birds analogy in a textual level, because Sandor & Sansa do seem to be playing out that sort of dynamic, but the difference is between the books and visual medium. The Thorn Birds worked as a miniseries because you had different actresses playing younger and older versions of Meggie, whereas on GoT, the same actress is playing Sansa. So even if SanSan happens in a future season with Sophie being legal age, it's still awkward because she and RMC have known and worked together since she was about 13, LOL. I can imagine that would be weird for him. "Hey, remember just a few years ago when you were barely a teenager and now you're not and I have to make out with you hahahaha omg this is awkward!" Thing is, though, the show messed up Sandor & Arya's dynamic too, with Sandor being the dumb, uncontrollable brute and Arya being the little smarty-pants who has to save the day. So, yeah, if they had flipped those dynamics, it would have been better, LOL. LMAO!
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Post by katie on Mar 13, 2015 18:18:11 GMT
Agreed, that ties in with what I said before about RMC not having a really good answer for why Sandor goes out of his way to protect Sansa because all of the context of their relationship was eliminated from the show, so yes, it really DOES look like he's just another creepy old guy who wants to get into Sansa's bloomers. Have you forgotten? CLEGANEBOWL!!!!111!! #GETHYPE!!! Bahahaha, this whole paragraph made me laugh out loud (if only to keep from crying). ;-) I'm interested in seeing what happens with Cersei (at least that storyline seems to be semi-consistent with the books still), and I am morbidly curious to see what they do with Sansa and Brienne. But other than that, yeah, everything else I couldn't really care less about at this point. I bet you 10 gold dragons he releases it next year right before Season 6!
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Post by eyesofmist on Mar 13, 2015 18:54:09 GMT
What if Sandor doesn't appear in TWOW and Sansa hooks up with Littlefinger and they have babies and play the game of thrones together? What if Bran gets lost in that cave for ever and Jon rules in Winterfell married to Arya? And if Tyrion marries Dany and gets the hot chick he's been trying to get from the beginning? Jorah can be their sworn shield anc behold how they smooch while he continues friendzoned for all eternity. Sandor will have to stay on QI and enjoy peace and quite. Everybody knows a boring place with no chicks is ideal for him. After everything we have written on our blogs and here we will look like complete idiots Oh, my god, I'll have to find a helm to cover my identity then! All this may happen on the show, mind you. But what if it happens in the books?
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Post by katie on Mar 13, 2015 19:01:18 GMT
I can certainly see all of that happening on the show. But if it happens in the books? Then GRRM is the worst troll ever.
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